2017 Gronk: Mojo Gronk
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Did you feel the same way about the Manning family enterprise, and specifically the old man getting in the sons' biz, PR-wise and otherwise?
And anyway, who cares?
Curran's not one of the local assholes. But "the patriots are mulling their options" is reporting of the lowest hanging fruit. The Patriots are ALWAYS mulling ALL their options at every position. The decision to keep Brissett around when he was hurt and maybe activate him suggests the Patriots are "mulling their options" at QB in the future.
An agent's job may be limited to negotiating contracts. And it may be better that way. Not everyone can be uber Agent/Lawyer/Spokesmodel Don Yee.
Curran IMO is first rate and simply doing his job.
This piece of that job, which can wait until the season over, does not coincide with team needs in these circumstances. There are 52 other guys on the roster, 5+ games left.
What do you is snuff this out. I'm sure BB will be happy to apply the finishing touches at the next press conference.
This piece of that job, which can wait until the season over, does not coincide with team needs in these circumstances. There are 52 other guys on the roster, 5+ games left.
What do you is snuff this out. I'm sure BB will be happy to apply the finishing touches at the next press conference.
I was thinking about posting on this, but now that you have I will chip in. Apparently Gonzalez was never a big "heavy lifting" guy but more in that Marinovich school of lean, highly flexible (but powerful) muscles. He also was an amazingly clean eater from all accounts. I have no doubt that he did some PEDs, but he was also focused on his physical health from his USC days on, according to all accounts.
The phrase "mulling their options" is so vague as to be essentially meaningless. Does it mean when/if to put Gronk on IR? Whom to sign or promote to replace them?
Or, as it's implied here, was Curran referring to what the Pats do in 2017 and beyond? Assuming Gronk does not decide to retire (which is entirely possible), there's a 99% chance that Gronk is on the Opening Day roster come 2017. The cap savings from a cut or trade is minimal, and even half or 3/4 of a season of 80% Gronk is still by far the best option when it comes to the team's short and long term needs. Gronk's situation is nowhere near analogous to those of Chandler Jones or Jamie Collins.
It's quite possible that the Pats were thinking of restructuring Gronk's contract to give him more dough in 2017 and beyond, and I can see that being put on hold for the time being. As Gronk is under contract for 3 more years, and as his 2017 cap hit is very reasonable, there is nothing forcing the Pats to restructure at this time. That will be an interesting situation to watch, but there will likely be nothing to see here until the off season.
Or, as it's implied here, was Curran referring to what the Pats do in 2017 and beyond? Assuming Gronk does not decide to retire (which is entirely possible), there's a 99% chance that Gronk is on the Opening Day roster come 2017. The cap savings from a cut or trade is minimal, and even half or 3/4 of a season of 80% Gronk is still by far the best option when it comes to the team's short and long term needs. Gronk's situation is nowhere near analogous to those of Chandler Jones or Jamie Collins.
It's quite possible that the Pats were thinking of restructuring Gronk's contract to give him more dough in 2017 and beyond, and I can see that being put on hold for the time being. As Gronk is under contract for 3 more years, and as his 2017 cap hit is very reasonable, there is nothing forcing the Pats to restructure at this time. That will be an interesting situation to watch, but there will likely be nothing to see here until the off season.
You know, I was about to say something about how Tight End is such a violent position and it's rare to have a lengthy career there, but then I thought back to the Hall of Fame (or "elite") guys at the position, and a number of them managed to have pretty long careers.
Ditka played for 12 seasons, Ozzie Newsome and Russ Francis played for 13, Shannon Sharpe played for 14, Gates and Witten are at 14 and counting, Gonzalez played for 17 (!), etc.
Pretty remarkable. And while a few of these guys were more receivers than blocking tight ends, you certainly can't say that for all of them.
Edited to add Russ Francis because this is a Pats board!
Yeah, very much. There is surprising longevity at TE and the OL in general for a good chunk of the elite guys. I hope Gronkowski comes back to football, he is fun to watch play and he is fun to have in the league. But I also hope he doesn't have a life where he is taking painkillers every day. He deserves to have a fun life after football.
He does. And he's had a LOT of injuries and surgeries. He's just injury prone, for whatever reason. And it probably isn't because he's always targeted because he is a humongous dude. Targeting Gronk is costly for the targert-er.
