Liverpool 2016-17: Klopp's Kop

Nick Kaufman

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I think it is completely the opposite in soccer. More than in other sports the two jobs should be intimately connected, as system fit is absolutely crucial in putting together a winning side.
I think the sport in which coaching makes the most difference is American football. There, the game not only has a paper-rock-scissors dynamic, in which good gameplanning makes a difference, but the coach literally calls every play for his team. That's what happens less in soccer where after a certain point, players just play.

In soccer, there are many ways a coach makes a difference. What you say about it's not necessary. While there are coaches who have their mind set on the way their team should play, for many coaches the mentality is how to squeeze the most out of a particular group without a preconceived notion on what formation or mentality a team should adopt. This seems the more correct approach to me.

I should also point out that there has been research done examining team performance before and after mid-season coaching firings and has found no difference in team results before or after. That's the case with Klopp last year as wellas well. I don't think that he's a bad coach, but if coaching made a difference, you would expect for the coach to lead to an increase in points per game while working with the same personnel as his predecessor. I also think that trying to explain Liverpool's variance in performance during the Rodgers-Klopp years is better explained by the changes in player personnel than trying to argue that Rodgers was great in 2014, then started sucking, then Klopp took over, but there was no change because he needed time to teach his system and then magically things improved after he did so during the summer - where coincidentally there was also roster turnover.

The funny thing about soccer is that the vast majority of coaches leave their teams as failures regardless of how many good seasons they have put in. Klopp had a few great seasons with Dortmund and when Dortmund had a crappy season which was likely just caused by bad luck, he was fired. All the same, all the coaches who are departing as failures tend to be welcomed as saviors replacing the current failing coach who fans can't stand. And that story keeps repeating itself without fans seemingly able to get a whiff of it.
 

67YAZ

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There's no assessing Rodger's tenure without also reckoning that the club ownership was a group of Americans new to professional football with some big ideas about how they could improve the team and turn a profit under under Financial Fair Play. And to his credit, Rodgers has been generally quite gracious about his 'Pool tenure.

Arguments that Klopp is winning with Rodgers' squad would hold more weight if: 1. we had a better handle on how transfer decisions were made during Rodger's time and 2. Rodgers and Klopp ran much more similar systems.

All the same, all the coaches who are departing as failures tend to be welcomed as saviors replacing the current failing coach who fans can't stand. And that story keeps repeating itself without fans seemingly able to get a whiff of it.
Like Joe Maddon and Terry Francona?
 

67YAZ

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Here come the kids for today's cup tilt with Spurs (except for a couple grizzled vets holding together the back line).

Starting XI: Mignolet, Alexander-Arnold, Lucas, Klavan, Moreno, Stewart, Wijnaldum, Grujic, Ejaria, Origi, Sturridge
Subs: Karius, Clyne, Lovren, Can, Lallana, Mane, Ings

I was hoping Ings would get the start given his sensational form with the U-23s. And nice to see Wijnaldum starting, a sign that the hamstring injury has passed.

Also, our "American" friend Cameron Carter-Vickers gets the start for Spurs.
 
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SoxFanInCali

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Sturridge on the board after 9 minutes.

My cable listings said BeIN Sports would be broadcasting this game, but they are jumping around to all the games RedZone-style instead.
 

SoxFanInCali

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They seem to be flipping around to every game EXCEPT Liverpool-Spurs. I wonder if they lost the feed and are improvising.
 

SoxFanInCali

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Score 2, concede one to set up a nervy finish, and hold on for the win.

I feel like I see that game a lot with this team.
 

67YAZ

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Right now this squad makes me think of...



"But you see there's just one thing - we never do nothin' nice and easy."
 

SocrManiac

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http://www.espnfc.co.uk/liverpool/story/2986278/liverpool-using-rugby-tackle-pads-to-help-loris-karius-settle-in-england

This is reinforcing my belief that Achterberg has been a source of LFC's goalkeeping woes over the past few seasons. The picture in the article itself should illustrate why this isn't effective training. Goalkeepers don't fight through regular and identifiable objects when dealing with crosses. His hands shouldn't be on a rugby pad. He needs to find a path through bodies that are elbowing, kicking, and kneeing while maintaining eye contact with the ball and protecting himself.

I'd be more concerned with Karius suddenly forgetting how to handle the ball at his feet. That was supposed to be his major upgrade over Mignolet. If he doesn't have that advantage, it's hard to say he's a better pure shot stopper than the Belgian.

A number of goalkeepers have come to the club now and regressed badly. It can't be pinned solely goalkeepers anymore.
 

