Active Hall of Famers

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag said:

The GOAT conversation doesn't even have Randy Moss as a polite mention. He is, quite literally, 7,000 yards short of the GOAT, and to frame up what I perceive to be your blind spot a bit better, Moss was a Raider for two seasons, at ages 28 and 29. In those two seasons, he dogged it despite having a huge contract and racked up 1,558 receiving yards over both seasons. At age 39 Jerry Rice signed with the Raiders and in his first two seasons racked up 2,350 yards receiving in two seasons.

Moss is fun to watch on tv now, but unfortunately for many, his form of asshole cost his teams production. Owens' form was just goofy and annoyed teammates, but year in and year out he was an amazing receiver.

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Moss was definitely immature at the end of his Oakland tenure and in that disaster NE / MIN / TEN season, but his lack of production with the Raiders is a little overblown. He put up 1005 yards and 8 TDs on a terrible (4-12) Raiders team his first year with Kerry Collins throwing to him. 2006 was a disaster all-around. Art Shell was the coach; he hadn't coached in more than five years and would never again afterwards. Aaron Brooks and Andrew Walter were the starting QBs; they started a combined one game ever again in the NFL. Walter had a 3 TD / 13 INT, completed 53.3% of his passes, and was sacked on 14.3% of his drop-backs but someone managed to win two games; Brooks (3 / 8, 57.3%, 11.9%) went 0-8.

The striking thing about Moss' career is that he played with several different quarterbacks and virtually all of them had career seasons with him. Randall Cunningham had his best passing year in '98. Then Cunningham got hurt and Jeff George had his best year. Daunte Culpepper was great with Moss and his performance immediately went to shit - at age 28 - when Moss left. Brady broke basically every record with Moss. Matt Cassel had his best season with Moss. I think this key to the Moss argument - you can reasonably argue he played with worse quarterbacks (noting that he played only two years with Brady) than Owens - but made them look good.

Owens definitely gets the nod on longevity - Moss was done after his age-32 season, while Owens was still useful through all the way up through his age-37 season. It's worth noting that Moss was extremely durable; he played 13 games his final seasons in Minnesota and Oakland and a full 16 games every other season of his career.

(Sorry, I'm kind of cross-responded to some of your other notes - yeah, Rice is the best WR ever, no doubt)

Moss had such a fast and bright start to his career, while Terrell Eldorado Owens didn't have his first 1,000 yard season or 10 TD season until age 25. 2003 wild card game against the New York Football Giants, in one of the biggest playoff comebacks in NFL history, He had 70 yards, a touchdown, and two two point conversions in the last 20 minutes.

Rice is the GOAT WR. Randy Moss is 39 and is on TV. Rice put up a 1,000 yard season at age 40.

I'd add Devin Hester to the list.

Did I miss mention of Antonio Gates? Not Tony Gonzalez, but HOF worthy career.

Apparently Joe Thomas has never missed a snap

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag said:

Bruce played with top flight talent for a few years, but look at the LA Rams QBs during his career and remember that for a number of years, Warner was uneven and Marc Bulger always sucked. He started with the Rams in 1994.....with Chris Miller, then Tony Banks, then the Warner/Bulger "strikes of brilliance surrounded by What the heck???" era. He got two amazing years from Warner, but Warner then went on to not start for the Giants for a few years for a reason.

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Just a minor correction Yammer...Warner only played 1 year with the Giants..He started the first 9 games but then in a controversial move (at the time anyway) he was replaced by Eli Manning. He then went to the Cards where he replaced Matt Leinhart as the stater after being signed to be the backup. Your post infers that Warner sat on the bench as the Giants QB for a number of seasons. Anyway I love your work Yammer but just wanted to correct the history.

JJ Watt has been mentioned but he's a 3x nfl defensive player of the year. Even if he never makes another pro-bowl it would tough to see him not get in. The only other player to win it 3x is LT.

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag said:

Bruce played with top flight talent for a few years, but look at the LA Rams QBs during his career and remember that for a number of years, Warner was uneven and Marc Bulger always sucked.

