2016-2017 NBA Game Thread

southshoresoxfan

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1. Is it even possible for a human to fix their reflexes? How are reflexes considered intention to where the player should be penalized? I will say that at least one of Draymonds in the past was absolutely intentional. To me this one clearly wasn't as neither his foot nor knee extended it was only his leg that was airborne upon contract.

2. The foul was on the Rockets player. If you were to give another player the benefit of the doubt there wouldn't have been a foul even called on him.

3. It really ain't that unconventional. It's fairly common for a player to spread their limbs on contact. We've seen many do this with their arms as well as their legs. Again if it isn't intentional what is there to fix? It's not illegal if it isn't intentional.
How did Draymond get a SOSH account without anyone of us noticing?

Id also love to see a mockup of how a human being can extend ones leg and not their knee and or foot. It woulf be a fascinating study in human anatomy TBH
 

Smokey Joe

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1. Is it even possible for a human to fix their reflexes? How are reflexes considered intention to where the player should be penalized? I will say that at least one of Draymonds in the past was absolutely intentional. To me this one clearly wasn't as neither his foot nor knee extended it was only his leg that was airborne upon contract.

2. The foul was on the Rockets player. If you were to give another player the benefit of the doubt there wouldn't have been a foul even called on him.

3. It really ain't that unconventional. It's fairly common for a player to spread their limbs on contact. We've seen many do this with their arms as well as their legs. Again if it isn't intentional what is there to fix? It's not illegal if it isn't intentional.
A blow to the infra patellar tendon that stretches the tendon and sends a signal to the spinal column that causes your quads to contract and your leg to kick is a reflex. Throwing your arm up to block a blow to your head is a reflex. Contorting your body when you are falling to make sure that something other then your head hits the ground first is a reflex. Kicking your foot over 6 feet into the air when you are falling, which would drive your head and torso into the ground faster with more force, is a learned behavior and by definition, can be unlearned.
 

HomeRunBaker

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A blow to the infra patellar tendon that u are falling, which would drive your head and torso into the ground faster with more force, is a learned behavior and by definition, can be unlearned.
Why would any involuntary action need to be unlearned if it isn't intentional though? Is there an NBA rule against this learned behavior that I'm not aware of?

I can't fathom anyone watching that replay and feeling as though Draymond intentionally kicked Harden in the head. Upon review, the officials agreed that it wasn't excessive or they change it to a F-2. Upon further review, the league agreed with the officials that it wasn't excessive or intentional otherwise they change it to a F-2 with a suspension.
 

Kliq

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Here is an impossible question: Who are the Top 5 players in the NBA right this second?
 

luckiestman

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Here is an impossible question: Who are the Top 5 players in the NBA right this second?
I'll give you 10:

Lebron
Kawhi
Durant
Davis
CP3

......

Butler
Westbrook
Curry
Harden
Giannis

Hon mention: I love Klay and Lillard
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Edit: Whoops, hit post way too soon.

I don't think this is really even particularly close. Wiggins is a far superior player. LaVine is a truly terrible defender, and lacks any sort of awareness on that end.

That people are even posing this question makes it obvious to me that the smart decision, for Minnesota, would be to make LaVine the youth they ship out. Dieng's an obvious choice, but he just doesn't net you enough of a return. LaVine on the other hand has played himself to a place where there are likely teams who overvalue him relative to what he actually is/will be.

Let's say you could get Ibaka and a an upside guy like Hezonja for a LaVine centered package. Or were able to take back a bad contract from Portland and get McCollum for a package built around LaVine and Dieng. Or could swap him for Faried and one of Denver's dozen young 2s (Barton/Murray/Harris or even Wilson Chandler)? Isn't that something you need to seriously consider if you're Minnesota?
Given LaVine's age and upside, I wouldn't deal him right now. I know you think you are selling high but I think you are selling too soon. The kid can create his shot from anywhere on the floor and its clear he is just starting to realize his potential. I agree that his defense is lacking but he is too young to say that he won't incorporate it into his game. HRB's valid points about Thibs aside, the guy is a defensive expert and if he can get LaVine to buy into playing both ends of the floor, he has the upside of a poor man's Klay Thompson. And most teams would kill to have that, let alone the real thing.

Lastly, any trade that sends LaVine and Dieng for McCollum is a bad one for the Wolves. Dieng is a useful big, albeit unpolished. McCollum is basically a shorter version of LaVine on defense with a better outside shot, an inferior ability to take it inside and CJ is three years older. That trade makes zero sense for the Wolves if you think that LaVine has upside on offense, at least.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I'll give you 10:

Lebron -
Kawhi -
Durant
Davis
CP3

......

