Umm, do we have a Cy Young winner ???

lusky

New Member
Jul 31, 2006
27
easley, sc
Rick Porcello for the Cy Young ? He's done for the regular season, would have been nice if the sox could have given him the win instead of coming from behind (very minor complaint). Most wins, lot of games, decent strikeouts, lot of quality starts, great ERA - basically all the numbers that win this award. Thoughts ?
 

burstnbloom

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 12, 2005
2,761
He has as good a chance as anyone. He is 1/100th of a run behind Kluber in ERA, better than him in WAR (I know!) and he's pitched 8 innings more. I could see the BBWAA voting for Britton but I think this is Porcello's race to lose.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
54,084
His WHIP climbed from .99 to 1.01 last night. Boo.
 

Devizier

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 3, 2000
19,584
Somewhere
I think it will be Sale, given that he has not won one yet and has a history of excellence.

Also, I think there will be some "vote splitting" -- the Red Sox have two guys up for the MVP (Betts and possibly Ortiz) and sportswriters might be predisposed not to put a single team in position to sweep the awards.
 

Savin Hillbilly

loves the secret sauce
SoSH Member
Jul 10, 2007
18,783
The wrong side of the bridge....
I think the only way Porcello doesn't get it is if the voters turn their noses up at his low-ish K rate but don't give him compensating props for the ultra-low BB rate. Otherwise, Kluber, Verlander, Sale and Porcello are all within fairly trivial distances of each other on most of the rate stats, and have all pitched about the same number of innings. It's close enough on the merits that I suspect writers will be looking for tiebreakers. 22 wins is one. And while the Cy isn't an MVP, I think Porcello's string of gems down the stretch could be another. A third would be the fact that Porcello is the only AL East pitcher in the group, and was thus pitching against tougher competition in tougher parks a lot of the time.

It's a hell of a close horse race, but I think Porcello has to be the front-runner.
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
30,611
I think it will be Sale, given that he has not won one yet and has a history of excellence.

Also, I think there will be some "vote splitting" -- the Red Sox have two guys up for the MVP (Betts and possibly Ortiz) and sportswriters might be predisposed not to put a single team in position to sweep the awards.

As far as splitting goes, I think that the voters are divided. That is, a guy who votes for Cy Young isnt also voting for MVP or ROY. My "source" was a comment from Abraham during a pre-game show. When asked about one of the awards, he said, "I don't have that one this year."
 

Ale Xander

Hamilton
SoSH Member
Oct 31, 2013
73,224
Britton deserves it. Has been dominant entire year. 4 ER all year. On a contending team

The SPs not being able to break the 3.00 barrier may help him get it. Arguably he had a better year than Hernandez and Eck when they won.
 

burstnbloom

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 12, 2005
2,761
I disagree with Britton. He's only pitched 65 innings and by rate stats, he's actually been worse than last year in every category he can really control, though he was great last year as well. He has been exceptionally lucky this year with his HR/FB, BABIP and his LOB%. I don't know if Cy Young voters would even look at that, but I think we can objectively take a look and say "hey, great year but also very very lucky."
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
20,900
Maine
I disagree with Britton. He's only pitched 65 innings and by rate stats, he's actually been worse than last year in every category he can really control, though he was great last year as well. He has been exceptionally lucky this year with his HR/FB, BABIP and his LOB%. I don't know if Cy Young voters would even look at that, but I think we can objectively take a look and say "hey, great year but also very very lucky."
I think this was brought up in another thread discussing the CY race, but Britton has also seemed to face a disproportionate number of bottom of the order hitters this year. The spot in the order he's faced the least, in order, is the #2, #3, #9, and #1. Some of that is obviously luck of the draw in who comes up in the 9th, but the fact is that he's made a lot of hay picking on the weaker parts of a lot of lineups. That's a luxury that starters don't get.
 

Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat

has big, douchey shoulders
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
I think this was brought up in another thread discussing the CY race, but Britton has also seemed to face a disproportionate number of bottom of the order hitters this year. The spot in the order he's faced the least, in order, is the #2, #3, #9, and #1. Some of that is obviously luck of the draw in who comes up in the 9th, but the fact is that he's made a lot of hay picking on the weaker parts of a lot of lineups. That's a luxury that starters don't get.
I do genuinely wonder what percentage of the CY voters dive that deeply into the stats.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,705
Leading candidates:

Porcello: 223.0 ip, 22-4, 3.15 era, 1.01 whip, 189 k, 5.1 war
Kluber: 215.0 ip, 18-9, 3.14 era, 1.06 whip, 227 k, 6.5 war
Verlander: 220.2 ip, 16-8, 3.10 era, 1.00 whip, 246 k, 6.3 war
Happ: 188.2 ip, 20-4, 3.20 era, 1.16 whip, 162 k, 4.2 war
Sale: 221.2 ip, 17-9, 3.21 era, 1.03 whip, 227 k, 5.2 war
Hamels: 200.2 ip, 15-5, 3.32 era, 1.31 whip, 200 k, 5.0 war
Britton: 65.1 ip, 2-1, 0.55 era, 0.83 whip, 71 k, 4.2 war

It's amazing that Britton's war is only 0.9 less than Porcello's, despite pitching 157.2 fewer innings.

