Chris Sale to Boston for Moncada, Kopech, & 2 Prospects

johnnyfromspain

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Past experience has shown us that these "problems", excess of starting pitching in this case, have a way of working themselves out. The Red Sox are in an enviable position, having plentiful MLB proven pitchers, and they should be in no hurry to discard any of their valuable assets as they are well below the salary cap.

Another very important factor should be kept in mind and, unless I am mistaken, has not been mentioned in the more than 10 pages of conversation: Eduardo Rodríguez is going to pitch for Venezuela in the WBC next spring.

The best case scenario for him is that he will go through an irregular spring training, pitching meaningful innings before the actual season begins and being managed by coaching staffs who are in "do or die" game situations and furthermore whose salary is not paid for by the same organisations who pay for the players they will be managing. I dare not mention the worst case scenario which, as we all know, has taken place more often than we would like during previous WBC tournaments.

This, in my opinion, is perhaps the most important factor to follow the "wait and see" strategy before deciding to trade away any "surplus" pitching.
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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They aren't under the LT threshold at all. Never mind comfortably under. If you are looking at cot's that 180M figure includes no arbitration figures or medical and incidental benefits.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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Well, there is the whole "I can't pitch when it's hot because I sweat" thing to consider.

What's best for Eduardo's development is to be in the starting rotation, piling up innings and making improvements to carry forward. Buchholz has proven over ten years to never be able to be good and healthy at the same time. And he was atrocious for the majority of last year, to the point he couldn't even be trusted for medium leverage level bullpen work and was delegated to mop up duty. This isn't news. Deference should not be given to him at any juncture, certainly not for how he looked in a handful of starts.

Beyond that, Wright garnering an All Star nod means absolutely nothing with regards to what the rotation looks like going forward. That and a couple bucks gets him a cup of coffee and nothing more. His injury aside, the pixie dust had starting wearing off. It was a fun ride, but thinking he is going to be as consistent as Wakefield was - and it's tough even to call him consistent- is most likely a fool's errand.

They can't keep all seven. Unless they get a knockout offer for someone, Clay goes because he offers the least future value and is the least dependable. Wright goes to the pen because it's easier to stretch him out quick in case of break glass for fire and he's got the lower ceiling. And, yes, isn't reliable to even be able to throw his knuckleball in the heat.
But which starting rotation? There is that to consider here as well. Wright very well could have been losing "pixie dust" the problem is that we don't know if that's true or false since Farrell made the bone head move to pinch run for him which ultimately ended his season. Looking at Wright all I see is a guy who is an under appreciated back of the rotation guy. EdRo has the ability to be a front end guy but it doesn't help his development to tell a 23 year old that his job is safe and that he doesn't need to compete for a rotation spot after a less than stellar year overall.

One thing I agree with you on is that it's going to be near impossible to keep EdRo Buchholz Wright and Pomeranz. Someone needs to go. EdRo is untouchable so it's probably Buchholz even though he might be more valuable to the Sox than any of the other options during his 15 games he's healthy next season.
 

Drek717

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One thing I agree with you on is that it's going to be near impossible to keep EdRo Buchholz Wright and Pomeranz. Someone needs to go. EdRo is untouchable so it's probably Buchholz even though he might be more valuable to the Sox than any of the other options during his 15 games he's healthy next season.
Or he could be the worst of the four by a wide margin, like he was for the better part of 2016.

EdRo is the 4th starter and would have to lose the job, not have someone beat him out for it, because EdRo is a potential front line starter who has put up front line starter level stints already around his growing pains and injuries. He's the future.

The real battle is likely to be Pomeranz v. Wright, Both had comparable 2016's, including slumping at the end and injury concerns mitigating the validity of those late season slumps. Both have value in the bullpen, Wright as a long man with a rubber arm who could stretch out quickly in case of injury and Pomeranz as an experienced late innings left handed reliever (with a career 2.10 ERA and .543 OPS against), a legitimate gap in the Red Sox bullpen.