Most of his being injury prone has just been bad luck. It's always amazing to me how many people ignore the impact of luck on these things (not you, specifically; my comment is targeted mostly to lazy mediots). The broken arm was a fluke; the reinjury, where he landed just the wrong way, was an even bigger fluke. The ACL injury was on a hit that would likely cause similar injury to most other players. One could argue that his style of play leads to such injuries, and I will argue that Gronk has been asked to do more as TE than many of the players listed above.
The back problems, unfortunately, seem to be a recurring issue. That could be one of those things where his back is just not made to stand up to the repeated pounding that NFL players take. And Gronk is just not a guy that's going to sit back on a play to avoid injury.
How many "flukes" does it take for someone to wonder if he's just a guy who is injury prone? Eli Manning is a waif of a human and he's never missed a game. QB, of course, but it feels like Gronk is like Jimmy Graham, a truly incredible talent who is always dealing with injuries. And this isn't a knock on Gronk, just the reality. Some people get injured easier than others, it's a physiologically thing. For example, why did Tony Gonzalez never have a fluke injury?
Staying healthy is a skill.
This is spot on. He's prone to back injuries, the arm and knee issues were fluky. Unfortunately the back is probably going to get worse over time, not better.
If a player's non-health is related to something he could do about it, it could be a skill. (maybe the ubiquitous "taking care of your body.") Otherwise, this is just an empty platitude. Avoiding empty platitudes is also a skill.
Gronkowski had a bad back coming out of college ("bad back" is pretty broad. whether its related to his current woes is just speculation). I would say that playing at a Hall of Fame level for several seasons despite that is what takes skill.
Don't be glib, Matt.
I mean, what the heck? Obviously playing the way Gronk has for as long as he has is a tremendous skill. At his peak, he's the best TE in the history of the sport. That isn't an empty platitude.
So he has a lot of skills. Staying healthy isn't one of them.
Neither had Tom Brady for longer than Eli's total career - and then he missed 15 in a row. It's luck, and the fact that Quarterback is the safest position on the field.
I feel like some of Gronk's injuries are due to the 'shaq-effect'. He's so damn big and strong that nobody seems to want to call anything against defenders covering him - so he takes a lot more borderline hits than your average 'skill position player'.
The back stuff is definitely an issue, but the rest is fluke/etc.
FWIW, BB seems to view health as a skill. Here's his response to a question about Bennett a week ago: "he's shown good toughness. He's been a very dependable player for us in terms of being out there all the way through the spring, OTA's, training camp, regular season. It's one of those positions - offensive line, tight end, linebacker, running back - those guys get hit a lot. They are in a lot of contact plays. Part of those positions, I mean it's true of all positions, too. I'm not trying to single them out, but there's contact pretty much on every play for them. Part of those positions is durability."
Using QB is a bad example because they can often control the amount of times they get hit. Brady and the Mannings get the ball out of their hands so I don't think it's much of a surprise that they don't get hurt often.
I think we're (or maybe just me) parsing words. I dont think BB cares if its a skill or if its luck. He certainly cares about a player's ability to play through the slings and arrows. Either you can play or you can't. I don't think there's any particular skill involved in not getting your arm broken or your knee shredded. There might be in avoiding pulled muscles.
OTOH -- Guys like Edelman and Welker, as hard as they get/got hit, were dedicated toward not getting hit. Gronkowski has never played that way. "Avoiding some amount of crushing hits" could be a skill that Gronkowski needs to learn. But query whether he'd still be Gronkowski?
I dont think the arm and knee injuries say much of anything about Gronkowski's injury future. The back is different, though.
Don't apologize! I saw Tony play at least one game at Cal. Maybe it was against USC. Sat near the SC band and they play their fight song with it's same 10 notes over and over. Drive you crazy. Tony caught a TD pass. Saw Tony play B-Ball too. Great athlete.
One difference between Gonzo and Gronk is that the latter seemed to get targeted with big hits a cheap shots more, while Tony was somehow below the radar.
Welker was a freak, but Edelman's injury track record isn't any better than Gronk's. He's had at least three concussions, four or five foot injuries (including two significant ones), four or five hand / arm injuries, and variously been listed with back, thigh, and ankle injuries. He's been listed with a foot injury since Week 5 this year, though he hasn't missed a game.
I do suspect there's a scheme / usage issue with the Pats offense that leads to more injuries. They throw a lot, throw over the middle a lot, and throw over the middle against zone defenses a lot, which isn't a formula to avoid hits for slot guys or tight ends. It's probably more weird when a guy like Welker avoids injury year after year than it is when guys like Gronk, Edelman, and Deion Branch have trouble staying healthy.
