Mike Hazen new ARZ GM, Amiel Sawdaye New ARZ senior VP and assistant GM

E5 Yaz

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The precise nature of the relationship between Hazen and La Russa remains to be seen, but it seems that the former will attempt to embrace the latter’s experience. “I know that the game is moving in a particular direction with the buzzword of analytics,” Hazen explained. “(But) there’s no replacing the softer parts of the game, the knowledge of how to manage a human being. … “Those things I’m confident that Tony’s going to be able to help with and I look forward to hearing what he has to say on all those things.”

La Russa struck a similar tone, saying: “I think there’s a real place in front offices for guys that have uniform experience, just so you can help balance the metrics (with) some of that baseball expertise that’s come along for 100 years.”
 

richgedman'sghost

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It's clear that Dombrowski has had most if not all the power since he came on, but I'd rather have him surrounded by smart people rather than Frank effin Wren even if he makes all the final decisions.
Could I understand why everyone is so against Frank Wren? On the one hand I can understand wanting to promote one of the younger members of the front office and will not argue that point. My question I guess is that I thought he did a decent job in Atlanta. Not an A plus job but more like a B minus grade. The Braves did win the NL East while he was there. A lot of the screw ups in Atlanta during that time could more accurately be placed on the feet of Fredi Gonzales the manager. Certainly I don't think Wren deserves the scorn derision and hatred he is receiving from this board. Am I mistaken? Please clue me in? Of course this is all probably moot anyway since DD holds all the power.
 

E5 Yaz

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Could I understand why everyone is so against Frank Wren? On the one hand I can understand wanting to promote one of the younger members of the front office and will not argue that point. My question I guess is that I thought he did a decent job in Atlanta. Not an A plus job but more like a B minus grade. The Braves did win the NL East while he was there. A lot of the screw ups in Atlanta during that time could more accurately be placed on the feet of Fredi Gonzales the manager. Certainly I don't think Wren deserves the scorn derision and hatred he is receiving from this board. Am I mistaken? Please clue me in? Of course this is all probably moot anyway since DD holds all the power.
This blog breaks down his moves, and would seem to support your B- theory. The biggest problem with Wren (as it is with Baird) is that he's seen as a retread who never truly succeeded the last time around. As you said, it really depends on what responsibilities and authority that Dombrowski gives the GM.

http://www.talkingchop.com/2014/9/26/6848977/frank-wrens-tenure-in-atlanta-a-deep-dive
 

soxhop411

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Boston Analytics Dir. Tom Tippett the lastest to leave Bosox. Question around GM circles:would Amiel Sawdaye take the diminished Boston GM
10/18/16, 12:37 PM
 

mauf

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So he's wondering if Sawdaye would take a ("diminished") GM role with the Boston Red Sox, or go work under the GM for the Arizona Diamondbacks? Isn't that a pretty easy call?
If the role in Arizona is equivalent to his current role, then yes, it's an easy call. If he'd be a clear-cut #2 in Arizona, then he's essentially weighing two assistant GM roles and picking his boss -- I don't think the title inflation here in Boston means much to others in the industry.

Olney thinks Sawdaye will stay if he's offered the GM position here in Boston.

http://www.espn.com/blog/mlb/rumors/post/_/id/29899/mlb-rumor-central-could-amiel-sawdaye-join-the-diamondbacks
 

JohntheBaptist

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If the role in Arizona is equivalent to his current role, then yes, it's an easy call. If he'd be a clear-cut #2 in Arizona, then he's essentially weighing two assistant GM roles and picking his boss -- I don't think the title inflation here in Boston means much to others in the industry.

Olney thinks Sawdaye will stay if he's offered the GM position here in Boston.

http://www.espn.com/blog/mlb/rumors/post/_/id/29899/mlb-rumor-central-could-amiel-sawdaye-join-the-diamondbacks
All true, but I wonder how plausible "clear cut #2" would be with the continued presence of TLR in AZ. Granted he's likely on thin ice now, but yeah. Should be interesting. The brain drain is freaking me out a little.
 

