The Bill Simmons Thread

Jon Stewart was so routinely good on his early shows his presence as a replacement for any one of the Old Guard late night guys was turned into a gag on Larry Sanders due to its ubiquity in "the trades."

I dont even like Stewart personally but Bill Simmons and Jon Stewart are not on the same planet in this context.

WayBackVazquez said:

What two shows were those? His MTV show was great. He was also 31 when he started as a talk show host, and a longtime performer. Simmons is an awkward 47 year-old man.

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John Marzano Olympic Hero said:

Jon Stewart was a comedian who spent hours and hours and hours mastering the ability to speak in front of audience and keep them interested. Bill Simmons is a writer who really, really likes "The Larry Sanders Show". Not many people can host a talk show, so the deck was stacked against Simmons from the beginning. But trying to say that Jon Stewart sucked and he got good and apply to Simmons is like comparing Teen Wolf with Teen Wolf 2.

BTW, Jon Stewart was not "pretty bad" on his first two shows. I assume you're talking about the Jon Stewart Show on MTV. Such a hit that it was moved from MTV to syndication after like six months (which is unheard of). Unfortunately it never found an audience and it's widely accepted that it had nothing to do with Stewart's talent (or lack thereof). In the mid to late 90s, Stewart was presumed to be the heir to just about every late night talk show under the sun.

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And he was phenomenal on the Larry Sanders show. I was always a big fan. I also thought at the time he wasn't a very good interviewer (very self-conscious, fidgety, fanboyish). Your mileage may vary, or maybe my memory is getting predictably shitty after decades of physical and psychological abuse.

PS: Outstanding work on the Teen Wolf bit, JMOH

Kliq said:

This is a ridiculous post. He wasn't VERY insistent on it not being a big deal, he was just asking if it was relevant outside of LA, which it is. It was a harmless question.

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You are absolutely wrong. I'm not going to transcribe the podcast. If you listened to that and took from it anything other than that Simmons insisted that Scully's retirement was not a big deal outside of LA, I honestly don't know what to say.

nattysez said:

You are absolutely wrong. I'm not going to transcribe the podcast. If you listened to that and took from it anything other than that Simmons insisted that Scully's retirement was not a big deal outside of LA, I honestly don't know what to say.

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Simmons was questioning if it was a big deal because it must be getting huge coverage in LA. Your comments about this are very very weird.

Kliq said:

He wasn't VERY insistent on it not being a big deal, he was just asking if it was relevant outside of LA, which it is. It was a harmless question.

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I listened to the podcast on the way from the office today. This is exactly how I heard it as well. He questioned how big a deal outside of LA it was.

Kliq said:

This is a ridiculous post. He wasn't VERY insistent on it not being a big deal, he was just asking if it was relevant outside of LA, which it is. It was a harmless question.

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He said "In Boston, they don't care." Then he said he doesn't think they care in New York. Then he tried and failed to goad Sal into saying nobody cares. "So you don't think this Vin Scully thing was out of whack at all?" When Sal said no, he was upset because it was the most safe he'd ever played anything.

But is he wrong? I sure as shit don't care about Scully but that seems to be part generational and part geographical. I hear about how great Scully is but outside of anecdotes I have zero connection to him and I can't ever say that I've heard him call a game.

kenneycb said:

But is he wrong? I sure as shit don't care about Scully but that seems to be part generational and part geographical. I hear about how great Scully is but outside of anecdotes I have zero connection to him and I can't ever say that I've heard him call a game.

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Well he was the #1 national TV play-by-play guy for CBS and then NBC through 1990. Then he was CBS radio's #1 guy through 1997. So if you never saw a World Series game before 1990, never listened to a World Series game before 1998, never even watched a replay of the Mookie-Buckner play, don't care about baseball history or any broadcaster who hasnt goofed around with Remy and Wally, then no, he doesn't matter.

You can throw in things like the Montana to Clark catch in the 1981 NFCCG for good measure.