67YAZ

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Is it still too much of a reach to call this attacking crew the "Fab 4"? Just brilliant stuff.

Can with his third consecutive start, but Wijnaldum on for Mane once it hit 5-0. Is Klopp grooming Wijnadlum for Mane's role once the African Cup gets going?
 

SoxFanInCali

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If Barca comes calling for pretty much any player out there, he is going to listen. I doubt Neymar has to do a sell job, it just comes down to who the club decides to target.

I've always been surprised that City hasn't come after Coutinho, if for no other reason than to stop him scoring against them.
 

PedroSpecialK

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Some (selfishly) good news on one of the more trying days ever - Liverpool interested in Iranian international Sardar Azmoun for the January window, as Ings is now out long-term once again and Mané and will be gone during AFCoN.

 

SoxFanInCali

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I genuinely didn't know that was the media angle- I don't read much on the game outside of these forums.

This probably belongs in the LFC thread...

So far this season (not today in particular), when Sturridge sees the pitch he's playing like a lone striker. That shot Bradley took against Mexico instead of laying it off? That's the type of thing I expect from Sturridge. He's fantastically talented and often makes something from nothing (the goal against Sevilla last year comes to mind). He's just a stereotypical diva-type lone wolf.
Grabbed this from the game thread.

As I said in there, I don't see a big issue with Sturridge's attitude, it's just he's not as good at Klopp's preferred playing style as the guys who are starting (Firmino, Mane, Coutinho). Liverpool are blessed with some great attacking options when you consider that Sturridge and Origi can barely get a game. We know that Mane is going to be gone for the ACN and there will no doubt be injuries, so we will see how well they can be worked in.

Does Sturridge sometime take a shot when there are better options? Of course, what striker doesn't? But I think he's shown when playing with Suarez and through flashes since that he can set up others as well as score. Today he did a great job beating his man wide and putting in the cross that Clyne really should have put away. The bigger question is whether he can put in a 90 minute shift that includes pressing from the front, still be an effective scorer, and remain healthy.

The team did finally get the clean sheet the media has been asking for. Proving once again that I'd rather concede one or two while scoring a bundle than play a 0-0. I think that's been the score of the last 2 clean sheets (including the Man United game).
 

SoxFanInCali

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Steven Gerrard has announced his retirement from the game.

When thinking of my favorite moments as a sports fan, David Ortiz is probably the only athlete that has given me more of them than Gerrard.



 

SocrManiac

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If that's a broken leg for Cou, Champions League will be a challenge.

It's going to be a total scheme change for Klopp now.

Doesn't help that Sturridge is still made of wet tissue paper. JD Drew thinks Sturridge is weak.
 

SoxFanInCali

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While Coutinho getting hurt obviously sucked, it was good to see them be able to play a more direct, aggressive style when Origi came in. They are going to have to deal with teams playing 10 behind the ball.

It was great watching Klopp jump up and get the crowd going. They were starting to moan and groan with each missed chance, but really responded when Klopp called them on it.
 

67YAZ

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Klopp is killing it. He called himself and optimist and hopes Coutinho will be ready for training today. I can't imagine that injury is anything less than a month on the shelf, if not much, much longer.

In the upside, Origi showed some real class creating a half chance for himself and then burying it. Fantastic stuff. 'Pool will need more of that against parked "double decker buses" (which is what Moyes called his strategy).

Right now, Can does not have strong finishing skills and that is hampering the side's ability to unlock packed defenses. I thought Wijnaldum was more threatening from in that role, but Klopp seems committed to using him further up now as the first sub for the Big 4.

I agree either SoxCaninCali that things will have to be more direct now. Coutinho just did too many things well to be replaced. Maybe Firmino moves out wide (which hurts because he has been the team's best player in that withdrawn/False 9 role), and Sturridge/Origi play a more traditional striker role. That hurts the counter press, but might be the necessary trade off to muster goals against heavily defensive sides.

Bournemouth will be a test. Howe will have a good defensive set up and he has better counter attacking players available than Sunderland. They could steal a game of 'Pool can't figure out a new mode of attack.
 

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Coutinho out up to 6 weeks with ligament damage. That's a relief. The site of it had me fearing much worse.

There's also a note at the end of this article that Lallana and Sturridge is out mid-week against Leeds, and Firmino is doubtful. It will be intriguing to see how Klopp sets up the attack.
The Leeds game is definitely going to be a B Team enterprise. Although there were some suggestions in the Liverpool media that Mane would have to play due to a simple lack of other options.

Thank god for the cup cake schedule for the next few weeks. The only tough games are the Everton Derby and City.
 