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Well I'm happy with his current position as well. Takes care of that.
Tyrone ..Upthread I asked you a question and you did not answer it. Why are you so full of hatred and disdain towards Frank Wren? Like I said I'm not saying he's the be all or end all to this search but I fail to understand your hatred of the man. Truth be told I would probably prefer one of the young guns get the job and it's a moot point anyway at this point. Just don't get the hate but all's good I guess.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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Tyrone ..Upthread I asked you a question and you did not answer it. Why are you so full of hatred and disdain towards Frank Wren? Like I said I'm not saying he's the be all or end all to this search but I fail to understand your hatred of the man. Truth be told I would probably prefer one of the young guns get the job and it's a moot point anyway at this point. Just don't get the hate but all's good I guess.
I'm not full of hatred with Frank Wren at all. All things being considered he didn't do a terrible job with regards to trades during his most recent tenure as GM. He just doesn't jive with the direction this team is going. They need to keep as much talent in house as possible. Whether it be Sawdaye Romero or another candidate.
 
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FinanceAdvice

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I'm interested to find out what SOSH members feel is the current philosophy/business model of the Red Sox? ANd as a follow-up what do members feel SHOULD be the philosophy/business model.
 

JimD

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The philosophy should be first and foremost to build and support a consistently successful major league baseball team through intelligent roster management, smart player acquisition strategies and maintaining a strong player development machine. I believe the Red Sox ownership group strives to do this but they have shown too often that they are not disciplined enough to trust their baseball operations team to fully follow through on this strategy, resulting in periodic interference and the resulting signing of splashy free agents that the business side of the organization can market on NESN. Time will tell if Dave Dombrowski will be given the full resources and freedom to run the baseball side that was seemingly withheld from Theo and Ben.
 

FinanceAdvice

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The philosophy should be first and foremost to build and support a consistently successful major league baseball team through intelligent roster management, smart player acquisition strategies and maintaining a strong player development machine. I believe the Red Sox ownership group strives to do this but they have shown too often that they are not disciplined enough to trust their baseball operations team to fully follow through on this strategy, resulting in periodic interference and the resulting signing of splashy free agents that the business side of the organization can market on NESN. Time will tell if Dave Dombrowski will be given the full resources and freedom to run the baseball side that was seemingly withheld from Theo and Ben.
Thanks! So what you're saying is Epstein was more than happy to leave Boston and he has more freedom to oversee baseball ops in Chicago? I was/am a big fan of Epstein and '13 being an outlier, I believe his departure along with Tito caused a void in baseball success in Boston. Hopefully '16 is a start in a better direction. Prospects look good but still question pitching prospects and pitching development.
 

lexrageorge

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Thanks! So what you're saying is Epstein was more than happy to leave Boston and he has more freedom to oversee baseball ops in Chicago? I was/am a big fan of Epstein and '13 being an outlier, I believe his departure along with Tito caused a void in baseball success in Boston. Hopefully '16 is a start in a better direction. Prospects look good but still question pitching prospects and pitching development.
As to the first sentence, the circumstances around Theo's departure were pretty obvious. He was still reporting to Larry Lucchino, who was ultimately responsible for all of baseball operations (as well as the non-baseball part of the organization). Theo got a promotion to move to the Cubs; he runs baseball ops, period. Now, he still has to answer to the Cubs owners, but from everything we've heard, there's a lot less regular interference with baseball decisions, interference that caused Theo to leave the Red Sox twice.

I'm not sure Dombrowski's philosophy will be entirely different. Like Epstein, he has said he will use data from both the analytics team and the scouts to drive decisions. As for the development of pitching prospects, it's too early to tell. In the first 7 rounds of Dombrowski's single draft, the Sox selected 4 pitchers, 1 HS and 3 college.
 

strek1

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The philosophy should be first and foremost to build and support a consistently successful major league baseball team through intelligent roster management, smart player acquisition strategies and maintaining a strong player development machine. I believe the Red Sox ownership group strives to do this but they have shown too often that they are not disciplined enough to trust their baseball operations team to fully follow through on this strategy, resulting in periodic interference and the resulting signing of splashy free agents that the business side of the organization can market on NESN. Time will tell if Dave Dombrowski will be given the full resources and freedom to run the baseball side that was seemingly withheld from Theo and Ben.
I think the complete "Freedom" thing is an illusion. Unless you're the guy writing the checks as well as making the deals you're never going to have full freedom to do what you want. Somebody has to sign off on it.
 