I was born in 1988 so I have not seen or really remember any of those dates you mention since I was 10 or younger and, while I care about baseball history, I just don't have the same connection with a PBP guy than I do with a player that I actively followed in my formative years. Hence the geberational comment above, which I was hoping would elicit more than a dick response.

WayBackVazquez said:

Well he was the #1 national TV play-by-play guy for CBS and then NBC through 1990. Then he was CBS radio's #1 guy through 1997. So if you never saw a World Series game before 1990, never listened to a World Series game before 1998, never even watched a replay of the Mookie-Buckner play, don't care about baseball history or any broadcaster who hasnt goofed around with Remy and Wally, then no, he doesn't matter.

You can throw in things like the Montana to Clark catch in the 1981 NFCCG for good measure.

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Well, you're already pegging the audience at roughly 40+. Most folks watch, don't listen, to the world series. I'm 39, and I remember 86, but he doesn't really factor into it.

I get that he's a big deal. I intellectually know it. And I'm constitutionally geared towards romanticism, so I intellectually know that he's a big deal and that hearing him is the way I should be hearing a game. But in reality, I've probably heard him call two or three games.

So while I instinctively feel like this is a really big deal, it's actual affect on my day to day is pretty nil. And that's coming from as 40ish, overly romantic, buying-old-baseball-readreaders-on-ebay viewpoint. I'm willing to bet that most people in Boston don't really know who Scully is, or if they they think he retired years ago.

I think BSG is shit (and 25 year old me is recoiling, in the same way that he would be for my current opinion of Dane Cook). But I don't think it's controversial at all to question what this means to other cities. I think it's a ripple in a pond to the average person.

Okay. But Simmons is 47. And most baseball fans are over 40, too (the median age of an MLB viewer is 53). Pretty much anytime someone old--whether it's in sports or entertainment--retires or dies, young people aren't going to give a shit. Do you think the snapchat generation was broken up about David Bowie? It doesn't mean his dying wasn't a big deal.

The only thing about Scully's retirement that I find perplexing is why Dick Enberg, who is also retiring after a long career, isn't getting a fraction of the attention that Scully is. Scully obviously beats Enberg in length of tenure, but Enberg has been part of more big moments nationally since he was the lead PBP guy for NBC for years, during which time he called eight Super Bowls, the last one being SB XXXII between the Packers and the Broncos, which was one of the best, and six Final Fours.

I love Vin, but Dick Enberg's voice is attached to more sports memories from my youth than Scully's is.

The thing about Vin, at least for me, is that no one can do what he does. He carries a 3+ hour conversation with his audience by himself, and every one of them feels like he is actually talking to them. I can't tell you how many basically meaningless games I have listened to just because of this dynamic. I would listen to him talk about pretty much anything.

Remagellan said:

The only thing about Scully's retirement that I find perplexing is why Dick Enberg, who is also retiring after a long career, isn't getting a fraction of the attention that Scully is. Scully obviously beats Enberg in length of tenure, but Enberg has been part of more big moments nationally since he was the lead PBP guy for NBC for years, during which time he called eight Super Bowls, the last one being SB XXXII between the Packers and the Broncos, which was one of the best, and six Final Fours.

I love Vin, but Dick Enberg's voice is attached to more sports memories from my youth than Scully's is.

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I think the difference is most people don't necessarily associate Enberg with baseball as much as with football or even tennis. He's only been on the call for the Padres for eight years. Prior to that, it had been close to 30 years since he'd been part of a local broadcast team (Angels).

Meanwhile, Scully has been the primary play-by-play guy for one team for over 60 years even while he was a national voice as well. I think the element of being an icon for a single franchise for so long is a big factor in the extra attention Scully is getting. His national work is almost secondary, whereas for Enberg, it's his primary achievement.

Remagellan said:

The only thing about Scully's retirement that I find perplexing is why Dick Enberg, who is also retiring after a long career, isn't getting a fraction of the attention that Scully is. Scully obviously beats Enberg in length of tenure, but Enberg has been part of more big moments nationally since he was the lead PBP guy for NBC for years, during which time he called eight Super Bowls, the last one being SB XXXII between the Packers and the Broncos, which was one of the best, and six Final Fours.