(That's not to say there isn't some injury proneness with Gronk's back, nor that he's been the victim of bad luck [who breaks his arm on an extra point?])
Gronk is very handsy with his man in coverage, Tony was much better at making quick cuts and seeking the seam in the coverage. I think that is one reason for the difference in the way they were/are played.
It's seldom "one thing".
He presents a large target profile and plays like a maniac. I don't imagine a thrice injured back for a guy his size helps matters. The scheme suggestion is interesting.
But people are different too. Hines Ward routinely got the piss beat out of him, but missed only 7 games over 14 seasons. Looks fine today. Welker, not so much.
People who reflexively dismiss health as a skill or attribute -- the random walk crowd -- have closed minds.
He presents a large target profile and plays like a maniac. I don't imagine a thrice injured back for a guy his size helps matters. The scheme suggestion is interesting.
But people are different too. Hines Ward routinely got the piss beat out of him, but missed only 7 games over 14 seasons. Looks fine today. Welker, not so much.
People who reflexively dismiss health as a skill or attribute -- the random walk crowd -- have closed minds.
Barnwell's piece on life without Gronk: http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/18186145/how-rob-gronkowski-injury-affects-patriots-nfl-playoff-picture-tight-end-future-2016-nfl
One thing that stands out is Brady's passing numbers without Gronk drop way off.
One thing that stands out is Brady's passing numbers without Gronk drop way off.
Hopefully if Bennett is healthy, that can help this drop-off
More evidence that a healthy Gronkowski is the best non-QB offensive player will may see in a generation.
I think this is overblown. 10 of the games Gronk missed were in 2013, which was Brady's worst group of pass-catchers since 2006 (that was the year Amendola and Vereen got hurt Week 1 and Brady was throwing to Dobson, Kenbrell Thompkins, Brandon Bolden, and Hoomanawanui). Gronk missed six games in 2012 and the O was fine - that stretch which included the buttfumble game, a 4 TD / 0 INT domination of Houston, and the SF game where they were horrible in the first half and Brady lit up a really good 49ers team in the second half.
Good counter, hope you're right. The Redzone is where he'll feel it the most.
538 came to a similar conclusion, he's just as valuable as Randy Moss was..
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/rob-gronkowski-is-the-randy-moss-of-tight-ends/
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/rob-gronkowski-is-the-randy-moss-of-tight-ends/
Not trying to be a dick here. I have no problem with "attribute."
I do with "skill," unless its some sort of conditioning or preparation-related injury.
Someone needs to forward this to Brady. Not only is he a system QB but he's also league average without Gronk. It's a faulty analysis because you need to see what everyone else does without their top option and many of those obviously aren't as good as Gronk.
The "In seasons where both were on the team" really chokes down that sample size - if you're really trying to figure out how valuable Gronk is, you'd want to include the years before he was drafted as part of the baseline for Brady - otherwise we're just basically coming to the conclusion that Gronk is way better than Kembrell Thomkins.
Thanks for the information. Four on the forearm alone, wow. He's had more than his share to say the least.
I remember a program about pro football players a number of years ago on HBO if I am not mistaken on the injuries they end up with and they focused on Jim Otto, the former center for the Raiders, just watching the poor bastard get out of bed in the morning was painful. They showed footage of one of his back surgeries, it was not for the faint hearted, the doctor was flailing away with surgical tools on his spine, it was awful.
These guys earn every dollar they get, I don't begrudge any of them for going to the highest bidder as their careers are not very long.
Yeah, I'm surprised more guys don't follow the Damien Woody route: get some rings and then get out of town for a big payday.
i am create every practice squad guy on madden ps3 i actually made this guy he is more a WR very raw played at UAB i guess saban likes him i would had try to lure Owen Daniels myself
Like many of us Boston born & bred sports fans who like/love most of all of the 4 hometown teams, I've been following my loves (Sox & Pats) and sometimes like/love(Celts) and occasional like (Bruins) for a very long time and I have my personal favorites of the truly great ones (Bird, Brady, Pedro, Pierce, Papi, Orr) and my idiosyncratic favorites over the years (Francis, Rico, Valentin, Rondo & Sugar Bear Hamilton come to mind), but despite my NJ co-workers convinced I'm in man-love with Tom.Brady & to a lesser extent with David Ortiz, I think I might love Rob Gronkowski more than any of them.