FinanceAdvice

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As to the first sentence, the circumstances around Theo's departure were pretty obvious. He was still reporting to Larry Lucchino, who was ultimately responsible for all of baseball operations (as well as the non-baseball part of the organization). Theo got a promotion to move to the Cubs; he runs baseball ops, period. Now, he still has to answer to the Cubs owners, but from everything we've heard, there's a lot less regular interference with baseball decisions, interference that caused Theo to leave the Red Sox twice.

I'm not sure Dombrowski's philosophy will be entirely different. Like Epstein, he has said he will use data from both the analytics team and the scouts to drive decisions. As for the development of pitching prospects, it's too early to tell. In the first 7 rounds of Dombrowski's single draft, the Sox selected 4 pitchers, 1 HS and 3 college.
Appreciate your input. I may be wrong but to me the two most important positions are Pitching first and a close second catching. While the Sox have a good history of grooming catching ( Varitek , although if memory serves me correctly he came over in a trade?) but in pitching there seems to be a lack of drafting or IFA acquisitions on the pitching level. So while I realize its too early to tell, do the Sox have a sound approach on not only who to draft but also on how to develop their pitchers? We'll never know with Espinoza but you may have somewhat of an indication with Buchholz. It seems to be we almost have to rely on FA's and trades. Interested in the young Groome. From Ian Cundall, Director of Scouting:

"It was only a two-inning stint, but Groome’s advanced three-pitch mix was on display, and it’s not a stretch to project all three to be at least above-average, if not better. Given his size, delivery, youth, and left-handedness, he has the makings of one of the top pitching prospects in not just the Red Sox system, but all of baseball. There are definitely areas to improve upon, and his youth and frame bring in some risk to the equation, but Groome’s upside on the mound is significant."

Is this the way to go or do we rely on trades (i.e Chris Sale) or FA's?
 

BestGameEvah

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Oct 21 from AZCentral.com

Hazen said the team’s search for a new manager hasn’t progressed to the point of asking other clubs for permission to speak with potential candidates.
“As much as we want to move through the process as quick as possible, we don’t have an exact list yet for candidates,” Hazen said. “But hopefully in the next week or so we’ll be able to do that.”
Hazen said he anticipates interviewing somewhere between five to 10 candidates. He did not want to speculate on any potential candidates. The widespread industry assumption is that Red Sox bench coach Torey Lovullo is the leading candidate for the position.
 

soxhop411

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“@pgammo: While in Boston Amiel Sawdaye weighing between Red Sox GM and 'Backs ass't gm, one of his good friends says to watch out for the Twins”
 

jasvlm

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I don't know if this is the space for such speculation, but I'll throw it out there: given that Hazen is in Arizona now, and is tasked with rebuilding the team, is it crazy to posit that Goldschmidt could be trade bait, and that he'd be a good fit in Boston? He's 29 next year, and has 3 years and 35 mil left on his contract, making him an extremely attractive value. He's been durable, is a good fielder, gets on base, and is still in his prime. Hazen, in knowing the Red Sox system, is in the unique position to ask for the types of players he'd like to build his new team around, making this possible deal more than just wish casting.

It would almost certainly cost Devers, Kopech, Shaw, maybe Dalbec and perhaps one of the younger, recently drafted fellows (not Groome) to land Goldschmidt. I would imagine that would make Hanley a full time DH, something that may or may not be to his liking. Still, that would lengthen the lineup dramatically:
Pedroia, Benintendi, Bogaerts, Betts, Goldschmidt, Hanley, Bradley Jr, Shaw, Leon/Vazquez.

Would it be better to get the in his prime player at a cheaper contract level at the cost of the prospects, or just to sign the 34 year old Encarnacion to a 4/80 or so and lose the first round pick but save the prospects?
 

soxhop411

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When general manager Mike Hazen left the Red Sox earlier this month, president of baseball operations Dave Dombrowski said his intent was to hold interviews and hire a replacement.

That may no longer be the case. Asked Monday if he still planned to name a new general manager, Dombrowski said he couldn’t answer that question.

“Still working on some final decisions,” he said.


For organizations like the Red Sox, Cubs, and Dodgers, the president of baseball operations makes all significant decisions, and the general manager is essentially an assistant with a lofty title but little actual power.