I love Vin, but Dick Enberg's voice is attached to more sports memories from my youth than Scully's is.

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Scully has chunks of Enberg in his stool. Come on, this is like comparing Pedro and Josh Beckett. Yeah, Josh had his moments, but Pedro was historic. When you were listening to Scully, you knew you were listening to history.

Red(s)HawksFan said:

I think the difference is most people don't necessarily associate Enberg with baseball as much as with football or even tennis. He's only been on the call for the Padres for eight years. Prior to that, it had been close to 30 years since he'd been part of a local broadcast team (Angels).

Meanwhile, Scully has been the primary play-by-play guy for one team for over 60 years even while he was a national voice as well. I think the element of being an icon for a single franchise for so long is a big factor in the extra attention Scully is getting. His national work is almost secondary, whereas for Enberg, it's his primary achievement.

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And its also the particular franchise. Going back to Brooklyn in 1950 is an opportunity to open a door to history in a way that doesn't come along very often.

If you're a serious baseball fan under 40 or 45, Scully's retirement doesn't have to move you to tears. But I think such a fan would understand why its a big deal and maybe spend a few minutes looking through that door that his retirement opens.

I understand and know what he means to the game, but I just don't really care that much. Announcers are much more personal IMO. I have much more of a connection to Enberg via tennis than I do Scully, which is pretty much all anecdotal. Same with Verne Lundquist.

johnmd20 said:

Scully has chunks of Enberg in his stool. Come on, this is like comparing Pedro and Josh Beckett. Yeah, Josh had his moments, but Pedro was historic. When you were listening to Scully, you knew you were listening to history.

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Sorry, but no. Enberg is a broadcasting legend and no Beckett, he is Walter Johnson. His best broadcast comp would be Curt Gowdy (or Pat Summerall) who flourished at multiple sports. 25 years of network television on NBC and their lead NFL guy doing 8 Super Bowls, NBA, golf, tennis all as their number one.
After winning the Frick award in 2015 Enberg is actually associated with THREE team sports Hall of Fames: NBA, NFL and MLB. That is legend status. Here's a brief list of his accolades:

A nearly 50-year broadcasting career has earned Enberg many accolades, including 14 Emmy awards, 9 Sportscaster of the Year awards, the Ronald Reagan Media Award and the Victor Award, recognizing the top sportscaster of the past 40 years. Enberg holds the distinction of being the only person to win National Emmy awards as a sportscaster, a writer and a producer, and in 2000, he received the prestigious Lifetime Achievement Emmy award. He is just the fourth sportscaster to be honored with a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. Enberg has been inducted into the National Sports Broadcasting Hall of Fame and the National Sportscaster and Sportswriters Hall of Fame, as well as honored in the Pro Football Hall of Fame (Rozelle Award), the National Basketball Hall of Fame (Gowdy Award) and the Rose Bowl Hall of Fame.

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Plus, Happy Gilmore.

Enberg's only knock is that he doesn't have a signature moment like Michaels has. Otherwise, he's done it all.

ifmanis5 said:

Enberg's only knock is that he doesn't have a signature moment like Michaels has. Otherwise, he's done it all.

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Oh, my.

ConigliarosPotential said:

Oh, my.

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Yes, he has something of a famous catch phrase that he has used a lot but, as Dick has said himself in several interviews, he never did a Miracle Game. Few have.

Yeah, I know - I wasn't intending to contest your point as such. What would Enberg's best game be, I wonder? First game that came to mind for me was Super Bowl XXIII (Montana to Taylor to beat the Bengals).

maufman said:

Brent Musberger has done it all too. Are we going to fawn over him too when he finally retires? Obviously not.

Enberg doesn't suck out loud like Musberger does, but he's closer to that end of the spectrum than he is to Scully's end. If you rate him as better than a replacement-level national broadcaster, I'll bet you're in the minority.

