Liverpool 2016-17: Klopp's Kop
- Thread starter SoxFanInCali
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I don't get what Klopp is doing here. In Belichick we trust and all that but I'm just not seeing it. No LB cover and now telling one of the club's better Center halves to beat it. I mean 4-3 over Arsenal was exciting but I don't think it's sustainable (see 0-2 to Burnley the very next week.) Pissing away strong attacking talent because the back keeps leaking goals is going to be super frustrating to watch.
Depth is important, but less so without Europe. I think Klopp is making a statement about off field issues, those we're aware of (the drug test) or others only hinted at (locker room presence).
Also... He just isn't that good. I've said this many times, but his stats just don't tell the whole story. His pass completion numbers look good but he picks the first guy he sees. He doesn't put the ball in safe areas and gets his teammates in trouble.
With Lucas around they have an emergency stop gap. His defensive deficiencies versus his massively improved passing and vision over Sakho is probably a net zero.
I don't see this as a huge deal one way or another.
Also... He just isn't that good. I've said this many times, but his stats just don't tell the whole story. His pass completion numbers look good but he picks the first guy he sees. He doesn't put the ball in safe areas and gets his teammates in trouble.
With Lucas around they have an emergency stop gap. His defensive deficiencies versus his massively improved passing and vision over Sakho is probably a net zero.
I don't see this as a huge deal one way or another.
Looks to be a busy day for the Anfield exit door. Luis Alberto already transferred to Lazio, reportedly for £4.3m plus a 30% sell on clause. Balotelli is being connected to Nice, possibly dependent on a Liverpool wage subsidy. Who knows what Sakho is up to, an Markovic seems to have several options but not many specific details floating around about a deal for him.
I don't think the £11m bid for Pulisic was all that serious. It's well below what Dortmund would expect, but the offer was a public signal to Pulisic that Klopp & the American owners have interest...so maybe don't sign a new deal quite yet....
The lack of a left back and another hardworking, steely midfielder is frustrating. I'm going to tell myself that the right deals just weren't there and the team is better for not impulsively signing players to do something rather than make prudent deals for the right guys . Speaking of Balotelli, if he, Sakho, and Markovic all go out, it brings the squad size down to a very reasonable 23 and certainly lightens the wage bill significantly compared to a year ago. I'm hoping this puts Klopp in a strong position for the January window.
I don't think the £11m bid for Pulisic was all that serious. It's well below what Dortmund would expect, but the offer was a public signal to Pulisic that Klopp & the American owners have interest...so maybe don't sign a new deal quite yet....
The lack of a left back and another hardworking, steely midfielder is frustrating. I'm going to tell myself that the right deals just weren't there and the team is better for not impulsively signing players to do something rather than make prudent deals for the right guys . Speaking of Balotelli, if he, Sakho, and Markovic all go out, it brings the squad size down to a very reasonable 23 and certainly lightens the wage bill significantly compared to a year ago. I'm hoping this puts Klopp in a strong position for the January window.
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A rousing, memorable way to open the new main stand yesterday. It's clear to see Klopp's vision already playing out in the attack. Mane, Firmino, Lallana, Wijnaldum, and even Sturridge are pressing diligently and intelligently (mostly). When they win the ball, they are a incisive and cagey, making runs from all angles to carve open a back line. The attack hasn't look so dangerous and exciting since Suarez.
As for the defense...as for Lucas...egads, man. At least Mingolet made some huge stops today.
As for the defense...as for Lucas...egads, man. At least Mingolet made some huge stops today.
Kind of makes one wonder how things could be if they could manage to stay the fuck out of their own way, doesn't it? Feels like they're due for a relentlessly stupid play like that at least once every four games. Luckily, scoring 4 goals gives you a good enough cushion to easily overcome that kind of dumbfuckery.
No doubt the Lucas play was a howler of the first order. Outside of that I thought he played quite well. I wouldn't hesitate to put him back in.
Upon further review the Lucas gaffe goal should have been disallowed:
https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/howard-webb-explains-why-jamie-205344432.html
The ball never left the penalty area so Lucas shouldn't have been pressured.
https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/howard-webb-explains-why-jamie-205344432.html
The ball never left the penalty area so Lucas shouldn't have been pressured.
Yes, it was a goal within the rules. The ball left the box, the first touch happened outside and then it´s within the rules. I mean, Webb knows the rules right, but he probably saw it wrong.
You can see it from 2:25 on in that video in some angles, the ball goes out of the box, then he touches it. It doesn´t matter, if Okazaki is in the box the entire time. It would be smart, if Lucas had touched it in the box, then it would just be replayed. But he probably didn´t have the cleverness, that´s the little things players don´t get taught these days.