Given those realities, the Red Sox could dispense with the position and replace Hazen’s administrative duties in another fashion via internal promotions or external additions to the staff.

There is a strong possibility that Red Sox vice president of amateur and international scouting Amiel Sawdaye will join Hazen with the Diamondbacks as his top assistant.

Arizona also needs a manager, and Red Sox bench coach Torey Lovullo is a leading candidate for that position.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2016/10/24/red-sox-may-not-fill-their-opening/mP6fjKHMGB1wJMyxrvHbjN/story.html

More at the link
 

soxhop411

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Evan Drellich ‏@EvanDrellich 9m9 minutes ago
Source: the Diamondbacks have yet to request permission on Torey Lovullo, waiting for Amiel Sawdaye to make his choice.


Evan Drellich ‏@EvanDrellich 8m8 minutes ago
Amiel Sawdaye choosing between three assistant GM like roles: with the Sox, Arizona and Twins. Multiple sources expect he joins D-backs

Evan Drellich ‏@EvanDrellich 3m3 minutes ago
Evan Drellich Retweeted Evan Drellich

To clarify: choice for Amiel Sawdaye is really between Arizona and Red Sox.
 

JimD

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Not good when Sawdaye turns down the Sox GM position for the D'backs assistant GM role. The presence of Dombrowski sure seems to be signalling to the younger talent that their promotional opportunities in Boston aren't that bright.
 

soxhop411

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Not good when Sawdaye turns down the Sox GM position for the D'backs assistant GM role. The presence of Dombrowski sure seems to be signalling to the younger talent that their promotional opportunities in Boston aren't that bright.
Sox did not offer him the him the GM role.... They offered him the AGM. infact the Sox are not hiring a GM

Alex Speier ‏@alexspeier 2m2 minutes ago
The Red Sox were offering Amiel Sawdaye asst GM role, but not GM...adding to sense in .@PeteAbe report that Sox might not hire a GM.

Alex Speier ‏@alexspeier 14s15 seconds ago
Indeed, multiple major league sources expect that the Sox aren't going to hire a GM.
 

DeadlySplitter

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Not good when Sawdaye turns down the Sox GM position for the D'backs assistant GM role. The presence of Dombrowski sure seems to be signalling to the younger talent that their promotional opportunities in Boston aren't that bright.
these are all Ben's guys, right? did they advocate hoarding prospects like Ben did?

Ben was run out because he hoarded a bit too much and signed the wrong FAs. All that said, some of his decisions look much better a year later, but that doesn't fly in Boston and we need to see what year 3 brings on Hanley, Rick.
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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these are all Ben's guys, right? did they advocate hoarding prospects like Ben did?

Ben was run out because he hoarded a bit too much and signed the wrong FAs. All that said, some of his decisions look much better a year later, but that doesn't fly in Boston and we need to see what year 3 brings on Hanley, Rick.
What does "...that doesn't fly in Boston" mean? If you mean the average fan doesn't accept losing seasons, ever, well, that's irrelevant. I don't care if the average fan is too spoiled to accept that even the richest teams have to hit the reset button once in a while.

Ben Cherington's goal when he took over after Theo left was not to win immediately or every single year. His goal was to build a long term, sustainable core of players so that the team could go on a half decade run of playoff appearances, or more. He succeeded. It's a real shame that people still talk shit about him now that he's gone because the problem wasn't so much with his approach. It was with the fans and their spoiled "must win now" bullshit.

He took over a team that needed to be rebuilt. He started that rebuild in 2012 and set them on a course toward being a very good team right about when they got very good. The second half of 2012-the end of 2015 was always supposed to be a transition to the next great core of players. If things went really well, maybe they'd have been a playoff team in 2015 3 full years of breaking in young players and acquiring long term assets in trades and free agency isn't unreasonable.

Fortunately, they got lucky and cobbled together a roster full of career years and great chemistry that won a title in 2013. The unfortunate part of that title is that it convinced a big segment of the fanbase that the rebuild was over, only it wasn't. It really was still just getting underway.

The signings of Pablo and Hanley weren't permanent answers. When you are a team as rich as the Sox, you can afford to plug holes while you wait for prospects to mature by throwing $100M contracts around. I wrote a piece about this for the dot com last year, so I won't rehash the entire argument here, but the TL:DR version is that signings like that coincided with the expected ETAs of a bunch of prospects.