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Brent has a great career portfolio and even his is short of Dick Enberg's.
The only people in the biz currently who are on Enberg's accomplishment level would be Michaels, Costas and in a few years Nantz and Buck. A case could be made for Ernie Johnson but he is not quite there. All are number one face-of-the-network types for long periods of time. Marv should be mentioned for his diversity and longevity but he wasn't a network number one in the way the others are or were.
As far as fawning goes, you can run all the career rollouts you want but it's generally up to the audience to fawn or not.

Bunt4aTriple said:

Plus, Happy Gilmore.

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That was Verne Lundquist who is also retiring this year.

ifmanis5 said:

As far as fawning goes, you can run all the career rollouts you want but it's generally up to the audience to fawn or not.

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Agreed. It's interesting the fawning is happening for Scully and not for Enberg. I wonder why.

johnmd20 said:

Agreed. It's interesting the fawning is happening for Scully and not for Enberg. I wonder why.

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Scully is the greatest baseball announcer ever but he's essentially a hometown guy (yes, he anchored national with NBC but not for as long as his Dodger duties) so it's easy for the Dodger fanbase to embrace his goodbye in a more emotional way. When a guy like Costas retires he doesn't really have a hometown fanbase to gush for him (maybe St. Louis kind of sort of but not really) the way a local crowd would for Scully or Harry Carey or Johnny Most etc. It's a lot easier to fawn for your guy than it is for a national one. But no doubt, Scully is a one of kind- unmatched longevity and quality in his business and that is being acknowledged nationally, too.

This is driving me nuts - which sportscaster or media guy has the park on the outbound side of Storrow dedicated to his son?

Marciano490 said:

This is driving me nuts - which sportscaster or media guy has the park on the outbound side of Storrow dedicated to his son?

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Do you mean this: http://www.mass.gov/eea/agencies/dcr/massparks/region-boston/teddy-ebersols-red-sox-fields.html

The late son of former NBC Sports exec Dick Ebersol.

Yes. Thanks.

maufman said:

Brent Musberger has done it all too. Are we going to fawn over him too when he finally retires? Obviously not.

Enberg doesn't suck out loud like Musberger does, but he's closer to that end of the spectrum than he is to Scully's end. If you rate him as better than a replacement-level national broadcaster, I'll bet you're in the minority.

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Whoa...what? Enberg was always very, very solid and capable without being showy or sanctimonious or otherwise trying to make himself the story. Given the choice between Nantz, Buck, Musburger and Enberg for a big football game, I'd almost certainly pick Enberg. And I like Nantz and Buck more than most here probably do. Maybe you're defining "replacement-level national broadcaster" differently to how I'd define it? (I'd pick Michaels and Summerall over Enberg at their peak, FWIW, but that's more praise for the former than criticism of the latter.)

I'll bet most who know and remember Enberg have no clue he even went to San Diego. Leaving the NFL was ostensibly his retirement.

ConigliarosPotential said:

Whoa...what? Enberg was always very, very solid and capable without being showy or sanctimonious or otherwise trying to make himself the story. Given the choice between Nantz, Buck, Musburger and Enberg for a big football game, I'd almost certainly pick Enberg. And I like Nantz and Buck more than most here probably do. Maybe you're defining "replacement-level national broadcaster" differently to how I'd define it? (I'd pick Michaels and Summerall over Enberg at their peak, FWIW, but that's more praise for the former than criticism of the latter.)

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Yes. As a kid growing up, Dick Enberg/Merlin Olson was my favorite broadcasting team (followed by Madden/Summerall and Michaels/Gifford).

My first exposure to Enberg was as host of the syndicated "Sports Challenge," which, disappointingly for pre-teen me, frequently exposed pro athletes as knowing less than I did about sports trivia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_Challenge

He also did p-b-p between Billy Packer and Al McGuire, which was a pretty good 3-in-the-booth back in the day.

He is great and deserving of whatever the top broadcasting honors are, but, IMO, lacks the historical significance of Scully.