You can see it from 2:25 on in that video in some angles, the ball goes out of the box, then he touches it. It doesn´t matter, if Okazaki is in the box the entire time. It would be smart, if Lucas had touched it in the box, then it would just be replayed. But he probably didn´t have the cleverness, that´s the little things players don´t get taught these days.
Except Webb is saying that Okazaki's encroachment to pressure Lucas should have triggered the whistle. Whether it eventually leaves the box would be immaterial.
The U23s beat Leicester U23s 4-0 yesterday. I don't know if there's video of Next Michael Owen aka Ben Woodburn's goal, but Klopp evidently liked the performance:
The U23s beat Leicester U23s 4-0 yesterday. I don't know if there's video of Next Michael Owen aka Ben Woodburn's goal, but Klopp evidently liked the performance:
So, just to review...
Won at Arsenal.
Won at Chelsea.
Drew at Spurs.
Blew out Leicester City at Anfield.
And yet somehow managed to lose to Burnley.
This season will not be boring.
Won at Arsenal.
Won at Chelsea.
Drew at Spurs.
Blew out Leicester City at Anfield.
And yet somehow managed to lose to Burnley.
This season will not be boring.
No, it won't for even a moment be boring. But that's fine. I'm securely buckled in to my seat on the Kloppo Express (destination unknown).
I only caught the second half, but Henderson truly looked the part today. The goal was gorgeous, but his tackling, pressing, and intelligent passing were instrumental in securing the win. I have been very down on Henderson play in Klopp's system, but today he was superb. I hope this is a sign of things to come.
I only caught the second half, but Henderson truly looked the part today. The goal was gorgeous, but his tackling, pressing, and intelligent passing were instrumental in securing the win. I have been very down on Henderson play in Klopp's system, but today he was superb. I hope this is a sign of things to come.
Tidy 3-0 win at Derby in the league cup with a ~80% strength squad. Debut for Karius, a nice goal for Origi, and Klavan gets his first.
We're onto Hull
We're onto Hull
So I really liked the lineup today especially a debut for Karius in a non-pressure situation. Runouts for Grujic, Moreno, Klavan and Origi (nice to see him score to as he seems to be a confidence scorer) plus Ings and Can off the bench for a half hour each and 55 minutes for someone named Ovie Ejaria. Good work by Klopp to rotate. Any word on Henderson? Can was listed as an injury sub.
It's Hull City and 10 men and whatnot, but even with all qualifiers in place......man is this a fun team to watch. Their pressing prowess and ball movement just keeps getting better and better. It's going to be quite a ride!
Henderson is really looking solid in his role now. A few of his stats from the Hull matched over at WhoScored: 115 passes, 7 tackles, 3 interceptions, 3 shots, and only lost possession 1 time. Henderson's development within Klopp's system has been vital the past few weeks with Can injured and the back line still shaky.
I also love Karius' distribution. He looks to recycle possession quickly. It's going to add a necessary new dimension to the attack.
I also love Karius' distribution. He looks to recycle possession quickly. It's going to add a necessary new dimension to the attack.
They only thing Klopp really said was that Sakho's remarks "weren't positive" .. It's still a bit of a stretch to get from there to "his Liverpool career is over". Of course Sakho's mini rant doesn't exactly help his situation.
Sturridge looked to be a problem yesterday. Awful decision making throughout, he didn't seem to buy into the system that's making Firmino, Lallana, Coutinho, and Mane effective. He was totally me-first and stuck out like a sore thumb. His lack of preparedness to come on was disappointing, but not surprising. At the death he inexplicably crossed, gifting the ball back to Swansea for a final push. He was under minimal pressure and had the path to the corner flag. Therefore, ThisIsAnfield rated him a 7.
I doubted the Mane signing and I look so beautifully, delightfully wrong. I'm shocked by what he's brought to the table. He's a constant, unpredictable threat with a work rate to rival Kante last year. Just awesome stuff.
Mignolet must be happy with how his competition played... Yikes.
It's nice to go into an international break after three points for a change.
I doubted the Mane signing and I look so beautifully, delightfully wrong. I'm shocked by what he's brought to the table. He's a constant, unpredictable threat with a work rate to rival Kante last year. Just awesome stuff.
Mignolet must be happy with how his competition played... Yikes.
It's nice to go into an international break after three points for a change.