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Warner only had 3 full seasons with the Rams and was really good in all of them:

led league in completion percentage each year
led league in yards once (over 4300 another year)
led league in TDs twice
led league in QB rating twice

25 of the 26 times he led the league in some category was during those 3 seasons in LA.

The only other year he played a lot was 2002 (just 6 starts) but Bruce was still over 1000 yards that year. Bruce may or may not have HOF case, but if he doesn't it wasn't because Warner was uneven.

Warner is truly one of the cooler stories out there.

DrewDawg said:

Warner only had 3 full seasons with the Rams and was really good in all of them:

led league in completion percentage each year
led league in yards once (over 4300 another year)
led league in TDs twice
led league in QB rating twice

25 of the 26 times he led the league in some category was during those 3 seasons in LA.

The only other year he played a lot was 2002 (just 6 starts) but Bruce was still over 1000 yards that year. Bruce may or may not have HOF case, but if he doesn't it wasn't because Warner was uneven.

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I was lazy with my words there. Warner was hurt his last two seasons - had I googled that I would have seen it, which was a miss on my part - and was viewed as not being a viable QB going forward, leading to the Rams letting him go to NYC, where he was uneven on his best days. My point was much more that Bruce wasn't fueled by Warner in his 16 year career all that much, despite the tight association between the two in the minds of fans.

Old Fart Tree said:

Warner is truly one of the cooler stories out there.

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He really is.

Old Fart Tree said:

Warner is truly one of the cooler stories out there.

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His three Super Bowl appearances are still one, two, and three on the all-time single game super bowl passing yardage list

Was (Not Wasdin) said:

His three Super Bowl appearances are still one, two, and three on the all-time single game super bowl passing yardage list

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He also threw a pick six in two of those games

That Harrison taint was like watching an accident in super slow mo.

Marciano490 said:

That Harrison taint was like watching an accident in super slow mo.

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It was an instructional video on "How not to tackle".

Jason Witten is a lock. 8th on the all time receptions list and was a good all-around tight end. Witten, if you include his blocking and longevity might have been the best or 2nd best tight end ever. I think peak Gronk was/is better but with Witten you have longevity and health and production. He will likely finish in the top 25 for receiving yards before he is done (28th now) and top 20 is possible depending on how long he plays and how effective he will be (/captain obvious).

In the passing era I think there are 3-6 guys who will be talked about for GOAT: Tony Gonzalez is probably the clear #1 and Witten 1b, with Gronk, Shannon Sharpe, Gates, Graham, and Olsen rounding up the rear. Olsen and Gronk have (hopefully) years left. Graham has rebounded as well.

Gore gets extra credit for being an automatic catch across the middle in Tecmo Bowl.

He's admittedly an extreme long shot, but Matthew Slater will potentially warrant some level of consideration. 3 Time All Pro, 5 time pro bowler as special teamer. The limited number of players enshrined yearly works heavily against ST's and non counting stat players, but at some point they may want to correct the lack of representation from ST.

Super Nomario said:

The striking thing about Moss' career is that he played with several different quarterbacks and virtually all of them had career seasons with him. Randall Cunningham had his best passing year in '98. Then Cunningham got hurt and Jeff George had his best year. Daunte Culpepper was great with Moss and his performance immediately went to shit - at age 28 - when Moss left. Brady broke basically every record with Moss. Matt Cassel had his best season with Moss. I think this key to the Moss argument - you can reasonably argue he played with worse quarterbacks (noting that he played only two years with Brady) than Owens - but made them look good.

Owens definitely gets the nod on longevity - Moss was done after his age-32 season, while Owens was still useful through all the way up through his age-37 season. It's worth noting that Moss was extremely durable; he played 13 games his final seasons in Minnesota and Oakland and a full 16 games every other season of his career.

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Owens was certainly more durable, but they ended up with similar stats, and Moss did it in way less time. In a given year, it was a good probability that Moss was more productive.

I also think that the stats strongly understate Moss's impact on the game - I think more than any receiver I've ever seen (including Rice) - Moss scared defensive coordinators. I've never seen DCs allocate so many resources to covering one player on a consistent basis. Bracket coverage was pretty much the norm, and bracket with another safety shaded over to that side of the field wasn't uncommon - and he'd still beat it.