Did the signings all work out like 2013? Obviously no. Hanley still looks like a pretty good pick up, as far as free agent value goes. Panda has been almost entirely sunk cost so far, and I'm as inclined as anyone to write him and his contract off. You win some, you lose some. Porcello looks like a very savvy extension. Castillo was a big miss. Moncada was a big win. Eduardo was great value for a half season of Miller. Kelly was decent value in the Lackey trade, but has certainly come up short of hopes. Craig was a waste of a roster space. Overall, though, he had enough wins/good decisions to set up the 2016 club for big success. Dombrowski needed to plug in the last holes. Cherington may have been able to do that just as well, but we'll never know for sure.

No matter how you look at it, however, Bogaerts, Bradley, Betts, Swihart, Eduardo, Moncada, Shaw, Leon, Benintendi, and Porcello are all players with major league experience that Cherington had a big hand in acquiring and/or developing. And he's still got Sam Travis, Devers, Kopech, and Ockimey in the minors to hang his hat on. That's a ton of young talent for the long haul.

He made mistakes, but so does every GM. The end result, however, is undeniable. He built the core he was after. The only reason he's gone is that Dombrowski, someone with a long history with Henry, became available unexpectedly right after the team moved on from their previous president of baseball ops and Cherington chose to walk away rather than take a step back with his responsibilities. That might not have been the wisest decision, but it's certainly understandable. What we don't have here, however, is any evidence that his performance as GM "didn't fly in Boston."
 

nattysez

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these are all Ben's guys, right? did they advocate hoarding prospects like Ben did?
I think they were for the most part Theo's guys who became Ben's guys.

If "hoarding" prospects means not overpaying for Craig Kimbrel and an injured Drew Pomeranz, sign me up.

The Cubs' front office works in part because Theo, Jed and others share responsibility so that there's no one person stuck making all the big decisions. DD appears to be moving in the opposite direction, letting smart guys leave so he can consolidate power. He's not even maintaining the artifice of having a GM. This does not feel like the right direction to go in. I guess we'll see.
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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I think they were for the most part Theo's guys who became Ben's guys.

If "hoarding" prospects means not overpaying for Craig Kimbrel and an injured Drew Pomeranz, sign me up.

The Cubs' front office works in part because Theo, Jed and others share responsibility so that there's no one person stuck making all the big decisions. DD appears to be moving in the opposite direction, letting smart guys leave so he can consolidate power. He's not even maintaining the artifice of having a GM. This does not feel like the right direction to go in. I guess we'll see.
There is zero evidence that Dombrowski is looking to consolidate power. In fact, it's really dumb to suggest he's doing this as he doesn't need to. He's already at the top of the pyramid. The power is all already his.

Does it really suck that so much front office talent is leaving? Yeah, it does. Hopefully they replace some of these people with equally talented new hires or promotions. That said, the farm based rebuild is basically done. The new core is mostly in place with the last few interesting/highly touted prospects not far off. What they need to win a few titles in the next 5 years or so is someone capable of maneuvering at the major league level and Dombrowski is pretty good on the front.

They're positioned to be really good for the foreseeable future. If they don't rebuild the front office with people who are great a resupplying the farm, that run of excellence will probably require another firm press on the reset button, but right now is about the best time possible for this kind of front office exodus to take place (if there ever IS a good time for one).
 

jimbobim

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I'm not over the moon with Arizona picking our FO people off but I'm holding off on really smashing the panic button for if Eddie Romero is allowed to be lured away. He's the international pointman and has been instrumental in acquiring Moncada Denvers Espinoza Margot etc from all reports I've seen. It's not like they're shutting down the analytics department.

I think Snod makes some good points. The MLB team and farm are pretty well stocked. Would it be nice to have some more young upside dynamic pitching close? Sure but Ed Rod Kopech Groome isn't a terrible start. Those pieces and young bats are also the hardest to get in the league.

The biggest issue DD has to address is the Papi sized hole in lineup and the bullpen. I also personally wouldn't put my faith in Zona ownership/Pres but hey there are only 30 of those jobs so you take what you can get sometimes I guess.
 

