2017 Gronk: Mojo Gronk
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I may be overreacting, but to echo some others here - I kind of want to see him retire. He's had way too many serious injuries and I think we're starting to see how those have added up.
He'd be great on TV and would easily land a job with ESPN or NFLN. I'm afraid that if he keeps taking the field we're eventually going to see him take a hit to his back that's going to leave him motionless and being taken off the field on a stretcher.
He's already a likely HOFer, he has a ring, money, looks, fame - there's nothing else for him to prove. Walk away now, big guy, and enjoy the cushy rest of your life that you deserve.
Rings and titles aren't as important as the rest of his life.
He'd be great on TV and would easily land a job with ESPN or NFLN. I'm afraid that if he keeps taking the field we're eventually going to see him take a hit to his back that's going to leave him motionless and being taken off the field on a stretcher.
He's already a likely HOFer, he has a ring, money, looks, fame - there's nothing else for him to prove. Walk away now, big guy, and enjoy the cushy rest of your life that you deserve.
Rings and titles aren't as important as the rest of his life.
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Can't say this is in any way surprising. If the Super Bowl was moved to April, he'd be good to go. Not February.
You and everyone. Just like my daughter wants a pony. I think the question for the Pats going forward is what 10 games a year of Gronk is worth. You can't realistically expect more than that. Hope? Sure. But not expect, and be prepared that it could be fewer and could be in December. The question is what do the Pats gain by saying no mas.
Fortunately, the cap situation next year makes it an easy decision for the Pats. He's about as expensive to cut as to keep. After that, not so easy. $23 million is a lot of cap money.
I think it's going to be an RB party on offense now. BB was talking about his latest wrinkle being 2 RB sets.
I don't believe the 2018/19 seasons were ever expected to be "real" in Gronk's contract. Assuming he doesn't retire, he would either be restructured ahead of that, or cut/traded. If anything, this latest injury simply kicks the ball back to March of 2018. At this point, there is no urgency on the Pats part to do anything other than let him play out 2017.
That's exactly why I think he might get traded - Bill can get good value for him now with him having a year of reasonable money left AND he's got two more years left after that. What are the odds he just gets hurt again next year and retires? Then you get nothing. You might be able to fleece a GM who thinks part-time Gronk can save his job.
There's nothing of value worth it to trade Gronk. Let him play out 2017 and see where he stands. He holds no leverage so if he wants to earn another big contract he has to stay healthy next year.
Obviously he won't get traded if a 4th round is all they can get. I'm assuming the Patriots can do a lot better than that. The other part of it is that I don't think he agrees to restructure; so he's liable to get cut anyway after next season.
he is your guys Terrell Davis Gronk needs 1 or 2 more healhy years to get in the HOF its the only argument i have with broncos fans Terrell only played 7 seasons and only 4 was healthy Terrell Davis is not a hall of famer right now gronk has 6 years and only 2 or 3 full healthy years
Can you think of any professional that has done a piss poor job of managing his own public perception on his own and/or been taken advantage of by those who were paid to handle his business for him but didn't really care about him?
I'll wait while you think this through.
Weird how that works, huh?
Well, he may share some of that cost too, eh?
Guys, there are doctors and scienticians in this forum--in this very thread. Some of them have even been to medical school, though maybe not any that such an erudite crowd such as this has actually heard of.
The point I want to make here is that if you want to discuss his biological injury proneness without reference to things like what his bone density measures are or what the equivalent is for tendons or ligaments or whatever...
Go somewhere else to do it. Seriously.
It's fine if you don't know what you're talking about, that is your right, and this is America goddammit. You are under no obligation to not blather about shit you don't understand. But some of us are entrusted with trying to keep that kind of nonsense from destroying what might otherwise turn into useful, informative discussion, and, right now, I'm seeing shit like this as in the way.
Two questions:
1) Do you think avoiding, slipping, or reducing hits would assist with injury prevention?
2) Do you think the ability to avoid, slip, or otherwise reduce the newtons of force transmitted by contact in the field of sport is a skill?
What do you suppose, if anything, Deion Branch might have to say on this matter?
It's not fun, but it's beautiful.
Many, if not most, NFL players, especially of his caliber, have too much pride to make that video.
The Gronk Persona is fun, but it means different things to different people.
Here? Gronk is teaching. And I'm almost in tears watching him work.
No, it's not beautiful. It is a man in his 20s in a walker struggling to take steps because he was hurt entertaining us. It isn't the first time he has had to do this, which seems to make the risk that he will be in a walker Or in significant pain after his career ends, much higher. Again, for our entertainment.
Don't glamorize this by saying Gronk is teaching. He wasn't hit by a car, he isn't coming back from chemo, this isn't inspiring people who are in similar positions. This is a guy in his 20s who has had multiple back surgeries, who played in a game a few weeks after puncturing a lung, recovering from an injury that he sustained while entertaining.
I think you might have misunderstood what I think he was teaching us.