I really wish we had better stats - because it's really tough to isolate anything in football - we have really transparent numbers with Moss - pretty much everywhere he showed up, you saw a huge improvement in the quarterback's stats.

TO is tougher to tell though - the baseline he starts with is Steve Young and Jerry Rice - so what the hell is the baseline there?. Then he shows up in PHI, and McNabb has a career year, but TO misses half of the next season, McNabb misses a couple of games, and goes back to his baseline. Then he shows up in Dallas, and it's Romo's first year as a starter, so there's no real way to tell what Romo should have looked like.

With Moss, we have clear baselines of previous performance for most of the QBs, or we have later data (like Cassell flopping in KC)

SMU_Sox said:

Jason Witten is a lock. 8th on the all time receptions list and was a good all-around tight end. Witten, if you include his blocking and longevity might have been the best or 2nd best tight end ever. I think peak Gronk was/is better but with Witten you have longevity and health and production. He will likely finish in the top 25 for receiving yards before he is done (28th now) and top 20 is possible depending on how long he plays and how effective he will be (/captain obvious).

In the passing era I think there are 3-6 guys who will be talked about for GOAT: Tony Gonzalez is probably the clear #1 and Witten 1b, with Gronk, Shannon Sharpe, Gates, Graham, and Olsen rounding up the rear. Olsen and Gronk have (hopefully) years left. Graham has rebounded as well.

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I would not say that he was a lock at this point. He and Antonio Gates are right on the borderline together IMO. Calvin Johnson retired with as many yards as Witten has now.......in 5 fewer seasons, and the conventional wisdom seems to be that Megatron will not be enshrined (let's see about that though. People were incensed when Jim Brown retired with lots still left in the tank and people healed up plenty quick). If he has 2-3 more strong seasons then I think he has a decent shot, but remember.....the Hall only has 8 TEs in it and he is in an era where there are a lot of good resumes, and he played on a team with a great O-line, which will take away from the shine on his blocking.

I feel the same way about Witten and Gates as i do about Bruce and Andre Johnson. I would certainly not be upset if either one or both made it, but I am a bit skeptical that they will.

Hoodie Sleeves said:

Owens was certainly more durable, but they ended up with similar stats, and Moss did it in way less time. In a given year, it was a good probability that Moss was more productive.

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Look again. TO only played one extra season, and has an extra 600 yards and comparable catches. That is the whole focus of the discussion; if you want to say "Randy Moss COULD play better than TO" well.......OK, I will give you that. But he had a bunch of seasons when he chose not to. TO on the other hand was a dickhole in different ways, but once he got between the lines he didn't have an "off" switch.

The Patriots acquired Moss for a 4th round draft pick when he was in his prime because it was he best the Raiders could get for him. Think about that for a minute.

Is there another active head coach who is a HOF'er besides BB?
I don't think so. Tomlin, Carroll, Payton, Harbaugh, McCarthy, Reid are in a discussion but have work to do.

RIFan said:

He's admittedly an extreme long shot, but Matthew Slater will potentially warrant some level of consideration. 3 Time All Pro, 5 time pro bowler as special teamer. The limited number of players enshrined yearly works heavily against ST's and non counting stat players, but at some point they may want to correct the lack of representation from ST.

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Stop. Tasker's not in. One punter and one full time kicker are in. Hester likely won't make it. There is no precedent for special teamers like Slater getting in and hardly any for guys like Lechler or Ghost.

ifmanis5 said:

Is there another active head coach who is a HOF'er besides BB?
I don't think so. Tomlin, Carroll, Payton, Harbaugh, McCarthy, Reid are in a discussion but have work to do.

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I don't think so....it seems like the minimum is:

2 SB wins, or
Muliple SB appearances, or
1 SB win and a significant record at a second franchise.

Carroll is probably the closest and may get in, and if any of the folks you name can win another SB then they probably make it in.....but I don't think any others are in.

I think Carroll, Reid and Tomlin get in. Tomlin is still only 44 and seems primed to be the coach in Pittsburgh for the long haul, although the eventual transition from Ben will be a huge test.

