That was then: Celebrating what was

Ed Hillel

Ed Hillel

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Richard Seymour is criminally underrated. I think he was the second best player on that early Pats dynasty behind Brady, and I'd say he was with the Pats long enough to make the top 10, probably somewhere in the 4-6 position. Seymour was a Hall of Fame player, unlike Bruschi, and a slightly better player than Law. I'd take Seymour as a player over Wilfork any day, and I really love me some Wilfork.
 
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EL Jeffe

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The last two Patriots kickers have been pretty remarkable. I can see Vinatieri making the list.
 
PedroKsBambino

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Pretty sure Pats fans will give zero shits about that. Does anyone doubt that Brady would a) rather be in Foxboro and b) will be in top shape and ready when he can play?

I guess the radio talk guys might try to make it a thing, but I doubt many actual fans will feel anything but sorrow that we were deprived of 4 games of TB12 thanks to that a-hole RG
 
lexrageorge

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He's following Goodell's instructions to the letter of the law. If he didn't, he'd likely be banned from the game forever. So, no, I'm not upset he's getting some sun in the face of the paparazzi.
 
locknload

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Isnt jetting off to Europe and get photographed there the smartest thing he could be doing right now? The way this thing has gone if he had hung around New England of Foxboro at TB12 Sports Therapy there would be all sorts of rumors of how he was in Foxboro secretly working with the team, or getting passed playbooks or all sorts of other bullshit. Hell people here were talking about how they were sure he would find some way to be in contact with the team. He gets some sun with his wife in Europe and make sure those rumors don't even start.
 
tims4wins

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For those curious, the top 10 list was:
10. Vinatieri
9. Stanley Morgan
8. Steve Nelson
7. Troy Brown
6. Ty Law
5. Mike Haynes
4. Andre Tippett
3. Rob Gronkowski
2. John Hannah
1. TB12

I don't think Nelson belongs on this list, and probably Haynes as well since only half his career was in NE. I would personally replace them with Bruschi and Bledsoe, I think.
 
mwonow

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I'd exclude Haynes as well for the half-career thing, and Bledsoe most certainly belongs. Steve Nelson was a force for a long time, but how do you leave Tedy off? Or Willie McGinest?

I'd move Troy Brown up, maybe as high as #4 - he did absolutely everything, and well, and in the clutch.
 
RIFan

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mwonow said:
I'd exclude Haynes as well for the half-career thing, and Bledsoe most certainly belongs. Steve Nelson was a force for a long time, but how do you leave Tedy off? Or Willie McGinest?

I'd move Troy Brown up, maybe as high as #4 - he did absolutely everything, and well, and in the clutch.
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I'd exclude Haynes as well or at least move him back. I don't know how Bledsoe gets left off other than they wanted to spread it around positionally and have a ST player on the list. For the great moments Vinateri had, he was still just the kicker, especially since Gostkowski has been a better kicker over the same number of seasons with the team. I know this is alternate history revisionism, but if Brady did not go on to become "Brady" and they make this list, Bledsoe is top 5 easily. The fact that Brady is the GOAT shouldn't diminish what Bledsoe did as a member of the franchise.
 
dynomite

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RIFan said:
I'd exclude Haynes as well or at least move him back. I don't know how Bledsoe gets left off other than they wanted to spread it around positionally and have a ST player on the list. For the great moments Vinateri had, he was still just the kicker, especially since Gostkowski has been a better kicker over the same number of seasons with the team. I know this is alternate history revisionism, but if Brady did not go on to become "Brady" and they make this list, Bledsoe is top 5 easily. The fact that Brady is the GOAT shouldn't diminish what Bledsoe did as a member of the franchise.
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I'm okay with Vinatieri on the list. He's going to be the either the 2nd or 3rd pure kicker inducted into the Hall of Fame, and is the only person in NFL history to kick 2 Super Bowl winning field goals (let alone the Snow Bowl kick to send it into OT, which is arguably the most impressive FG in league history).

Agreed that Bledsoe's omission is stunning. Haynes is considered among the best cornerbacks in NFL history, so he's no slouch, but I agree that it's a strange choice for someone best known as a Raider by most fans.
 
Dahabenzapple2

Dahabenzapple2

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dynomite said:
I'm okay with Vinatieri on the list. He's going to be the either the 2nd or 3rd pure kicker inducted into the Hall of Fame, and is the only person in NFL history to kick 2 Super Bowl winning field goals (let alone the Snow Bowl kick to send it into OT, which is arguably the most impressive FG in league history).