Butler
Westbrook
Curry
Harden
Giannis

Hon mention: I love Klay and Lillard
Fair enough. I am going to add the MB'sPC lightning rod Draymond Green to this list. If I get to draft a team from the NBA and lets say I start with Westbrook or Harden or even Durant, my number two pick to pair with them is Green. The guy is a plus ball handler, a plus-plus passer and is, right now, the best defensive player in the league. When you add his motor and competitiveness into the calculation and its a no-brainer. Even Green haters (and to be frank, if you hate him it colors your view of that Harden play - Green literally kicks his right leg forward on every contested play to draw a foul) have to admit that they would consider taking him on their team if they had the chance. Or maybe they don't, in which case I predict my squad would school your squad's collective asses.

My honorable mentions include: Kristaps, Boogie, IT4 and DeRozan
 

Smokey Joe

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Why would any involuntary action need to be unlearned if it isn't intentional though? Is there an NBA rule against this learned behavior that I'm not aware of?
.
A learned reaction is intentional. It needs to be unlearned when it is a danger to others. If your learned reaction is to speed up when the light turns yellow, a few minor accidents and some tickets will hopefully break you of that habit before a dead pedestrian happens. Good luck with telling the judge "I didn't mean to."
I speculate that this is a behavior designed to "sell" incidental contact as a foul and it has become automatic. I doubt that he was trying to kick anybody in the head. I do wonder if he does this unintentionally during practices.
In any case, slapping him with flagrant fouls is the way that the NBA has chosen to correct dangerous behavior. If he played in the NHL where you wear a foot of sharpened steel on your shoes and people carry sticks, he would have already unlearned it.
 

Kliq

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I'll give you 10:

Lebron
Kawhi
Durant
Davis
CP3

......

Butler
Westbrook
Curry
Harden
Giannis

Hon mention: I love Klay and Lillard
Here is the thing though; how can you really justify putting CP3 over Harden or Westbrook right now?
 

the moops

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Because CP3 may be having a better year than anyone. Including Harden, Wetbrook, Durant, Leaonard, and Lebron.

Harden and Westbrook have the extremely sexy offensive numbers, but obviously there is more to being the best player.
 

Kliq

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I'm not really disagreeing with anybody--I just think it is an impossible selection right now. If you swapped Westbrook and Paul what would happen? It is hard to think Paul would carry OKC the way Westbrook has; but would Westbrook improve LAC? Probably not. I think Harden might actually be the MVP favorite right now, but his defense hurts him in an argument against the other two.

What is also strange about this season is how little Curry is being talked about. Outside of breaking the 3 point record he hasn't really dominated the news cycle, which is strange considering how big he was last season and ended up being the unanimous MVP. His numbers are "down" a smidge from last season; but it is also kind of strange that Durant seems to be getting more early MVP buzz.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I'm not really disagreeing with anybody--I just think it is an impossible selection right now. If you swapped Westbrook and Paul what would happen? It is hard to think Paul would carry OKC the way Westbrook has; but would Westbrook improve LAC? Probably not. I think Harden might actually be the MVP favorite right now, but his defense hurts him in an argument against the other two.

What is also strange about this season is how little Curry is being talked about. Outside of breaking the 3 point record he hasn't really dominated the news cycle, which is strange considering how big he was last season and ended up being the unanimous MVP. His numbers are "down" a smidge from last season; but it is also kind of strange that Durant seems to be getting more early MVP buzz.
None of the Warriors will be in the conversation at the end because of the super-team thing. I think they all knew this when they became the Hamptons Five. I do suspect the league would welcome an MVP coming from elsewhere too because its good for the brand.

As I noted earlier, its too bad most casual basketball fans aren't as psyched up about the NBA right now. Virtually every team has, at least, one exciting young player and the coverage of the sport is the best I can remember (The Ringer, Yahoo, Lowe and Simmons are all doing great work). Furthermore, when you consider that the sport is probably one of the best from a social media/internet perspective with amazing athletic plays, no helmets, colorful personalities and even villains, its really the best professional sport going imho.
 

southshoresoxfan

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None of the Warriors will be in the conversation at the end because of the super-team thing. I think they all knew this when they became the Hamptons Five. I do suspect the league would welcome an MVP coming from elsewhere too because its good for the brand.

As I noted earlier, its too bad most casual basketball fans aren't as psyched up about the NBA right now. Virtually every team has, at least, one exciting young player and the coverage of the sport is the best I can remember (The Ringer, Yahoo, Lowe and Simmons are all doing great work). Furthermore, when you consider that the sport is probably one of the best from a social media/internet perspective with amazing athletic plays, no helmets, colorful personalities and even villains, its really the best professional sport going imho.
Agree w all this..the NBA is in a great place and honesty better setup long term than the NFL is.
 