Reid will get consideration for having built two different franchises into contenders, much like George Allen.

These guys also have good relationships with the national media which helps at selection time.

It's really compelling stuff to look at T.O. vs Moss. I, like many others, first automatically assumed that Moss was better than Owens....even if not by a whole lot. But in addition to seeing the numbers very close, Yammer makes a great point that Owens truly was a total beast on game day and never took Sundays off, and he definitely gets kudos for being a monster in the Superbowl playing on one leg. One of the few Eagles who were scary that game.

It does feel like Moss had more talent, but careers aren't measured on talent.

How is Owens poisoning an entire season in 2005 being weighed in all these "always brought it" narratives? I mean, he took a lot of Sundays off that year.

They are effectively the same assholes with the same stats. I'd take Moss because of the longball [edit: I had forgotten about Denny Green's WCO dalliances. It's interesting that all three of the top wideouts ever had a significant portion of their careers in the West Coast Offense.]

bradmahn said:

How is Owens poisoning an entire season in 2005 being weighed in all these "always brought it" narratives? I mean, he took a lot of Sundays off that year.

They are effectively the same assholes with the same stats. I'd take Moss because of the longball [edit: I had forgotten about Denny Green's WCO dalliances. It's interesting that all three of the top wideouts ever had a significant portion of their careers in the West Coast Offense.]

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He averaged 100 yards per game through the 7 games he played before Reid booted him off the team. But yes, he did take a dump on the team and we did account for it.

One of the things for me in evaluating execeptional offensive players like Moss and Owens is the degree to which teams had to game-plan specifically around someone. My perception is that Moss was a uniquely dangerous receiver, perhaps the best deep threat in NFL history and defending against that threat impacts the entire defense in a way that I think Owens did not (though obviously, teams had to gameplan around TO as well). That perception may or may not be backed up by data---I quickly looked for stats on long TDs/long receptions and couldn't find it---would be interesting to see.

Overall, I don't disagree with what I think is the theme here---at his best Moss was superior, and Owens was more consistently good (and certainly for a longer period). How we value 'peak impact' vs 'longevity and consistency' as well as 'malignancy of cancer caused' is highly subjective, but that's part of the fun of the debate...

PedroKsBambino said:

One of the things for me in evaluating execeptional offensive players like Moss and Owens is the degree to which teams had to game-plan specifically around someone. My perception is that Moss was a uniquely dangerous receiver, perhaps the best deep threat in NFL history and defending against that threat impacts the entire defense in a way that I think Owens did not (though obviously, teams had to gameplan around TO as well). That perception may or may not be backed up by data---I quickly looked for stats on long TDs/long receptions and couldn't find it---would be interesting to see.

Overall, I don't disagree with what I think is the theme here---at his best Moss was superior, and Owens was more consistently good (and certainly for a longer period). How we value 'peak impact' vs 'longevity and consistency' as well as 'malignancy of cancer caused' is highly subjective, but that's part of the fun of the debate...

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Sounds a bit like the old debate between Barry Sanders and Emmitt Smith. Ultimately I think both get into the Hall and sit one level below Rice in the race for GOAT.

ifmanis5 said:

Is there another active head coach who is a HOF'er besides BB?
I don't think so. Tomlin, Carroll, Payton, Harbaugh, McCarthy, Reid are in a discussion but have work to do.

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If Tony Dungy can get in with I believe one super bowl win and not an incredibly long coaching tenure, anything is possible.

Kliq said:

If Tony Dungy can get in with I believe one super bowl win and not an incredibly long coaching tenure, anything is possible.

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His roommate died though.

richgedman'sghost said:

Just a minor correction Yammer...Warner only played 1 year with the Giants..He started the first 9 games but then in a controversial move (at the time anyway) he was replaced by Eli Manning. He then went to the Cards where he replaced Matt Leinhart as the stater after being signed to be the backup. Your post infers that Warner sat on the bench as the Giants QB for a number of seasons. Anyway I love your work Yammer but just wanted to correct the history.