SoxFanInCali

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Newcastle miss 3 of 4 penalties (including one from JONJO!) and lose to Hull, ending the chance of a Rafa reunion in the semis.
 

SoxFanInCali

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Well, this made me feel old.

Ben Woodburn scored 18 years to the day after Steven Gerrard made his Liverpool first-team debut. Gerrard's debut came nearly a year before Woodburn was born.
 

SoxFanInCali

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Southampton in the EFL Cup semis. 2 legged tie in January.

Potential final against the Mancs should both teams advance.
 

SocrManiac

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"Disappointing result" doesn't quite cover it.

Sometimes, for giggles, I'll visit This is Anfield after a loss to see the irrational reaction. This didn't disappoint. They rated Lucas over Lovren. To do that demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of what is happening on the pitch.

We've talked at length about how dependent the attack is on a stable formation. I think the three goals scored against Bournemouth is misleading given Boruc's contributions to two of them and the moment of brilliance from Can (shades of Coutinho masking an ineffective attack in years past). What we haven't really brought up is how important that same stability seems to be at the back, specifically for Lovren to be effective.

When paired with Skrtel, Lovren looked like one of the biggest flop defensive signings in recent memory (thankfully masked by Glen Johnson...). Looking deeper, it was clear that Lovren was caught out of position by Skrtel's unpredictable nature (outside of the brain farts and miscues). Your center back pairing needs to have at least a cursory understanding of roles and/or great communication. Skrtel/Lovren had neither. Lovren was often in no-man's land between the ball and a man, effectively taken out of the picture entirely. That's exactly what I saw with Lovren and Lucas yesterday. Lucas wandered up as a CDM far too often for my liking. He was challenging aggressively on Lovren's side of the pitch, even as Dejan was beginning his move. Lovren would have to reset and find himself right back in no-man's land. There were a couple of occasions where, once the ball was secured, he'd look up and find Lucas out wider than Clyne. The partnership simply didn't click and the defense was shambolic as a result.

The second issue was also discussed in the game thread. Karius isn't the guy. Mignolet has a number of faults, but he is a world class shot stopper. I fully understand that, in today's game, that isn't enough. Technique with the ball at one's feet is highly prized- look at Pep's use of Bravo over Hart. Something similar is happening at City, though- Bravo isn't anywhere near the shot stopper that Hart is and City have conceded a number of goals they wouldn't have.

I genuinely don't believe Mignolet coughs up the rebound for the losing goal. I also think he saves the second. His technique on penalties is also far superior, but I won't posit that he would save one. Karius doesn't seem any stronger on crosses, he's had similar lapses with the ball at his feet. If those qualities are showing as equal, with the significant downgrade in shot stopping ability should he still be on the pitch as the number one? My answer is no.
 

67YAZ

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That's a good breakdown. We've been taking Matip for granted all season.

My only possible explanation for playing Lucas over Klavan is that Lucas provides quality passing from the CB position. In matches against sides that seem likely to park the bus, where 'Pool will have a huge advantage in possession, and most of he defending will consist of running down counterattacks, I can see how the risk/reward might tip in favor of Lucas over Klavan. It sort of worked out that way in the first half, but it all came undone in the second when Ryan Frickin' Fraser came on and started running straight at goal. The back line just couldn't handle Fraser and Wilson coming direct. That's a basic failure of organization, and it's not just Lucas' fault. Karius needs to be in charge back there, call out the assignments, and keep Lucas in position. And as much as I hate to say it, some it falls on Milner. Several times a game I can see him deciding where to go, often caught between following a run out wide and the ball coming down the channel (e.g., the first goal yesterday). He's not instinctive at LB. Milner has done a yeoman's job learning a new position on the fly, but he does put pressure on the CBs every match.
 

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Alright, I've been more patient with Karius than a lot of others in this thread. After his performance on that free kick, I'm now willing to admit my patience was misguided.

Aaaand, as I compose this, he lets in a second atrocious goal.
 

SocrManiac

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The wall setup is inexcusable. You learn that shit as a 10 year old.

Right footer, middle of the field. You want the ball curling back into you, not away. You therefore set up the wall to protect the left post and stand on the right side.
 

67YAZ

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Karius needs to sit and rebuild his confidence. That second goal smacks of a keeper unsure of himself. He's young, especially for a top-flight keeper, and he has played much better than this. He can be salvaged. Maybe LFC should look into hiring a goalkeeping coach who could do that.

Lovren reportedly went out with a cramp at half time, Klopp feared it might strain his hamstring. Or something. Klopp seems to downplay every injury, or in his own terms, he's just an "optimist" about these things.