Auger34

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There is zero evidence that Dombrowski is looking to consolidate power. In fact, it's really dumb to suggest he's doing this as he doesn't need to. He's already at the top of the pyramid. The power is all already his.

Does it really suck that so much front office talent is leaving? Yeah, it does. Hopefully they replace some of these people with equally talented new hires or promotions. That said, the farm based rebuild is basically done. The new core is mostly in place with the last few interesting/highly touted prospects not far off. What they need to win a few titles in the next 5 years or so is someone capable of maneuvering at the major league level and Dombrowski is pretty good on the front.

They're positioned to be really good for the foreseeable future. If they don't rebuild the front office with people who are great a resupplying the farm, that run of excellence will probably require another firm press on the reset button, but right now is about the best time possible for this kind of front office exodus to take place (if there ever IS a good time for one).
I think what is happening is that Dombrowski isn't necessarily consolidating power but he is consolidating the amount of people he listens to and includes in decisions. I believe Tom Tippet had the quote of how when Theo was around it was a "think tank" and there would be as many as 25 people involved in decisions whereas Dombrowski prefers to have a much smaller group involved.
I can see that the people who were brought up in the "Theo way" would prefer to work in that type of environment and think that it offers more opportunity for growth and promotion.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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Since this seems like the place to discuss the restructuring of the organization:


Is Tewksbury paying the price for the seeming lack of mental focus in the team's approach versus the Indians?
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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I think what is happening is that Dombrowski isn't necessarily consolidating power but he is consolidating the amount of people he listens to and includes in decisions. I believe Tom Tippet had the quote of how when Theo was around it was a "think tank" and there would be as many as 25 people involved in decisions whereas Dombrowski prefers to have a much smaller group involved.
I can see that the people who were brought up in the "Theo way" would prefer to work in that type of environment and think that it offers more opportunity for growth and promotion.
I think it's certainly possible that with the new way big market teams are using the president of baseball ops role he is probably looking to improve efficiency and that you are correct in your guess about why so many of the old guard are leaving, at least as far as we need to look for reasons beyond people taking a step forward professionally. I just think the notion of Dombrowski feeling the need to consolidate power or the idea that he wouldn't be happy to be keeping these people around is silly.
 

bankshot1

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Not to over-analyze this, but the outflow of the younger in-house guys, most of whom grew up under Theo/Ben, and who were (I beleive) analytical types, for better opportunities elsewhere after one year of an older-schooll DD, on its face, is not a good sign.
 

canderson

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Not to over-analyze this, but the outflow of the younger in-house guys, most of whom grew up under Theo/Ben, and who were (I beleive) analytical types, for better opportunities elsewhere after one year of an older-schooll DD, on its face, is not a good sign.
My thoughts as well.

I'm worried.
 

Pinchrunner#2

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Not to over-analyze this, but the outflow of the younger in-house guys, most of whom grew up under Theo/Ben, and who were (I beleive) analytical types, for better opportunities elsewhere after one year of an older-schooll DD, on its face, is not a good sign.
I am very worried. To me the only thing that DD has done for the Red Sox since he came to Boston is maneuvering all the talent that Cherington, Romero, Sawdaye and Epstein got into the Red Sox organization. Now the Red Sox are losing young and progressive thinking FO personnel that is very highly regarded in the baseball industry. The Red Sox are quietly but surely moving away from being the scouting and developing machine that Epstein once envisoned them to be. This cannot be good.
 
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Papelbon's Poutine

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I am very worried. To me the only thing that DD has done for the Red Sox since he came to Boston is maneuvering all the talent that Cherington, Romero, Sawdaye and Epstein got into the Red Sox organization. Now the Red Sox are losing young and progressive thinking FO personnel that is very highly regarded in the baseball industry. The Red Sox are quietly but surely moving away from being the scouting and developing machine that Epstein once envisoned them to be. This cannot be good.
Good god.

They can't make them stay. If they are any good, another organization will try to hire them, if for nothing else than association with success.

We have no idea who did what or gets to take responsibility for their success and the organization hasn't been static for a long time.

It sucks to see them leave but the option is they weren't good to begin with and don't have three rings. It's not the end of the world and literally zero people here have any insight into how they plan to move forward or evolve, Nick Cafardo lamentation aside.