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I think this thread has shown that I was drinking heavily during Kurt Warner's career. Thank you for pointing that out though, you were right, I got Kurt Warner'/ career all spun around.

Also, thank you for the kind words, but it is a bit more customary to open your post with "with all due respect."

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag said:

I think this thread has shown that I was drinking heavily during Kurt Warner's career. Thank you for pointing that out though, you were right, I got Kurt Warner'/ career all spun around.

Also, thank you for the kind words, but it is a bit more customary to open your post with "with all due respect."

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"With all due respect" serves the same function at the start of a sentence as "I'm not a racist, but..."

If someone says with all due respect one more time we're gonna summon Rev.

Oh crap.

Honest question: am I insane? I don't think Owens - amazing as he was - is even in the conversation with moss and rice. It's like I can't even imagine it, my bias is that strong.

Old Fart Tree said:

Honest question: am I insane? I don't think Owens - amazing as he was - is even in the conversation with moss and rice. It's like I can't even imagine it, my bias is that strong.

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I think you can err on the side of not being even close to rational on this stuff man. This is a great example of where there are numbers and you are a numbers guy. And the somewhat significant irony is that your brand is playing hard, and the difference between these two guys is that one guy had the ability to shift into third gear and did it for long stretches twice during his prime, then a bunch later in his career, whereas the other guy had no ability to dog it between the lines. When you walked in to the discussion did you even realize that TO had more yardage for his career than Moss, despite the two of them playing basically the same number of seasons? And Moss wasn't injury prone.

Moss wasn't even in the same area code as Rice. That is meth-fueled crazy talk.

In the hypothetical Space Jam, one game against the aliens, situation, if Moss had his head in the right spot and is early years with the Vikings, or 2007 Randy then he was slamming, I would take Moss (assuming Jerry Rice was dead or busy with an endorsement event that day). But if it is a season randomly selected from a player'a career and it's going to be 16 games to decide the future of the planet, and I get what I get, it's TO all day.

One final note. While Moss was an amazing deep threat and red zone threat, whereas TO was only very, very good in those areas, TO would catch balls in traffic all day long. Not something Moss would do.

maufman said:

It's more that you're overrating Moss than underrating Owens. Moss had the physical gifts to be the second coming of Rice, but he didn't fully realize that potential.

It's technically off-topic, since he's retired now, but what do people think about Megatron's chances? HOF voters have historically valued peak performance highly, and Johnson was hands-down the league's best WR in his prime; I'm not sure he gets dinged too badly for not having a second act to his career, like Larry Fitzgerald (who is a lock) is doing right now.

He might not get in, but I think Megatron's chances are better than those of counting-stat guys like Andre Johnson or Reggie Wayne.

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Megatron is going to be fascinating. The rumblings right now seem to indicate that he won't be elected, but time heals many wounds. I am cautiously optimistic.

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag said:

and he played on a team with a great O-line, which will take away from the shine on his blocking.

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Are you referring to Witten here or Gates? Because Witten played with some pretty God fucking awful offensive lines for the better part of his career. I know Dallas has a good offensive line now but that's a recent phenomenon. Like in the past three years, recent. That should do absolutely nothing to take away from his resume as a blocker. Also, if we're giving Owens credit for playing on a broken leg (mad respect for that), Witten has to be given credit for playing with a broken jaw and a ruptured spleen. And for running 30 yards without his helmet - sorry, couldn't resist that one.

Speaking of Owens, this talk of Moss vs Owens is depressing me greatly. No one, outside of Jerry Jones, did more to destroy the Cowboys franchise than those two players. One by virtue of being passed over in the draft and making it his personal mission to humiliate them any chance he got; the other by coming here as a FA and destroying the franchise from within.

Witten is 2nd all time for TEs in receptions and receiving yards, and was good as a blocker. He has 10 pro bowl appearances. No one eligible with 10+ pro bowls is not in the hall of fame. Edit: He is a top 5 GOAT at the position and aside from Tony Gonzalez has been the best overall tight end in the modern NFL over his career.