I wouldn't be surprised to see them decide on the later path if both pitch comparably in ST to maximize Pomeranz' value while still under control and decrease the injury risks that plagued him through his early career and flared up following a larger workload as a starter last season.
 

czar

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FIP since beginning of 2015:
Drew Pomeranz: 3.77 (4.78 with Red Sox)
Clay Buchholz: 3.99
Steven Wright: 4.16
Eduardo Rodriguez: 4.16

It seems like a difficult endeavor to objectively argue for any of those four as obviously necessary (or alternatively, not needed) under the guise of "winning the most games." I'm not sure you can just point to Wright and Pomeranz's first halves, Buchholz and ERod's second halves, etc. and say "well, if we ignore (insert random mitigating circumstances), they are clearly the #4 guy."
 

begranter

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I don't know why everyone seems to assume Rodriguez should be in the rotation. He still has a lot to work on to be the top of the rotation starter people are pegging him for. He has two pitches, questions about his mental toughness, and hasn't shown a lot of consistency. I'm totally fine with him starting in AAA with Wright and Buchholz in the rotation and Pomeranz in the pen. I'd much rather have Rodriguez as the first call up of the season for a spot start than Elias, B. Johnson, Henry Owens et al. I haven't seen enough from Rodriguez to think he's markedly better than any of the other three so it doesn't make sense to me to jettison someone else to keep him in the rotation.
And couldn't agree more with Bigguns, Wright is terribly undervalued.
 

mauf

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FIP since beginning of 2015:
Drew Pomeranz: 3.77 (4.78 with Red Sox)
Clay Buchholz: 3.99
Steven Wright: 4.16
Eduardo Rodriguez: 4.16

It seems like a difficult endeavor to objectively argue for any of those four as obviously necessary (or alternatively, not needed) under the guise of "winning the most games." I'm not sure you can just point to Wright and Pomeranz's first halves, Buchholz and ERod's second halves, etc. and say "well, if we ignore (insert random mitigating circumstances), they are clearly the #4 guy."
This is a great post.

Looking at the situation this way, I'm not sure another trade will happen. The plan might be to have four guys compete for two rotation spots, with the other two heading to the bullpen (or Pawtucket, in ERod's case).
 

Drek717

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I don't know why everyone seems to assume Rodriguez should be in the rotation. He still has a lot to work on to be the top of the rotation starter people are pegging him for. He has two pitches, questions about his mental toughness, and hasn't shown a lot of consistency. I'm totally fine with him starting in AAA with Wright and Buchholz in the rotation and Pomeranz in the pen. I'd much rather have Rodriguez as the first call up of the season for a spot start than Elias, B. Johnson, Henry Owens et al. I haven't seen enough from Rodriguez to think he's markedly better than any of the other three so it doesn't make sense to me to jettison someone else to keep him in the rotation.
And couldn't agree more with Bigguns, Wright is terribly undervalued.
I don't think it's assumed that Rodriguez should be in the rotation, but that given his age and potential upside he clearly has an advantage in winning one of the two open spots. All ST results and assessments being equal Rodriguez wins a spot.

I can definitely see the merit of sending the 23 year old pre-arb. guy who still has options back down as the emergency call-up while also ensuring that he's healthy, I just don't see Dombrowski and Farrell making that decision. They probably should as Rodriguez as 1.13 years of service time and Super Two status has bounced around 2.12 to 2.14 the past three years, so one full year of service versus spending a month in Pawtucket is a full year of pre-arb. salary. But it isn't very often that teams actually do that.
 

JimD

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I heard a brief audio clip with Sale after the trade on Buster Olney's podcast - Sale mentioned that both Pedroia and Buchholz called him after the trade was announced, which is cool to hear. Also said that Farrell called but I'd expect that from a manager.
 

joe dokes

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I heard a brief audio clip with Sale after the trade on Buster Olney's podcast - Sale mentioned that both Pedroia and Buchholz called him after the trade was announced, which is cool to hear. Also said that Farrell called but I'd expect that from a manager.
Pedroia offered to wear a child-sized "LaRoche" uniform to make Sale feel at home in the new digs. "You'll never know the difference."
 

JohntheBaptist

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So I'm hanging out at my mom's house, and she loves the Housewives and their many satellite shows. She has "Don't Be Tardy" on, the spinoff from the Housewives of Atlanta show with Kim Zolciak and her NFL husband, who I don't know because I'm not an NFL guy.

Kim has a ~20 year old daughter who seems awful and keeps talking about her new boyfriend, Michael. It sounds like he's a baseball player, so I ask my mom--"is he an MLB player?" She says yes. They live in Atlanta, so I'm trying to think of Braves named Michael. Then the daughter gets on the computer and talks about reading about her boyfriend's "105 mph pitch."

Hold on--is he a minor leaguer? Immediately after that she gets on Facetime with him and lo and behold! One Mr. Michael Kopech. He seems like a real charmer too.

So he might very well still be a huge, huge knucklehead. Anyway, it made me laugh and my mom didn't give a shit so you're all hearing about it.
 

Ale Xander

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Kopech was on WEEI earlier today saying how he was honored to be part of the package for Sale and thankful to the Red Sox for giving him a second chance.
 