That video touched my heart and assures me the "Kid" is coming back yet again. Plus those numbers on the chart or so extreme but we've seen how great the guy is. Just a damn shame he's hurt again. Just hope this one isn't the one that ends the short but incredible run of greatness.
That video touched my heart and assures me the "Kid" is coming back yet again. Plus those numbers on the chart or so extreme but we've seen how great the guy is. Just a damn shame he's hurt again. Just hope this one isn't the one that ends the short but incredible run of greatness.
No. Kind of heartbreaking actually. I know its probably like 5 minutes after surgery, but its hard not to see it as a 10 second flash forward 15 years when 42 year old Rob Gronkowski needs a walker and 70 year old me doesn't.
I'm sure he will be back. But for how long? In just one year he's had a hamstring injury, a lung contusion, and a ruptured disk. He's on his third ruptured disk in eight years. He missed a full season in college injuring himself lifting. He plays with a massive brace on his arm from an injury that is now a few years old.
I love Gronk. He lights up this team and is dominant at his position. But whether it's the way his body is constructed, the way he plays, the way he is defended, or an all out attitude in playing (and even lifting), he gets hurt and hurt very badly multiple times a year.
Might he have another year like 2014? Yes, of course. But I think it's time to recognize that would be more of a fluke than him having another year like 2016. I hope he plays another five years -- if not for the Patriots than for someone -- but at this point does anyone really think the chances of that happening are better than the chances we'll see the big fellah in a wheelchair in ten years?
How often can he keep going back to the well? I hope he gives some serious thought to hanging it up. Because the idea that he's done with serious injuries seems unlikely.
Edit: cleaned up a few details
I love Gronk. He lights up this team and is dominant at his position. But whether it's the way his body is constructed, the way he plays, the way he is defended, or an all out attitude in playing (and even lifting), he gets hurt and hurt very badly multiple times a year.
Might he have another year like 2014? Yes, of course. But I think it's time to recognize that would be more of a fluke than him having another year like 2016. I hope he plays another five years -- if not for the Patriots than for someone -- but at this point does anyone really think the chances of that happening are better than the chances we'll see the big fellah in a wheelchair in ten years?
How often can he keep going back to the well? I hope he gives some serious thought to hanging it up. Because the idea that he's done with serious injuries seems unlikely.
Edit: cleaned up a few details
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I feel they need to change up the routes that Gronk has been running. It seems that the majority of his injuries have happened when hes going over the middle (TJ Ward, Bernard Pollard, Earl Thomas). Maybe have him more of a flat/lineup as a WR on plays? They need to protect him or Brady needs to stop leading him up the seam.
I think we are all trying to process the probable end of the Gronk as domnant Pats TE. How many back surgeries can the guy go through? There are too many TJ Wards in ths league waiting to line him up. .A broken arm or a bad hammy is one thing, but spinal surgery is another.
I think its sad,. he's a unique unstoppable and fun force of nature, and a blast to cheer for. I may be accused of over-reacting, but I think he's better served weighing the quality of life issues and long-term health issues he risks resuming an NFL career.
I think its sad,. he's a unique unstoppable and fun force of nature, and a blast to cheer for. I may be accused of over-reacting, but I think he's better served weighing the quality of life issues and long-term health issues he risks resuming an NFL career.
There's no way he plays again this year - if his rehab goes according to plan, he'll likely be back next year. Whether he plays 1, 2, 4 more years... whatever, I think he's going to finish more years on IR than not. It's a shame, he's a transcendent talent but his long-term viability just isn't there.
I do wonder about that hamstring injury earlier this year - it very well could have been an early manifestation of this most recent injury. Herniated discs can cause pain that radiates into the hamstring - I'm totally speculating here but he could have had a minor disc bulge, gotten an epidural that made it tolerable but then reinjured it in the Jets game. Who the hell knows. It does suck, though
I do wonder about that hamstring injury earlier this year - it very well could have been an early manifestation of this most recent injury. Herniated discs can cause pain that radiates into the hamstring - I'm totally speculating here but he could have had a minor disc bulge, gotten an epidural that made it tolerable but then reinjured it in the Jets game. Who the hell knows. It does suck, though
The hospital gown, non-skid yellow socks and the walker, with a superstar tight end. Hard to fathom.