It's a very interesting race. Hope the Sox can bludgeon Happ today to knock him out of the race. I don't see why Sale should be considered above Porcello. His era is worse than Porcello's, his record is much worse, his whip is worse, he's not pitching in high pressure, high leverage games, and his war is just 0.1 better - not enough to overcome everything else. The K advantage is significant, but really, when all is said and done, if you get guys out, you get them out, period.
 

geoduck no quahog

not particularly consistent
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Nov 8, 2002
13,024
Seattle, WA
Don't understand how strikeouts contribute so much to WAR. Seems odd to me.

Looking at the +WAR over Porcello choices: Kluber, Verlander, Sale

Innings Pitched: (1) Porcello, (2) Sale, (3) Verlander, (4) Kluber
Record: (1) Porcello, (2) Kluber, (3) Sale, (4) Verlander
ERA: (1) Verlander, (2) Kluber, (3) Porcello, (4) Sale
WHIP: (1) Verlander, (2) Porcello, (3) Sale, (4) Kluber
Strikeouts : (1) Verlander, (2) Kluber / Sale, (4) Porcello

WAR: (1) Kluber, (2) Verlander, (3) Sale, (4) Porcello

Forget Innings Pitched (too close) and ERA (situation dependent). WHIP is a good indicator of strength, as are Strikeouts (particularly in high-innings pitched candidates). Losing only 4 times with those peripherals is still better than losing 8 or 9 times.

So, WAR rates Kluber over the others. Why?
 
Last edited:

uncannymanny

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 12, 2007
9,098
I think this was brought up in another thread discussing the CY race, but Britton has also seemed to face a disproportionate number of bottom of the order hitters this year. The spot in the order he's faced the least, in order, is the #2, #3, #9, and #1. Some of that is obviously luck of the draw in who comes up in the 9th, but the fact is that he's made a lot of hay picking on the weaker parts of a lot of lineups. That's a luxury that starters don't get.
If you look at how he's actually fared against the lineup spots, this probably isn't the argument you want to make. The 8th spot in the order has been the only one with an OPSA > .500. The 7/9 spots have equivalent OPSA to the 3/4 spots. Granted, that's not a deep dive into the numbers by any means, but he's been great against everyone.

It still has to be Porcello because of the innings. He had a wall to wall strong season.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
24,494
Miami (oh, Miami!)
When are the Cy votes actually cast? Even though it's a regular season award, would a sterling post season by one of the contenders swing votes?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
20,900
Maine
Pretty sure all the voting is due tomorrow.
Ballots are due before the first playoff game (so Tuesday) because they specifically are not supposed to include or be influenced by post-season performance. It's an important distinction with the possibility of make up games and/or Game 163s that can take place after the final scheduled day of the regular season.
 

PTC

New Member
Nov 10, 2006
28
Porcello's year sorta reminds me a lot of Beckett's 2007. There was a history of success (though Becketts history was superior), then a first year shitshow, and finally one heck of a bounce-back. Cherry picking stats, but the ERA+ for each man is the exact same @ 145. Beckett was 2nd in the Cy Young to the Fat Boy. Here's hoping Rick doesn't suffer the same "fate".
 

Apisith

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 19, 2007
3,217
Bangkok
Wow, Verlander really snuck up on the race. I have him as the winner in my book. Most Ks, on par innings wise, best ERA and lowest WHIP.
 

Savin Hillbilly

loves the secret sauce
SoSH Member
Jul 10, 2007
18,783
The wrong side of the bridge....
Leading candidates:

Porcello: 223.0 ip, 22-4, 3.15 era, 1.01 whip, 189 k, 5.1 war
Kluber: 215.0 ip, 18-9, 3.14 era, 1.06 whip, 227 k, 6.5 war
Verlander: 220.2 ip, 16-8, 3.10 era, 1.00 whip, 246 k, 6.3 war
Happ: 188.2 ip, 20-4, 3.20 era, 1.16 whip, 162 k, 4.2 war
Sale: 221.2 ip, 17-9, 3.21 era, 1.03 whip, 227 k, 5.2 war
Hamels: 200.2 ip, 15-5, 3.32 era, 1.31 whip, 200 k, 5.0 war
Britton: 65.1 ip, 2-1, 0.55 era, 0.83 whip, 71 k, 4.2 war

It's amazing that Britton's war is only 0.9 less than Porcello's, despite pitching 157.2 fewer innings.
That's BBref's WAR you're using. I think they use RA where Fangraphs uses FIP. FG has Sales, Porcello, and Kluber all within 0.2 of each other at the top of the league with 5.3, 5.2, and 5.1 respectively, with Britton far behind at 2.3. Which is pretty good testimony to the limits of WAR, especially when you're looking at just one version. If one system is saying the difference between two pitchers is one win, while another is saying it's three wins, then either one of them is wildly wrong or neither of them is very accurate.
 