Cesar Crespo

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So I'm hanging out at my mom's house, and she loves the Housewives and their many satellite shows. She has "Don't Be Tardy" on, the spinoff from the Housewives of Atlanta show with Kim Zolciak and her NFL husband, who I don't know because I'm not an NFL guy.

Kim has a ~20 year old daughter who seems awful and keeps talking about her new boyfriend, Michael. It sounds like he's a baseball player, so I ask my mom--"is he an MLB player?" She says yes. They live in Atlanta, so I'm trying to think of Braves named Michael. Then the daughter gets on the computer and talks about reading about her boyfriend's "105 mph pitch."

Hold on--is he a minor leaguer? Immediately after that she gets on Facetime with him and lo and behold! One Mr. Michael Kopech. He seems like a real charmer too.

So he might very well still be a huge, huge knucklehead. Anyway, it made me laugh and my mom didn't give a shit so you're all hearing about it.
They've been dating for awhile and looking at her, he's anything but a knucklehead.
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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Gotcha. Not as up on these things.

And great point, forgot the only cute girls available to him are the ones in Atlanta starring on Bravo reality shows.
No no. You misunderstand. His level of knuckleheadedness is directly proportional to her level of attractiveness. The hotter she is the better he must be doing at life. Or something.
 

soup17

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I would wager that's the reason.
From Pete Abe today: "Sale wore No. 49 with the White Sox but did not ask for that number with the Red Sox out of respect for Tim Wakefield. Sale will instead switch to No. 41. He wore that number in college and with the Yarmouth-Dennis Red Sox in the Cape Cod League."
 

Mugsy's Jock

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From Pete Abe today: "Sale wore No. 49 with the White Sox but did not ask for that number with the Red Sox out of respect for Tim Wakefield. Sale will instead switch to No. 41. He wore that number in college and with the Yarmouth-Dennis Red Sox in the Cape Cod League."
I wonder how that worked. Red Sox fans know and love Timmeh, but I doubt Sale would have voluntarily offered to go off #49 unless somebody told him they really wanted him to. Or that #49 was teed up to get retired this year?

When I think #41, my visceral memory is Dick Drago... then John Lackey.
 

timduhda1

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Nothing better than watching Seaver in a Sox uniform, even though it was at the end of his career.
 

timduhda1

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What I meant was is that he was a childhood hero and was finally playing for my local team. Granted he was in his early 40's, but still threw over 8 innings in his last start. That's why it was "nothing better" for me personally.
 

Dewey'sCannon

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What I meant was is that he was a childhood hero and was finally playing for my local team. Granted he was in his early 40's, but still threw over 8 innings in his last start. That's why it was "nothing better" for me personally.
Same for me. My two favorite players when I was a kid just starting to watch baseball, growing up in Poughkeepsie, NY, were Yaz and Tom Terrific (there was a popular cartoon character so named). So when the Sox got Seaver, I was convinced that it would put them over the top. Sadly, it was not to be, but I was still very excited at the time.
 

TonyPenaNeverJuiced

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Surprised no one had shared these yet, both by Cafardo:

Why Chris Sale’s delivery works for him
"Who’s talking about his delivery?” snapped Cooper. “I want to know who’s talking delivery? His delivery is fine. Arguably he’s one of the top 10 pitchers in the world right now. People are asking about his delivery. Why aren’t they talking about the other nine guys? He’s got his delivery. He’s got his keys. I’m not going to talk about what those keys are right now. He knows himself really good. His delivery is solid.”
White Sox VP believes Chris Sale will be great with Red Sox
“Does he blow off steam that gets a little too over the top? Yes,’’ said one baseball official familiar with Sale. “Does he get disturbed and react a little crazy if he doesn’t agree on something? You bet. But are these things anything to be concerned about? Absolutely not. You love the ire and the passion. That’s what makes him great.”
 

Marciano490

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So I'm hanging out at my mom's house, and she loves the Housewives and their many satellite shows. She has "Don't Be Tardy" on, the spinoff from the Housewives of Atlanta show with Kim Zolciak and her NFL husband, who I don't know because I'm not an NFL guy.

Kim has a ~20 year old daughter who seems awful and keeps talking about her new boyfriend, Michael. It sounds like he's a baseball player, so I ask my mom--"is he an MLB player?" She says yes. They live in Atlanta, so I'm trying to think of Braves named Michael. Then the daughter gets on the computer and talks about reading about her boyfriend's "105 mph pitch."

Hold on--is he a minor leaguer? Immediately after that she gets on Facetime with him and lo and behold! One Mr. Michael Kopech. He seems like a real charmer too.