Was Gates as good of a blocker? I remember thinking over the years that he was not. Witten has also stayed on the field more than Gates and longevity/health play a role in the discussion. Another edit: As many times as Gates has been injured I expected to see him miss more games. When I reviewed his profile he never even missed half a season before and often played the full 16 games. I don't have an opinion on if Gates is an HoFer or not but I think Witten gets in within the first 4-5 years of eligibility.

I misssed most of Rice's career. Was his dominance the result of physical tools or playing with great QBs or a little of both? I don't ever remember him being the biggest fastest or strongest guy on the field. What made him so special?

I ask that in the context of comparisons with Megateon, Owens and Moss who were all extremely physically gifted.

Bosoxen said:

Are you referring to Witten here or Gates? Because Witten played with some pretty God fucking awful offensive lines for the better part of his career. I know Dallas has a good offensive line now but that's a recent phenomenon. Like in the past three years, recent. That should do absolutely nothing to take away from his resume as a blocker. Also, if we're giving Owens credit for playing on a broken leg (mad respect for that), Witten has to be given credit for playing with a broken jaw and a ruptured spleen. And for running 30 yards without his helmet - sorry, couldn't resist that one.

Speaking of Owens, this talk of Moss vs Owens is depressing me greatly. No one, outside of Jerry Jones, did more to destroy the Cowboys franchise than those two players. One by virtue of being passed over in the draft and making it his personal mission to humiliate them any chance he got; the other by coming here as a FA and destroying the franchise from within.

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I was referring to Witten, but you are right. I had thought the Dallas line was better than it was early in his career. I don't know, I have never considered him a great blocker, but he has always been a tremendous acquirer of first downs. If I needed someone to run to the stick and hold on to the ball I honestly can't think of anyone I would rather have.

Witten may suffer from playing in an era with dominant tight ends. Between Gronkowski, Gonzalez, Graham, Reed, Olson et al, he has spent a lot of time as the 3rd or 4th best TE in the league. But with that said, he has spent a lot of time in that top flight. Like I said before, if he retired tomorrow I would view him as a borderline case, but if he adds 2-3 more good to great seasons on he would have a pretty good shot.

Marciano490 said:

I misssed most of Rice's career. Was his dominance the result of physical tools or playing with great QBs or a little of both? I don't ever remember him being the biggest fastest or strongest guy on the field. What made him so special?

I ask that in the context of comparisons with Megateon, Owens and Moss who were all extremely physically gifted.

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There was very little he didn't do well. In an era where you could get away with a lot more in pass coverage, he could shed blocks immensely well, he ran his routes to the dot (which is one reason why the West Coast offense made him look so good), he had fantastic hands, he had the natural ability to post up against a CB to give himself the right position, and he was fast not just in a straight line speed manner, but he also had a 5th gear, a burst, that would shake a lot of coverage.

He also trained like a mofo. You would enjoy reading about his training, he was no dummy.

I suspect Andre Johnson will get in eventually. Top 10 all-time in receptions and yards with likes of David Carr, Tony Banks, Sage Rosenfels, Matt Schaub, Matt Leinart, Case Keenum, TJ Yates, Ryan Mallet and Ryan Fitzpatrick throwing to him, and with all due respect to Owen Daniels and Kevin Walter, he never played with another real receiving threat. In fact, during his entire Texans career, Walter was the only other WR he played with who put up more than 800 yards in a season, and he only did it once, in 2008, when Johnson went for 115/1575/8.

With the logjam at WR, he may end up outside looking in, but in addition to the counting stats, I get the sense that he's generally well-regarded by sports writers and he has meant a ton to the Texans franchise. Plus he housed Cortland Finnegan that one time. That was great.

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag said:

There was very little he didn't do well. In an era where you could get away with a lot more in pass coverage, he could shed blocks immensely well, he ran his routes to the dot (which is one reason why the West Coast offense made him look so good), he had fantastic hands, he had the natural ability to post up against a CB to give himself the right position, and he was fast not just in a straight line speed manner, but he also had a 5th gear, a burst, that would shake a lot of coverage.

He also trained like a mofo. You would enjoy reading about his training, he was no dummy.