Straight up, Enberg's name was vaguely familiar to me, an annoying millennial. I don't think he has the nearly the same national cachet as Scully but maybe that is just me.

Enberg on tennis broadcasts, preferably with McEnroe and Bud Collins at Wimbledon, calling an Agassi match, is how I'll remember him best.

Sports Challenge and TWIB were the post-cartoon watching Saturday morning power-hour leading into the NBC Game of the Week.

Both Scully and Enberg were great and I don't see the need to split hairs to declare a winner.

In 2012, 2014, and 2015 access to Scully and Enberg on MLB Extra Innings at least made it seem as if EI wasn't a complete waste of money. It was also very therapeutic after watching the dumpster fire that was Red Sox baseball during those three seasons.

The enjoyment of watching Scully was the uniqueness of the production (flying solo) and how great he was at it. Next season, the Dodgers will have 162-games on TV that look just like all the rest.

The amazing thing about Enberg is that he managed to combine so many prime professional opportunities into one career. His body of work is deep enough to power at least six amazing sports media careers.

Also, I usually enjoyed Enberg's video essays and his final one at the end was outstanding. He did a great one on Tony Gwynn as well. I can't find those specifically, probably because of usage rights issues for the video within each piece, but here's a link to some of the tributes to Enberg via FOX Sports SD.

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/204598956/dick-enberg-says-farewell-after-last-broadcast/

Oh my, I wish you all a pleasant good afternoon!


P.S. I wondered why Vin did the 1981 NFC Championship Game instead of Pat and John. Turns out Pat did the radio call with Jack Buck, while John Madden was on his way to Detroit, I'm guessing by horse and buggy, to prepare for what would be their first Super Bowl together.
CBS just bumped their "B" TV team up (Vin and Hank Stram) to handle the game, while Summerall slid into the radio seat Stram would normally occupy with Buck.

Domer said:

That was Verne Lundquist who is also retiring this year.

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So dumb. Of course I knew that, but my memory replaced Verne.

Verne's signature call is from his radio days as the Voice of the Dallas Cowboys...


Verne reflects on it...

Verne also called Nicklaus' putt on 17 at the 1986 Masters, Tiger chipping in on 16 at the Masters in 2005, and the Auburn Kick Six a few years ago. He's had some good ones.

coremiller said:

Verne also called Nicklaus' putt on 17 at the 1986 Masters, Tiger chipping in on 16 at the Masters in 2005, and the Auburn Kick Six a few years ago. He's had some good ones.

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YES SIR!!!!!!

I fucking love Verne Lundquist. Not making any argument as to his fame relative to Enberg and Scully, both of whom I also love, but... Verne is the man.

Verne is enjoying his SEC victory tour and he's genuinely earned every moment.

Verne is terrific. No bias, no BS, well prepared, actually loves sports and it shows. Hard to ask for more than that. The Yes Sir call is iconic.

Just caught Doug Baldwin's appearance on Simmons's show. I was really impressed with how thoughtful and intelligent he was. Simmons continues to get pretty good guests (always enjoy a M. Rappaport segment, in limited doses). Unfortunately, Simmons remains the weak link of the show.

edit: spelling

Bleedred said:

Just caught Doug Baldwin's appearance on Simmons's show. I was really impressed with how thoughtful and intelligent he was. Simmons continues to get pretty good guests (always enjoy a M. Rappaport segment, in limited doses). Unfortunately, Simmons remains the week link of the show.

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Came here to say the same thing. Baldwin and Rappaport were good guests. The homer Boston comments are getting old.

I saw the first half of the last episode. He seemed a lot more relaxed and had better rapport with the guests than the first few episodes I watched. He was so stiff in those. Of course starting off with his bestie Rappaport probably helped. I'm still not all that amused by or interested in the show though.

Kliq said:

This is a ridiculous post. He wasn't VERY insistent on it not being a big deal, he was just asking if it was relevant outside of LA, which it is. It was a harmless question.

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He's the 'Boston Sport Guy' ... wouldn't he have an opinion?