So he might very well still be a huge, huge knucklehead. Anyway, it made me laugh and my mom didn't give a shit so you're all hearing about it.
Apparently it's now a 110 mph pitch.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/news/did-this-white-sox-pitching-prospect-really-just-throw-110-mph-152946863.html
 

O Captain! My Captain!

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Well, it's a pulldown drill, which means you get a running start and just throw it into a net, and it's also not a regulation ball (it's 3 oz, the real ball is a little over 5).
 

BaseballJones

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I woke up this morning and smiled. Not because we no longer have Moncada or Kopech. But because the Sox have Chris Freaking Sale.

Chris Sale - one of the best and most consistent SP in all of baseball
David Price - former CYA winner
Rick Porcello - current CYA winner
Drew Pomeranz - 2016 all star
Steven Wright - 2016 all star
Eduardo Rodriguez - up and coming young stud

I think that's a pretty damned good rotation and I love having the ability to throw out a quality starter every game.

It's going to be 52 degrees here today. We are getting closer to spring training and opening day.

I can't wait.
 

ellis28

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Jul 18, 2005
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I'm with you. I had a huge Kopech boner... but Sale is another dimension. Give up talent to get a stud.

Wearing a tee in CT today was a bonus! Yeah 52.
 

Rasputin

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I woke up this morning and smiled. Not because we no longer have Moncada or Kopech. But because the Sox have Chris Freaking Sale.

Chris Sale - one of the best and most consistent SP in all of baseball
David Price - former CYA winner
Rick Porcello - current CYA winner
Drew Pomeranz - 2016 all star
Steven Wright - 2016 all star
Eduardo Rodriguez - up and coming young stud

I think that's a pretty damned good rotation and I love having the ability to throw out a quality starter every game.

It's going to be 52 degrees here today. We are getting closer to spring training and opening day.

I can't wait.
I wouldn't have made the trade, but I wholeheartedly endorse this assessment of the current situation. There aren't going to be many teams that have a rotation as good and as deep. There aren't going to be many--perhaps any--teams that have a lineup as good and as deep. We have good to excellent fielders almost everywhere and a bullpen that looks like it can get the job done and get deeper as the season goes on.

Just stay healthy.
 

grimshaw

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I wouldn't have made the trade, but I wholeheartedly endorse this assessment of the current situation. There aren't going to be many teams that have a rotation as good and as deep. There aren't going to be many--perhaps any--teams that have a lineup as good and as deep. We have good to excellent fielders almost everywhere and a bullpen that looks like it can get the job done and get deeper as the season goes on.

Just stay healthy.
And the most athletic team they have ever fielded. Especially if Swihart ever catches again.
Plus a full year of Benintendi and no Ortiz probably makes it the fastest and best base running team in the league (again).
 

drbretto

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I wouldn't have made the trade, but I wholeheartedly endorse this assessment of the current situation. There aren't going to be many teams that have a rotation as good and as deep. There aren't going to be many--perhaps any--teams that have a lineup as good and as deep. We have good to excellent fielders almost everywhere and a bullpen that looks like it can get the job done and get deeper as the season goes on.

Just stay healthy.
100 wins? :)
 

Cesar Crespo

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110 MPH? Meh. He hit his roommate harder than that last spring.
Stuff like this makes me think Kopech ultimately ends up in the pen after he comes back from his future TJ surgery. He always seems to throw as hard as possible. Of course every pitcher is at risk for injury.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I wouldn't have made the trade, but I wholeheartedly endorse this assessment of the current situation. There aren't going to be many teams that have a rotation as good and as deep. There aren't going to be many--perhaps any--teams that have a lineup as good and as deep. We have good to excellent fielders almost everywhere and a bullpen that looks like it can get the job done and get deeper as the season goes on.

Just stay healthy.
This team should be great offensively, but if somehow Moreland, Sandoval, and the C position doesn't work it... it could get ugly. Benintendi should be ok too, but him being slightly below average for the year wouldn't be shocking either. We are going into the year with 3 or 4 question marks on offense and it's not that hard to envision a scenario where a couple of Moreland, Sandoval, C, Benintendi are sporting sub .700 OPS lines with no Ortiz to make up for it, but a scenario where all 4 fall flat on their face isn't very likely either. We have very little 1b/3b depth as well. Offense is also on the rise again as a whole, so some of the offensive loss may look covered, but actually isn't. (1000 more runs scored in 2015 than 2014, 1000 more in 2016 than 2015, time to start readjusting again)

Our bullpen should be a strength too but Carson Smith is coming back from injury, Joe Kelly is unproven, Thornburg has had arm issues, and Kimbrel is coming off his career worst season. The rotation is pretty godly though, a 4-6 of Pomeranz, Wright and EdRod would be a good enough mid rotation for most teams, nevermind back end.