If so, that's on me. And this is important, so I want to be as clear as possible.
Edit: I need to go to sleep, so I just want to make sure this is out there for anyone reading next:
What I think i beautiful is Gronk swallowing his pride and letting himself be taped in that condition and having it be broadcast. Guys like that rarely makes themselves so vulnerable, even to make an important point.
Maybe I'm wrong in my interpretation, but even absent the interpretation, maybe we can agree that this is a rare thing.
If so, that's on me. And this is important, so I want to be as clear as possible.
Edit: I need to go to sleep, so I just want to make sure this is out there for anyone reading next:
What I think i beautiful is Gronk swallowing his pride and letting himself be taped in that condition and having it be broadcast. Guys like that rarely makes themselves so vulnerable, even to make an important point.
Maybe I'm wrong in my interpretation, but even absent the interpretation, maybe we can agree that this is a rare thing.
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I have no idea what Gronk's health will be when he comes back from this. I can't speak to whether or not the patriots have to trade him or that he won't be worth the contract once healthy or if he will "never be the same again" or that the team will never again be able to run their offense the same way. I'm going to wait and find out.
I've been asking for that for a couple of weeks. Plus, it's clear that opponents are ignoring Blount when he goes out on passing routes. Perhaps that could be exploited.
I would agree it is a rare thing and I certainly think I see he point you were trying to make there.
It's just damned hard for me to see beauty in a guy who has done so much for a lot of people, and who brings a lot of joy to so many off the field and on in a walker at that age.
I remember so many pundits talking about how tough Gronkowski was for coming back so quickly after the punctured lung, and other prior injuries......I just hope that the guy doesn't view "coming back from injuries" as being inexorably linked to the popular view of him being tough. That is a path that has put way too many NFL players in really bad places after their careers. I want the guy to be making goofy pyramids with his brothers in Vegas with his brothers ten years from now.
Agreed (with you and Rev).
The mouthbreathing contingent of Patriots fans (well, one of them, right? hey-o!) that calls into sports talk shows to speculate about, or outright criticize, Gronk's 'toughness' can fuck right off.
I was more referring to the overhyped praise for guys being tough when they come back from significant injury in silly timeframes - the 70s era Steelers and Raiders were famous for having tough players.....and most of those tough guys are either dead or in searing pain each day. But there was a caller on WFAN who criticized the Patriots for coddling Gronkowski as opposed to giving him a few weeks to see how he healed up. The host was appropriately dismissive.
Is there any real basis other than "It's his third back surgery, Mike! His THIRD!!!" for all this "he'll never be the same" talk?
During the pre-game show on 98.5 today they were talking about how tough Bennett was and how much respect he's garnered in the locker room because of the injuries he's played through this year. This is the sport we all love. You get hurt, and your worth as a player is as much a function of your ability to play through pain as anything else.
Anyway, I love Gronk, as much as any non-Brady player during the BB era. I thought the video was hard to watch but also great. Love the guy and I'm not sure whether I hope he comes back healthy or whether he retires.
Anyway, I love Gronk, as much as any non-Brady player during the BB era. I thought the video was hard to watch but also great. Love the guy and I'm not sure whether I hope he comes back healthy or whether he retires.
No, that is not correct, and that mindset has led to some terrible consequences for 100s of thousands of people who played football at all levels over the years, and horrifying consequences fo thousands of players who played at the highest levels.
Three back surgeries and his overall injury history does give reasonable credibility to the statement, no?
I completely agree with you. I was pointing out that the week that Gronk got put on IR the conversation on the Pats flagship radio station was abut how tough their other TE was because he plays through injuries.
I saw "Concussion" on cable last night, and this post really resonates.
Yeah, I think we're in firm agreement here. I mean, what we see is gruesome, horrific, tragic.
The beauty is the courage that most athletes don't have to show it. I mean, transparency is linked to honesty, just one is a virtue of persons and the other of institutions. We know the league isn't transparent. Gronk, though, is being honest.
I hear you. I just sometimes forget you weren't raised Catholic.
I hate wrestling with the how I feel about the First Amendment. Damn you for making me thing about it.
I was at least 17% happier before I read this. Not your fault, of course, but holy hell does this new information make my blood run cold.
Do you remember the part of this thread where I mentioned all the fucking doctors in this thread or how clearly do you need this spelled out for you?
And yes, I am now asking you and, dammit, I want a response: How clearly do you need this spelled out for you?
I'm a little confused. Your post (which I saw at the time and looked up just now) said that posters who aren't doctors shouldn't be speculating wildly on his health in this thread. I didn't speculate – I simply asked who the medical people were who were saying his career might be over. The thread is 45 pages on mobile and the only post I see by a doctor (that I know of anyway) is DRS saying he was def. done for the year so we could stop trying to imagine him pushing his walker onto the field in Super Bowl pre-game.
Are there actual doctors—on this thread or in the media—speculating that Gronk could be done?