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I think three things really stick out about Rice for me, as somebody who grew up watching him. The first was that he was the high priest of yards after the catch. He made so many five-yard quick slants into 20-30 yards (or more) plays because he would run a perfect slant, catch the ball in a dead run, and then just go. He was big and strong enough that he often broke the first tackle, and if he had space he was gone.

The second was that I practically never remember him dropping the ball. His dad was a bricklayer and he always said that he got his hands from not wanting to drop bricks on his foot. If Rice was the intended target and the pass was accurate, he was catching the ball. Period.

The third is he set new standards for training and work ethic. Running up the Hill every day, that kind of stuff. He has the longest career of any non-kicker in NFL history and missed something like 20 games in his career, 14 of them because Warren Sapp committed a personal foul against him in a Week 1 game that tore his ACL and MCL. An injury Rice recovered so quickly from that he played the last game of the season, which is staggering. People forget he had a whole second act to his career after the 49ers and became a Top-10 possession receiver in Oakland in his late 30s.

It's impossible to say that Rice didn't benefit from playing on great offensive teams with great QBs. He did, and obviously his career numbers would not be anything close to what they are if he had been drafted (for example) by the Pats and was catching balls from Tony Eason in Raymond Berry's offense for the first 5-7 years of his career. He went from Montana to Young, and then even Jeff Garcia who was pretty good too (though not obviously on the level of the other two guys), and generally played in a passing scheme with multiple other weapons. He's the best receiver of all time, but much like we'll never know what Brady would have done without BB, we'll never know what Rice would have done with a mere mortal QB throwing to him.

Still, his numbers are so far and away better than the next best receiver that I'm not sure it much matters.

To me there were three things that made Rice great, two of which Spacemans Bong mentions above. He had ridiculous hands and caught everything that was close to him, and while he wasn't your classic burner in terms of speed, he seemed to have another gear once he caught the ball. My main recollection of Rice is catching a ball with the DB on his hip and then Rice just pulling away with those long strides.

The other thing that made him great was route-running. I think he's the best route runner of all time. He could set up his defender so many different ways. He just got open more than anyone else. This is also IMO a function of his legendary work ethic. I just think he ran more routes in practice than anyone else.

Ralphwiggum said:

To me there were three things that made Rice great, two of which Spacemans Bong mentions above. He had ridiculous hands and caught everything that was close to him, and while he wasn't your classic burner in terms of speed, he seemed to have another gear once he caught the ball. My main recollection of Rice is catching a ball with the DB on his hip and then Rice just pulling away with those long strides.

The other thing that made him great was route-running. I think he's the best route runner of all time. He could set up his defender so many different ways. He just got open more than anyone else. This is also IMO a function of his legendary work ethic. I just think he ran more routes in practice than anyone else.

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1. This is what I remember about him too. You HAD to keep him in front of you because if he got a step on you, he was gone.

2. It's him or Largent for best route runner. You could draw a huge scribble with a spirograph on a piece of paper and both of those guys could run it as a route perfectly.

Rice is before my time but from highlights/ old games he was as close to a flawless receiver as there as ever been. Capable of going deep or short and making something happen, capable of taking a quick slant to the house, good blocker and had the strength to fight for balls, obviously great and hands and the best route runner ever.

I think the thing that puzzled me about Rice until so went back and watched him is that the receivers that followed him (Owens, Moss, Calvin Johnson, Fitz) were so physically gifted that it was obvious they would put up big numbers, but a guy like Rice put up bigger numbers and he looks average in comparison to those guys. I think the closest guy now to Rice is Antonio Brown; not as physically talented as Beckham, Bryant or Julio Jones but when you compare the numbers and watch them play it's obvious they are the best WRs in the game.

Ralphwiggum said:

It's impossible to say that Rice didn't benefit from playing on great offensive teams with great QBs. He did, and obviously his career numbers would not be anything close to what they are if he had been drafted (for example) by the Pats and was catching balls from Tony Eason in Raymond Berry's offense for the first 5-7 years of his career. ...

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Rice was, in fact, drafted with a pick that originally belonged to the Pats. They swapped a bunch of picks that year with the 49ers and traded down from 16 to 28 in the first round, where they took the immortal Trevor Matich.