Agreed that Bledsoe's omission is stunning. Haynes is considered among the best cornerbacks in NFL history, so he's no slouch, but I agree that it's a strange choice for someone best known as a Raider by most fans.
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Plus Bruce Armstrong should be on the list ahead of someone - I think Vinatieri
 
mauf

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Deathofthebambino said:
For me, the top 10 (well, 11, can't get rid of any of these guys) list looks like this, not necessarily in order:

Brady
Hannah
Tippett
Wilfork
Ty Law
Bledsoe
Bruschi
McGinest
Vinatieri: Greatest kicker, and clutch kicker of all time. Three game winning Super Bowl kicks? Yeah, he's on.
Gronk: Like someone else said, he is in the HOF if his career ends right now.
Brown
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Great list. I'd replace Vinateri with Armstrong, and if I had to limit it to 10, I'd drop Gronk. But really, after the top 3 (which is clearly those 3 guys, in that order), there isn't a ton of separation between 4th and 12th.
 
Bergs

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I think they should have just done it as top 11, since TB12 was such a lock. Bruce Armstrong stands out to me as a big omission.
 
fiskful of dollars

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Armstrong should certainly be in. Hated to see him out of the top 10. Great show, though. I loved Mike Haynes when I was a kid. My best friend was a Raiders fan and rode me mercilessly whenever 22 made a play for the Silver/Black.
 
lexrageorge

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I'd put Armstrong in over Haynes, but I can understand that it's hard to keep an HoF player off the list. I'd still keep Vinatieri; just to annoy the people that hate placekickers and punters makes it worth it. Bledsoe should find his way on there, but that leaves someone out. Randomly ordered list of players that should round out the Top 20, beyond the two I just mentioned:

Bruschi
Seymour
McGinest
Clayborn
Sam Bam Cunningham
Russ Francis
Ben Coates
Vincent Brown
Julius Adams
Randy Moss
Wes Welker (Thanks Shane!!)
Eugene Chung
 
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ShaneTrot

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Why is Welker not getting any love? Brown had 557 rec, Welker 672 receptions. He was ridiculous with the Pats, he probably should be in the top 5.
 
mwonow

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lexrageorge said:
I'd put Armstrong in over Haynes, but I can understand that it's hard to keep an HoF player off the list. I'd still keep Vinatieri; just to annoy the people that hate placekickers and punters makes it worth it. Bledsoe should find his way on there, but that leaves someone out. Randomly ordered list of players that should round out the Top 20, beyond the two I just mentioned:

Bruschi
Seymour
McGinest
Clayborn
Sam Bam Cunningham
Russ Francis
Ben Coates
Vincent Brown
Julius Adams
Randy Moss
Eugene Chung
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Funny guy...

I was thinking about Coates, and sort of about the Undertaker, too. Both belong, I think, in the hall of really, really good rather than great Pats.

Moss was great, but too brief.

Everyone else on that list, hell yes, let's not stop at 10! And you could make a reasonable case for Jim Nance, too, though I'd be good with just adding the first 4-6 (plus maybe Julius) to the top 10 lists above...
 
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mwonow

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This was too great not to highlight. From today's press conference:

Q: What's the latest in a season that you've ever made significant changes to your defensive approach?

BB: Every week.

Two questions later...

Q: Do you ever look at your own personnel and think you've got to use them differently?

BB: We always do that...

And in the middle, an explanation:

Q: More specifically, have you ever made significant changes to the personnel used at later points in the season?

BB: Yeah. It depends on who you play, what the situation is. I mean in 1990 when I was with the Giants we played the Bears in the first postseason game. We played them in a 4-3 [defense]. The second game we played the 49ers in a 3-4. We played a post-safety coverage game against the Bears and played a split-safety coverage game against the 49ers, and then against Buffalo in the Super Bowl we played a 2-4 and a 3-3-nickel the entire game. Is that changing your defense? I mean, to me it was doing what we thought was best against the team we were playing. You can call it whatever you want to call it....
 
Marciano490

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Pretty amazing that most sites have Brady as the third most likely to win the MVP award after Zeke and Matty Ice. If EE his a rookie wall and the Falcons continue to come down to earth from their hot start, you have to figure it's Brady's to lose, which would be a hell of a redemption arc along with another Super Bowl victory.
 
dynomite

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Marciano490 said:
Pretty amazing that most sites have Brady as the third most likely to win the MVP award after Zeke and Matty Ice. If EE his a rookie wall and the Falcons continue to come down to earth from their hot start, you have to figure it's Brady's to lose, which would be a hell of a redemption arc along with another Super Bowl victory.
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I agree with this -- and I'm trying not to slip into the mindset that the season is only successful if the Patriots win the Super Bowl.

