Ortiz's Unique Final Year

Mighty Joe Young

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Nice article .. Thanks for posting ..

Of course, the big advantage that Papi enjoys in this whole "records in their final year" thing is that he's been a DH for thirteen years. Who knows what the final years of most Hall of Famers would have looked like if they had enjoyed similar advantages.
 

foulkehampshire

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Nice article .. Thanks for posting ..

Of course, the big advantage that Papi enjoys in this whole "records in their final year" thing is that he's been a DH for thirteen years. Who knows what the final years of most Hall of Famers would have looked like if they had enjoyed similar advantages.
I think if Ortiz had a lower body that could withstand playing 150+ games at 1B he'd still be at the position. The mental aspect of having to gear up for your 4-5 PA without being on the field must be psychologically harder. Most players perform better when they have a field position. Even bat first guys like Giambi, Encarnacion, Thome, Thomas performed significantly better with gloves.

Ironically Manny hit pretty well as a DH (.950+ OPS in 332 G). Never really had a chance to cement himself there between all those DH type hitters in Cleveland and then Ortiz.
 

phenweigh

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These records for Papi where the comps are final year seasons and players 40+ are cool. But what I find absolutely crazy is that he leads MLB in doubles ... an old guy that can't run ... where the competition is everybody! Who would have put money down on that?
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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I think if Ortiz had a lower body that could withstand playing 150+ games at 1B he'd still be at the position. The mental aspect of having to gear up for your 4-5 PA without being on the field must be psychologically harder. Most players perform better when they have a field position. Even bat first guys like Giambi, Encarnacion, Thome, Thomas performed significantly better with gloves.

Ironically Manny hit pretty well as a DH (.950+ OPS in 332 G). Never really had a chance to cement himself there between all those DH type hitters in Cleveland and then Ortiz.
I would think it's more about consistency than actually having a defensive position. None of the guys you listed as having trouble while DHing did it for any length of time as their only position.

Suggesting that it must have been harder for Ortiz to hit while solely a DH than it would have been as a first baseman is, well, weird.
 

foulkehampshire

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I would think it's more about consistency than actually having a defensive position.

Suggesting that it must have been harder for Ortiz to hit while solely a DH than it would have been as a first baseman is, well, weird.
Not really. Without the defensive component of the game your total contributions depend on the 4-5 PA you get a night.
Find me a DH that significantly improved offensively when making the switch outside of Ortiz and Martinez. I mean, since it's supposedly easier to hit there.

None of the guys you listed as having trouble while DHing did it for any length of time as their only position.
Half of Frank Thomas' PA are from DH
Since 2012 Edwin's been pretty much 50/50 DH/Field.

Billy Butler, full time DH since 26. Better hitter as a 1B. Jason Giambi and Pizza have gone on record about how they hate DH'ing as well.

I don't think its as far fetched as you propose.
 

Max Power

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That's a little silly. Players are moved to DH because they've reached the downside of their career and they're physically no longer able to handle playing defense. Of course their offensive numbers will be lower in their 30s versus their 20s.
 

soxfan121

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Not really. Without the defensive component of the game your total contributions depend on the 4-5 PA you get a night.
Find me a DH that significantly improved offensively when making the switch outside of Ortiz and Martinez. I mean, since it's supposedly easier to hit there.



Half of Frank Thomas' PA are from DH
Since 2012 Edwin's been pretty much 50/50 DH/Field.

Billy Butler, full time DH since 26. Better hitter as a 1B. Jason Giambi and Pizza have gone on record about how they hate DH'ing as well.

I don't think its as far fetched as you propose.
Wait... you don't think the ability to study video between at-bats is valuable? That playing the field helps a DH hit better?
 

mjdNYC

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Pretty nice article in the NYTimes today. Don't see it linked above.

Apologies, should likely be in other Ortiz thread, please move if inappropriate in this thread.
 

soxfan121

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You don't position players have the ability to study video between at-bats? Of course it's valuable.
And as a DH, Ortiz has more time to study his previous at-bats.

Yet, you said:

Better hitter as a 1B.
When do position players have time to study video on previous at-bats during the game the way a DH does?

Obviously, they don't. They may get to glance at something in between innings, but that is at most a minute – it isn't "study."

So... I ask again: You think that playing the field helps a [player] hit better?
 

Minneapolis Millers

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Re: Ortiz and doubles... How many balls has he hit to or off the wall that anyone with average running ability would have easily had 2d on? I haven't seen most of his ABs and I can think of at least 5-6. And he STILL leads in 2Bs. Ridiculous.

Re: DHs studying video and having an advantage over position players... Yes, they do have more time to study video, but it's not as though Ortiz actually IS in the clubhouse or staring at his tablet the whole time in between at bats. He's not a lab scientist. Paying attention to the game is part of playing the game, too. There have been many players who have said that they don't like to DH because it takes them out of the flow of the game, gives them TOO MUCH time to obsess about prior at bats, and is otherwise boring. So it can cut both ways...
 

SumnerH

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And as a DH, Ortiz has more time to study his previous at-bats.

Yet, you said:



When do position players have time to study video on previous at-bats during the game the way a DH does?

Obviously, they don't. They may get to glance at something in between innings, but that is at most a minute – it isn't "study."

So... I ask again: You think that playing the field helps a [player] hit better?
The numbers show that it does (see post #11, among many studies).
 

soxfan121

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The numbers show that it does (see post #11, among many studies).
Do you find it compelling when applied to Ortiz (or Martinez)?

I don't doubt there's some measurable difference between a player who is primarily a field player (say, Matt Adams of the St. Louis Cardinals) who is shifted to DH when in AL parks. That's the sample being measured in the linked study (among others) - the non-professional DH appearing as DH. Aggregating those stats and finding an effect similar to the PH penalty is... unsurprising. It also sets off my BS detector.

As noted by @foulkehampshire - Ortiz (and Martinez) are different. Unlike non-professional DHs, they were not used in the field unless it was absolutely necessary (i.e. in an NL park during interleague games). As the sample of the full time DH increases, I bet the DH penalty decreases.
 

sheamonu

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The doubles thing is crazy - but the thing I really marvel at is the fact that he leads the majors in OPS by a margin that is essentially Beamonesque. Trout is second by about 50 points and he's playing for a team that pitchers chart by basically accepting that in any tight situation they will walk him - while the Sox have the 2, 3 and 4 hitters for average in the league. I know Ortiz walks a good bit - he's a patient hitter - but the reason he's leading in this category is really all down to squaring the ball up and hitting it fecking HARD in a huge percentage of his at bats - at 40 years old. Amazing.
 

soxfan121

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I can't say for certain that it doesn't. So if you want to put me in a corner I'll bite and say yes.

Do you think DH'ing confers an offensive advantage? (outside of health)
I think it might. I think for some hitters, there is a "competitive advantage" to be found via in-game study of video, either prior in-game at-bats against the starter or against likely relievers.

However, I also think you have a point that players who "stay focused" by playing in the field will perform worse when taken out of that routine to DH. It would seem to be a mindset thing. Manny is a decent example: he lived to hit, so he could get in the cage during an inning and swing, or look at video of the guy he was gonna hit against next.