The point, if I can step in for Rev, I think, is that this forum gives you a good opportunity to ask whether the 3 back surgeries will limit Gronk going forward, or the effect of repeated surgeries in general or on the back in particular. I think there are at least 3 docs you could "page" to this thread.
Do you honestly believe the form in which you expressed your question did not appear in any way "loaded" or otherwise containing rhetorical content beyond the simply interrogative of what his actual injury is and what the empirical ramifications for his career might be?
I'm asking seriously, and giving you the benefit of the doubt. Please answer with care.
Rev, I will try to answer this carefully. My post was in response to the TON of speculation in this thread about Gronk's career being in jeopardy. Some people are even suggesting he's done as if it's a foregone conclusion. To my knowledge these posts are not medical opinions made by doctors but emotional ones made by fans, who (understandably) fear that this might be it for one of the truly great athletes of his generation.
Which is fine but not to my mind consistent with people keeping their armchair medical diagnoses to themselves, as you urged.
So I asked, in a bit of a flip way, what the basis for all of this was beyond emotional speculation. I certainly didn't mean to denigrate medical opinions of doctors posting here by suggesting they were no more valid than guys calling into radio shows.
Let me know if that makes sense.
Edit: grammar
Which is fine but not to my mind consistent with people keeping their armchair medical diagnoses to themselves, as you urged.
So I asked, in a bit of a flip way, what the basis for all of this was beyond emotional speculation. I certainly didn't mean to denigrate medical opinions of doctors posting here by suggesting they were no more valid than guys calling into radio shows.
Let me know if that makes sense.
Edit: grammar
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dcmissile can speak for himself, but when I see people say things like "staying healthy is a skill", I imagine in my head something similar to a soldier having common sense and his wits about him in a battle, protecting himself from being seen and not trying to be a hero. In the NFL, that might be an ability to see a hit coming out of the corner of your eye and a decision to go down some of the time, rather than take it and fight for that extra yard 100% of the time. It might be telling coaches* when you're "semi-injured" so that your playtime goes down for a game or two in order to minimize your longer-term risks (to your season, in the coaches' eyes, but also to your health), rather than waiting until you're incapacitated before asking out from anything. It might be some technique in blocking, where the force hits your legs more and your forearms less. I dunno, but I can definitely see some difference in behavior that derives from your approach, your technique or your instinct being termed a "skill". Whether that behavior would be desirable in Gronk, I have no idea.
* It is true that marginal roster players have a strong disincentive to do this, due to their risk of being perceived as fungible and being replaced by someone less mincing about their own health. I would say that that is not true for the stars in the league, who can expect a long enough career that these considerations matter. Handling that conversation, of course, is itself a skill.
It might be some of the things Rev mentioned - bone density, tendon thickness, flexibility, reflexes, leverages, etc.
Here's a hypothetical - 10 men the same size and age are lined up and hit with the same force at the same angle in the same spot. Do they all walk away the same?
Here's a hypothetical - 10 men the same size and age are lined up and hit with the same force at the same angle in the same spot. Do they all walk away the same?
Another hypothetical, and one whose answer would help answer a thought I've had about Gronk for some time: if you lined up 10 men of different heights, weights, and body types and hit them with the same force at the same angle in the same spot, do they all suffer the same injury/severity?
My thought about Gronk was that perhaps his body size and type (tall, and heavy, but also fast) mean that his body is more susceptible to injuries than someone who is only one or two of those things? And if so, will Martellus also have similar issues as he seems to share all three?
First of all, I think I noted the avoiding contact skill upthread somewhere. (I think it was in relation to Welker and Edelman).
1) Probably.
2) Its a skill but in many circumstances with Gronkowski, a choice. As someone asked upthread --- what would his success be if he chose to avoid contact (when he could) more often. Would he be a Hall of Famer, or just really really good?
So that part of it might be skill related with respect to some injuries. Other aspects might just be not-skills, like bone density, etc.
I think part of the confusion may be the need to go all in on skill vs attribute. Let's talk about me, for example because that's always an awesome subject.
I broke my nose about a dozen times boxing. Part of that was skill: early on my defense sucked and I'd get hit flush. Part of that was an attribute: some fighters have flat noses that never really break. I have the other kind.
I also had 3 hand surgeries. That was an attribute. On the third surgery, the dr. told me that my forearm bone (ulna or the other guy) was a fraction of a millimeter longer than normal so that when I turned over my punches and made contact it would fray the tendon or ligament. After he shaved the bone, I had far fewer issues.
I broke my nose about a dozen times boxing. Part of that was skill: early on my defense sucked and I'd get hit flush. Part of that was an attribute: some fighters have flat noses that never really break. I have the other kind.
I also had 3 hand surgeries. That was an attribute. On the third surgery, the dr. told me that my forearm bone (ulna or the other guy) was a fraction of a millimeter longer than normal so that when I turned over my punches and made contact it would fray the tendon or ligament. After he shaved the bone, I had far fewer issues.