CreedBratton

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Agree w all this..the NBA is in a great place and honesty better setup long term than the NFL is.
Double agree! Especially how every team seems to have an awesome young player or team. It's making it very exciting seeing towns, the Greek freak, Kelmba walker, etc.


Also, up above you gotta include Paul George. He's easily a top 10 player in my mind.
 

luckiestman

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Double agree! Especially how every team seems to have an awesome young player or team. It's making it very exciting seeing towns, the Greek freak, Kelmba walker, etc.


Also, up above you gotta include Paul George. He's easily a top 10 player in my mind.

I really like Paul George but I don't see who I take out to put him in. I'd like to see some other lists, I don't get to watch many non Celtics games so curious what other people are seeing.
 

CreedBratton

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I really like Paul George but I don't see who I take out to put him in. I'd like to see some other lists, I don't get to watch many non Celtics games so curious what other people are seeing.
I'd take him over Butler no question. I like Jimmy but give me PG13 all day every day
 

Kliq

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George is awesome; a better shooter than Butler--a great defender and maybe one of the ten or so best athletes in the NBA. He also has balls; I'll always remember him going right at prime LeBron and holding his own.
 

tbrep

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None of the Warriors will be in the conversation at the end because of the super-team thing. I think they all knew this when they became the Hamptons Five. I do suspect the league would welcome an MVP coming from elsewhere too because its good for the brand.

As I noted earlier, its too bad most casual basketball fans aren't as psyched up about the NBA right now. Virtually every team has, at least, one exciting young player and the coverage of the sport is the best I can remember (The Ringer, Yahoo, Lowe and Simmons are all doing great work). Furthermore, when you consider that the sport is probably one of the best from a social media/internet perspective with amazing athletic plays, no helmets, colorful personalities and even villains, its really the best professional sport going imho.
The NBA is absolutely awesome right now. But the regular season is meaningless for a lot of teams and there are only 4 teams that can win a ring. In the NFL, almost every regular season game matters and the nature of the playoffs mean even wildcard teams have a great shot once they're in the dance.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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The NBA is absolutely awesome right now. But the regular season is meaningless for a lot of teams and there are only 4 teams that can win a ring. In the NFL, almost every regular season game matters and the nature of the playoffs mean even wildcard teams have a great shot once they're in the dance.
There is no question that the NFL regular season games matter more than any other professional sport. Furthermore, on any given night in the NBA during the months of December to early February, there is a good chance that a star is taking it easy or more than a few of the regular rotation players are nursing hangovers etc. That said, there are still exciting players and guys who go hard every night regardless.

The NFL is exciting too but as we have discussed endlessly in BBTL, its run by horrible people, it is slowly killing those who play the sport, its populated with many athletes who, by their very nature, are violent and often times unlikeable off the field and the product is so laden with marketing that you feel like you are watching more advertisements than actual play.

I just feel less dirty watching an NBA game but your results may vary.

edit: Also, I would take George over Butler. He is a fantastic basketball player.
 

JCizzle

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He's going to seriously hurt someone. His act needs to stop, that is not a natural act no matter how much he bitches and moans about it. It's possible to respect his game but absolutely hate this aspect of what he does. Cut the shit dude. I hope he gets a few days off to think about it, but I'm sure that will only cause him to whine some more.
 

southshoresoxfan

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Not necessary to unlearn an involuntary action caused by contact that isn't illegal. It's fun reading your posts on this though.
You're a troll bot right?

At the very least youre one of the announcers who didnt even mention yet ANOTHER intentional kick by Draymond.

This is getting absurd. Silver needs to suspend this clown.
 

HomeRunBaker

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You're a troll bot right?

At the very least youre one of the announcers who didnt even mention yet ANOTHER intentional kick by Draymond.

This is getting absurd. Silver needs to suspend this clown.
It really is ridiculous claiming that it is intentional act. Suspend for what? For how a player involuntarily reacts to contact? As much as you scream for it there won't be a Flagrant-2 on either Harden or last night nor will there be a suspension from Silver. I can't even believe it's a serious claim.
 

southshoresoxfan

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It really is ridiculous claiming that it is intentional act. Suspend for what? For how a player involuntarily reacts to contact? As much as you scream for it there won't be a Flagrant-2 on either Harden or last night nor will there be a suspension from Silver. I can't even believe it's a serious claim.
Youre joking right? You think both of these were involuntary? Please im begging you all high and mighty czar of the SoSH NBA world show us some footage of other players reacting by kicking their legs at peoples heads and groin areas after being contacted.