I'm a homer so I'm right with you with 99+ wins, but this team is counting on a few things going absolutely right. All of those things individually have a great chance of happening. All of those things happening together, not so much. Then again, every World Series winner in the history of forever required that things broke their way.


And the most athletic team they have ever fielded. Especially if Swihart ever catches again.
Plus a full year of Benintendi and no Ortiz probably makes it the fastest and best base running team in the league (again).
I'd guess a lot of that depends on how Sandoval performs and if he doesn't, how quickly they replace him.
 

nvalvo

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With health, this could be a 100 win team if they played in a weaker division, but I can't see it happening in the AL East. Toronto, NY, and Baltimore are all pretty good.

(Unless the pitchers all stay healthy, Benintendi is as good as we hope, and Sandoval GOES OFF.)
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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With health, this could be a 100 win team if they played in a weaker division, but I can't see it happening in the AL East. Toronto, NY, and Baltimore are all pretty good.

(Unless the pitchers all stay healthy, Benintendi is as good as we hope, and Sandoval GOES OFF.)
Don't sleep on Tampa. They'll be streaky, but when they're on, they'll be able to beat anyone. Lots of pop in that lineup to go with all the swing and miss. Pitching should be pretty good.

But yeah, the only AL team with a real shot at 100 is Cleveland, considering how bad Chicago and Minnesota will be. KC and Detroit will both be periphery wild card teams, and even that is a stretch for KC after Ventura's passing.
 

nvalvo

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Don't sleep on Tampa. They'll be streaky, but when they're on, they'll be able to beat anyone. Lots of pop in that lineup to go with all the swing and miss. Pitching should be pretty good.

But yeah, the only AL team with a real shot at 100 is Cleveland, considering how bad Chicago and Minnesota will be. KC and Detroit will both be periphery wild card teams, and even that is a stretch for KC after Ventura's passing.
Good point about Tampa. The Forsythe trade looked like a big step back for 2017, though, even if I love the trade for them in the longer term.
 

DJnVa

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Yeah, their numbers seemed pretty average last year--OPS+ of 100, worst BA in AL, middle of the pack SLG, 14th in SLG, and that's with Forsythe.
 

Rasputin

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With health, this could be a 100 win team if they played in a weaker division, but I can't see it happening in the AL East. Toronto, NY, and Baltimore are all pretty good.

(Unless the pitchers all stay healthy, Benintendi is as good as we hope, and Sandoval GOES OFF.)
We won 93 last year even though something was almost always going terribly wrong.

Stay healthy, get a little luck, and who knows what could happen?
 

Cesar Crespo

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Don't sleep on Tampa. They'll be streaky, but when they're on, they'll be able to beat anyone. Lots of pop in that lineup to go with all the swing and miss. Pitching should be pretty good.

But yeah, the only AL team with a real shot at 100 is Cleveland, considering how bad Chicago and Minnesota will be. KC and Detroit will both be periphery wild card teams, and even that is a stretch for KC after Ventura's passing.
Is Chicago really going to be that bad? They could still make a few more trades, but as it stands, they should still win 70+ games. If the rumors outside of Chicago are true and they do move Moncada to CF, it would allow them to keep Frazier in the lineup if somehow Moncada were ready sooner rather than later. Although Hahn reportedly sees him as a 2b which makes you wonder what is up with Brett Lawrie.
 
Feb 17, 2017
2
Just out, Cameron's take on Dombrowski's WTF trade for Sale (i.e., Schwarber + Syndergaard to save $6.5 M by dumping Buchholz, to get under the salary cap):

For the second year in a row, my favorite move of the winter features a rebuilding team trading a starting pitcher for a package of quality young players. Unlike last year’s Shelby Miller heist, though, this year the seller is surrendering an actual ace. Because Sale is legitimately one of the best pitchers alive, the buyer is unlikely to regret this deal as swiftly as Arizona regretted their go-for-it blockbuster, but if you’re a White Sox fan, you still have to be pretty thrilled with what the team got back for their franchise arm.

And I say that as someone who maintains a bit of skepticism about Moncada’s short-term offensive value, given his elevated strikeout rates. Swinging through minor-league stuff can be a legitimate red flag, and Moncada may very well take the Byron Buxton path, struggling for a while while the hype dies down. But the upside combination of Moncada and Kopech — whom I’ve heard compared to Noah Syndergaard this winter — is the kind of package you don’t pass up if you’re looking long term.