I'm struggling a bit with my Pats fandom these days, but I'm glad that Brady and Belichick and company are going to add another dominating season of 10+ wins to the resume and play January football again.
 
Ralphwiggum

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One more win to tie the Colts record for most consecutive 11 win seasons (7) and two more wins to tie the same team's record for most consecutive 12 win seasons.

14 straight 10 win seasons is two seasons shy of the 49ers all time record.
 
loshjott

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Ralphwiggum said:
One more win to tie the Colts record for most consecutive 11 win seasons (7) and two more wins to tie the same team's record for most consecutive 12 win seasons.

14 straight 10 win seasons is two seasons shy of the 49ers all time record.
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And this team won 3 Super Bowls BEFORE the 11 win season streak started. Mind boggling.
 
InstaFace

InstaFace

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Ralphwiggum said:
One more win to tie the Colts record for most consecutive 11 win seasons (7) and two more wins to tie the same team's record for most consecutive 12 win seasons.

14 straight 10 win seasons is two seasons shy of the 49ers all time record.
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Looking at their franchise page, I still find it hard to believe that Edgerrin James led the 2005 Colts in AV. And even harder to believe that Jim Caldwell coached them to the SB in 2009.
 
InstaFace

InstaFace

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ITP-worthy film and play-diagram breakdowns.

My opinion of Von Miller just went up. Assuming he wrote the thing, which it looks like he did, with minimal editing.
 
Stitch01

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I hope we are all soaking this in as this run at least approaches autumn. Game threads are game threads, but sometimes I wonder if we take this for granted.
 
mauf

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Stitch01 said:
I hope we are all soaking this in as this run at least approaches autumn. Game threads are game threads, but sometimes I wonder if we take this for granted.
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I hope so too. We're talking about one of the three best runs in the history of the game, alongside the Lombardi Packers and the Montana-Young 49ers.
 
ifmanis5

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Stitch01 said:
I hope we are all soaking this in as this run at least approaches autumn. Game threads are game threads, but sometimes I wonder if we take this for granted.
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As someone who remembers Pats life pre-BB and Brady, def not taken for granted. Incredible run.
 
Saints Rest

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8slim said:
Agreed. Too many 2 win seasons and total franchise dysfunction to not appreciate the hell out of this run.
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Which was the year that the last game of the season was "The Stupor Bowl" against a similarly one-win Baltimore Colts team with the loser winning the #1 pick. I can't remember if they won by losing or lost by winning. Was is the year that the Colts "won" Elway? Or was it the year the Pats "won" Kenneth Sims (or maybe Irving Fryar)?

EDIT UPDATE: It was 1981. Pats lost to Colts in final game to finish 2-14 and "win" Kenneth Sims.
 
lexrageorge

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Saints Rest said:
Which was the year that the last game of the season was "The Stupor Bowl" against a similarly one-win Baltimore Colts team with the loser winning the #1 pick. I can't remember if they won by losing or lost by winning. Was is the year that the Colts "won" Elway? Or was it the year the Pats "won" Kenneth Sims (or maybe Irving Fryar)?
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The Pats "won" Ken Sims. The Colts got Johnie Cook (slight win) and then Art Schlichter 2 picks later.
 
ifmanis5

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They did get Tippett and Marion in that draft. But yeah. The bad old days. Complete opposite of today. Enjoy the hell out of this.
 
InstaFace

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People like Bill Belichick make worthwhile the entire, oft-thankless, oft-farcical, douchebag-attracting business of following sports closely, simply for the chance to watch genius at work and be revealed and apparent to all, with regularity. The best doctor in the world isn't celebrated because such things aren't measured; the best accountant is well-paid but anonymous, the best hedge fund manager praised one year and scorned (or indicted) the next. But Bill Belichick is on our TV screens week after week, fall after fall, alternating between making opponents look like blithering idiots, or taking the best shots from a good team and grinding it out to where you look up at the scoreboard in the 4th quarter and, lo and behold, his team is winning. His teams get handicapped in the draft, or kneecapped by the league, and he keeps right on watching with that analytical expression - occasionally smug, occasionally outraged - as his teams replace talent, reload, and repeat their mantras.

It's not just moment-to-moment entertainment, a great play or a great game that come around every season for just about every team. It's a philosophically- and intellectually-satisfying entertainment, a reminder that sometimes meritocracy is, in fact, all that it's cracked up to be. Pedro Martinez was both, but we only got 4 or 5 years to really appreciate his greatness that way. Belichick and Brady have given us 16 so far, plus a warm-up year. We really are blessed.
 
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