When you cant find footage you can come apologize to the rest of us here that have brains. Thanks in advance.
 

Montana Fan

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I'm an HRB guy but what Draymond is doing is a learned behavior similar to clearing things out with your elbows when you grab a rebound underneath the rim. Both of these things can become second nature and I'd argue that's what this is. He should be suspended, he's injuring other players with his antics.
 

southshoresoxfan

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I'm an HRB guy but what Draymond is doing is a learned behavior similar to clearing things out with your elbows when you grab a rebound underneath the rim. Both of these things can become second nature and I'd argue that's what this is. He should be suspended, he's injuring other players with his antics.
Swinging an elbow after a rebound is cheap and dirty.but can at least be disguised as natural.

Nothing about Draymonds kicks resembles anything natural on a basketball court. Maybe he should take up MMA.
 

Ed Hillel

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Come on, that was intentional - he had barely any momentum when the whistle blew and he was staring right at his target. The foul was away from the ball, btw. Curry drew it.

Why Green gets the benefit of the doubt from anyone at this point is beyond me. He and Wade are cut from the same cloth.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Youre joking right? You think both of these were involuntary? Please im begging you all high and mighty czar of the SoSH NBA world show us some footage of other players reacting by kicking their legs at peoples heads and groin areas after being contacted.

When you cant find footage you can come apologize to the rest of us here that have brains. Thanks in advance.
Sam Ray Not with the work!! Green attempting to kick his teammate on the sideline is appalling! As is Bill Russell's vicious antics.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Marquese Chriss sure was pissed and certain it was intentional. I mean, the proof is in how went directly after Green there. It was nearly a brawl. Good thing the refs were there to restrain him.
 

southshoresoxfan

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Sam Ray Not with the work!! Green attempting to kick his teammate on the sideline is appalling! As is Bill Russell's vicious antics.
So any of those clips describe what I was talking about? A player who intentionally kicked the head or groin after being contacted?

Try and keep up bub I know thinking and reading can be hard.
 

southshoresoxfan

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Marquese Chriss sure was pissed and certain it was intentional. I mean, the proof is in how went directly after Green there. It was nearly a brawl. Good thing the refs were there to restrain him.
Not sure how anyone can watch that video and not think Green did that intentionally. A rookies reaction while going to get his balls iced down dont really indicated intention to me.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Not sure how anyone can watch that video and not think Green did that intentionally. A rookies reaction while going to get his balls iced down dont really indicated intention to me.
I am with Montana here. Draymond Green does that reflexively as a learned behavior. He can clearly hurt someone doing this and I wish it wasn't part of his game. However the larger point is that its not just him doing this. Most savvy NBA veterans flail their limbs upon any sort of contact to draw contact and get a foul on their opponent - see SRN's post above. If the league wants to stop this, they simply have to start calling this an offensive foul.
 

the moops

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Marquese Chriss sure was pissed and certain it was intentional. I mean, the proof is in how went directly after Green there. It was nearly a brawl. Good thing the refs were there to restrain him.
Huh?
He didn't go directly after Green at all. He doesn't even look at him as he heads to the bench. And it appears it was his hand/thumb that got kicked and not his groin.
 

JCizzle

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I am with Montana here. Draymond Green does that reflexively as a learned behavior. He can clearly hurt someone doing this and I wish it wasn't part of his game. However the larger point is that its not just him doing this. Most savvy NBA veterans flail their limbs upon any sort of contact to draw contact and get a foul on their opponent - see SRN's post above. If the league wants to stop this, they simply have to start calling this an offensive foul.
I've seen it called from time to time on 3s, but yeah it needs to be a focus - especially for players like Wade, Draymond, etc. I believe Bruce Bowen used to do this a lot too back in the day.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Huh?
He didn't go directly after Green at all. He doesn't even look at him as he heads to the bench. And it appears it was his hand/thumb that got kicked and not his groin.
That was a failed attempt at sarcasm.


And yeah it was his hand but the groin is better for the narrative because it makes evil Draymond even more sinister.
 

AMS25

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Watching the Brow vs. Westbrook.

It's the third quarter, and Westbrook already has his triple double. The Brow has been unstoppable. Too bad the rest of his team is so bad.
 

Over Guapo Grande

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I am just glad the Draymond never went to a Catholic school. If his legs shot out like that involuntarily every time that he got whacked across the wrists, the nuns would have needed to start using yardsticks rather than rulers.