Clutch Narrative

New Member
Oct 2, 2016
2
It's amazing that Britton's war is only 0.9 less than Porcello's, despite pitching 157.2 fewer innings.
rWAR heavily rewards relief pitchers for leverage.

I don't see why Sale should be considered above Porcello. His era is worse than Porcello's, his record is much worse, his whip is worse, he's not pitching in high pressure, high leverage games, and his war is just 0.1 better - not enough to overcome everything else.
FIP- is park adjusted and isolates individual pitcher performance from team run prevention. Sale put up a 77 this season, vs. Porcello's 81, so that's a pretty clear difference. Porcello did make up for the deficit by inducing infield flies at a higher rate, which is why they have nearly identical fWAR.

I The K advantage is significant, but really, when all is said and done, if you get guys out, you get them out, period.
A big difference is that for strikeouts the "you" is singular, and for outs on balls in play the "you" is plural.
 

nvalvo

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
21,679
Rogers Park
A big difference is that for strikeouts the "you" is singular, and for outs on balls in play the "you" is plural.
That's a very elegant way of putting that, which made me rethink some assumptions: how does this square with what we've been all learning about the effect of catcher defense on called strikes?

What if Voros McCracken is wrong, and the "you" is plural on both? Do we need to revise FIP, or develop a new cFIP that includes an adjustment for battery-mates' framing performance?
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,705
That's a very elegant way of putting that, which made me rethink some assumptions: how does this square with what we've been all learning about the effect of catcher defense on called strikes?

What if Voros McCracken is wrong, and the "you" is plural on both? Do we need to revise FIP, or develop a new cFIP that includes an adjustment for battery-mates' framing performance?
To add to this point, how do you factor in ballpark for strikeouts? Crazy thought, one might ask? Well how many foul pops are outs in Oakland that are out of play in Boston, which ultimately turn into strikeouts? I know in this case it probably wouldn't help Porcello's argument because he benefits from this advantage, but if we want to seriously look at these things, this has to be taken into consideration, right?
 

Savin Hillbilly

loves the secret sauce
SoSH Member
Jul 10, 2007
18,783
The wrong side of the bridge....
To add to this point, how do you factor in ballpark for strikeouts? Crazy thought, one might ask? Well how many foul pops are outs in Oakland that are out of play in Boston, which ultimately turn into strikeouts? I know in this case it probably wouldn't help Porcello's argument because he benefits from this advantage, but if we want to seriously look at these things, this has to be taken into consideration, right?
It would be interesting to go through the gamelogs and see, but I would be very surprised if this is a significant factor. How often is a foul fly caught in Oakland that wouldn't be at Fenway? Every other game, maybe? That sounds like an overestimate to me, but let's go with it. So 40 times a year a PA at Fenway is extended relative to Oakland. Figuring a 33% K rate for those PAs (higher than average because the count by definition now has an additional strike about two-thirds of the time), that's 13 additional Ks per year--for the whole Boston staff. Maybe 2 per year for each starting pitcher. And that's presumably the biggest difference in the league.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,705
It would be interesting to go through the gamelogs and see, but I would be very surprised if this is a significant factor. How often is a foul fly caught in Oakland that wouldn't be at Fenway? Every other game, maybe? That sounds like an overestimate to me, but let's go with it. So 40 times a year a PA at Fenway is extended relative to Oakland. Figuring a 33% K rate for those PAs (higher than average because the count by definition now has an additional strike about two-thirds of the time), that's 13 additional Ks per year--for the whole Boston staff. Maybe 2 per year for each starting pitcher. And that's presumably the biggest difference in the league.
I think you're probably pretty close on this. I suppose the same could be said for hitters too though. How many times does a hitter hit a foul ball out of play in Fenway that would have been caught in Oakland, and that at-bat turns into a hit? I think that ops+ and such factor in ballpark effects. I suppose era+ does as well?
 

SumnerH

Malt Liquor Picker
Dope
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
32,013
Alexandria, VA
To add to this point, how do you factor in ballpark for strikeouts? Crazy thought, one might ask? Well how many foul pops are outs in Oakland that are out of play in Boston, which ultimately turn into strikeouts? I know in this case it probably wouldn't help Porcello's argument because he benefits from this advantage, but if we want to seriously look at these things, this has to be taken into consideration, right?
There are definitely statistically significant park factors for BBs and Ks. http://www.hardballtimes.com/batted-balls-and-park-effects/ looks at it and examines it through the lens of park BABIP%, which is closely related to what you're getting at with small foul territory, etc.

(Fun quote: " the Green Monster results in 53 percent more doubles per outfield fly than in the average park").