Was heartened to see Origi playing with some real fluidity and awareness today, swapping positions with Lallana and Mane across the front line all day. He doesn't have the vision and precise passing to make the most of it, though. His passes are either the simple ones or off target. Hopefully this skill will develop in Klopp's system, where for the first time he is being asked to do more than hold up or drive to the net.

I'm looking for silver linings here....Wijnaldum playing back in the middle was not the spark I had been hoping for. He looked as sloppy as Can today.
 

SocrManiac

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Winjaldum was absolutely awful. He inherited Can's "Can't hit the Target" disease in spades.

Klopp has a little Belichick in him when it comes to injury reporting. It was nice to see Lovren look like you'd expect when paired up with Matip again. I really would like to see a Lovren/Klavan partnership on a Cup game at some point, just to see how they look together. Lovren's confidence in his partner dictates whether or not he's an effective defender. Let's build that up now. At least Matip confirmed he won't be headed to Africa- I was more worried that we'd be losing Matip and Lovren for that spell based on what we saw last week (whistling past the graveyard not mentioning Mane).

Henderson has taken a page out of Skrtel's book and started inexplicably heading the ball. On at least three occasions that I can recall in the second half, a ball floated out to him 15-20 yards outside of the West Ham Box. Each time he had nobody near him. Each time he played a weak header to a teammate, forcing them to sprint after the ball under pressure. On every single occasion he had ample opportunity to bring the ball down and play it, and on two of them he had dangerous passes available. One of them was to Milner who was forced to abort his run and chase after the ball with a defender clipping his heels.

As for your goalkeeping coach comment... I think I've said enough on that topic...

You can tangibly blame Karius for the past two games (and I do), but these are two in a row that Coutinho would have sealed and delivered as well. Injuries suck.
 

67YAZ

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Satisfying win yesterday. It's going be tough going without Mane in January.

That said, a few stray thoughts on the upcoming transfer window. Klopp did a lot of clearing out an cleaning up this summer, bringing in good transfer fees (e.g., Benteke) and reducing the wage bill (e.g., Balotelli). We've all seen how the big movement out has left the team without a lot of quality depth when injuries hit. My guess is that Klopp will look into some of his long term, youthful targets to see if they can be brought in to serve as depth.

Like Mahmoud Dahoud. Rumors have it that he has a €12m release clause that kicks in this summer. With Borussia out of the Champions League and hovering mid-table, they might be willing to move Dahoud now to get the extra €10-15m he could fetch now. Or they might go all in on resigning him with a much higher release. In either case, I expect Dahoud's agency to push very hard for a resolution this window. Worth noting that Dahoud and Can share the same agency.

There's been lots of rumors about a new attacker coming in, but nothing really seems to make sense or be more than routine gossip. Pulisic would be a blast and makes a lot of business sense for LFC, but hard to imagine Dortmund letting him go now when he's playing key matches and driving his value up by the week. Quincy Promes' name has been bandied about, but hard to see Spartak selling while at the top of the table; maybe if they bring in Memphis Depay? Big if there. With Origi settling in and Coutinho coming back, Klopp might not see a real need here unless a key target suddenly becomes available at a good price. This also means we could see Woodburn get significant minutes if a couple injuries hit. (Then I'd have a new use for my "Feel the Bern" t-shirts, slight fix required.)

Newcastles' CB Lescelles has been a recent rumor, but again hard to see why Newcastle would part with the young man unless he starts to clamor for the move. More CB depth seems a high priority to me, but not much smoke here in terms of other rumors.

On that note, Klopp is about 2 weeks short of airing commercials in France: "For just €60k a week, you can help this young man fulfill his dreams of playing competitive football." (Insert sad Sakho image.) Some Ligue 1 team will take the leap eventually.

If a new CB does come in, Lucas could (should) be on his way out, maybe to a Turkish or Russian side competing for the top of the table that would do a low fee/larger wages kind of deal.

While Sturridge has been a poor fit in Klopp's system, I think the past few weeks have shown us his value to the side as a high impact sub. Other than Sturridge, 'Pool lack a player that can come in late and spark the attack. On the other hand, I have to think that despite his quiet professionalism, Sturridge would prefer to be starting someplace else. Then you figure in his injury history, LFC's rumored £28m valuation, and his wages (reportedly £120k/week through 2018/19), and its hard to see which side would take the plunge (aside from a crazy offer from China). My guess is that Sturridge stays on as a super-sub and Klopp prays nightly for continued health so that a deal can be found this summer.
 
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