Im not seeing the Sturridge era ending well. And it's not really anything he's done wrong. It's just that Klopp demands certain qualities of hard work and fluidity of movement from his forwards - and Sturridge either lacks the motivation or the actual ability to display these qualities. Right now Firmino seems entrenched - along with Coutinho and Mane. I don't think Sturridge gets regular minutes without a major injury. Even then it's not assured. Klopp showed that last year when he favoured an in-form Origi.
When I look at the guys starting, Coutinho seems to be the only guy that hasn't bought in 100%. It's still working, but form time to time he reverts to the "I am going to shoot this from 25 yards no matter what opportunity presents itself" look. It's getting rarer but you still get the impression that he's trying to fill a quota in his head. His workrate is still better than it's ever been and the understanding he's building with Firmino, Lallana, and Mane is only going to continue to grow. That development will be fun to watch.
Sturridge doesn't strike me as the type that is going to bend his style for anybody. There are times when you need a true out and out striker, but is he going to be happy as a role player in that regard? Would he even get the nod over Origi? At least the Belgian can hold up play to some extent if necessary. To be fair to Sturridge, when Origi came on he didn't look like he'd bought in any more than Sturridge had. Any pretense of link-up play or one touch passing was gone. He was just as locked-in on creating scoring opportunities for himself.
This will be a big one for Klopp to resolve. His preferred four won't be always be available.
Sturridge doesn't strike me as the type that is going to bend his style for anybody. There are times when you need a true out and out striker, but is he going to be happy as a role player in that regard? Would he even get the nod over Origi? At least the Belgian can hold up play to some extent if necessary. To be fair to Sturridge, when Origi came on he didn't look like he'd bought in any more than Sturridge had. Any pretense of link-up play or one touch passing was gone. He was just as locked-in on creating scoring opportunities for himself.
This will be a big one for Klopp to resolve. His preferred four won't be always be available.
Seven matches in and some of the Liverpool stats are really starting to pop out. Klopp has really fashioned this squad into an offensive machine. Over at WhoScored.com we find that 'Pool are tied with ManCity for most dribbles per game, 15.1, across the Big 5 Leagues. Liverpool also sit in 3rd place for both it's 19.3 shots per game and 7 shots on goal per game. As a side, they're really putting tremendous pressure on defenses.
While Mane and Firmino's stats really jump out, I want to highlight my new main man Jordan Henderson again. He's logged over 600 minutes in the Premier League so far, and he's leading the team in passes per game (84, 6 of them being long passes), second in completion percentage (90%), first in tackles (4), second in interceptions (1.7), while only being dispossessed .4 times per game and making .7 bad touches per game. Henderson is really taking care of the midfield so far, so much so that I haven't even missed Can.
Edit: In my late night haze, I should have also mentioned that: Lallana has also been outstanding by all measures. Mane, Firmino, and Lallana have been the top performers so far, in that order if you ask me.
Henderson's performances have been uneven. His form has been fantastic the past month, from the Leicester match on. But he played two dogs against Arsenal and Tottenham, which is concercning because those are the two best sides Liverpool have faced. Henderson needs to keep his form going.
As a squad, 'Pool are taking 8.7 shots/game outside the box, 9.4 in the box, and 1.1 within the 6 yard. The 8.7 figure puts them first among teams in the Big 5, a head of Napoli (8.4), Tottenham (8.1), and Torino (7.7). Now, Coutinho far and away leads the team in shots with 4.1/match and shots outside the box with 2.7/match. At this point, I don't think Klopp would play Coutinho as much as he has if this wasn't part of the plan. Coutinho is fantastically skilled at long shots, and a guy who can really rip them from 20-25yds puts stress on a defense when the counter pressing and dribbles quickly open up pockets of space between the midfield and back line. I'm inclined to think Klopp is putting Coutinho's best skill to use.
While Mane and Firmino's stats really jump out, I want to highlight my new main man Jordan Henderson again. He's logged over 600 minutes in the Premier League so far, and he's leading the team in passes per game (84, 6 of them being long passes), second in completion percentage (90%), first in tackles (4), second in interceptions (1.7), while only being dispossessed .4 times per game and making .7 bad touches per game. Henderson is really taking care of the midfield so far, so much so that I haven't even missed Can.
Edit: In my late night haze, I should have also mentioned that: Lallana has also been outstanding by all measures. Mane, Firmino, and Lallana have been the top performers so far, in that order if you ask me.
Henderson's performances have been uneven. His form has been fantastic the past month, from the Leicester match on. But he played two dogs against Arsenal and Tottenham, which is concercning because those are the two best sides Liverpool have faced. Henderson needs to keep his form going.
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Great data.
Coutinho's long range shooting is a dilemma for both sides. You have to take shots to score, but he's inevitably going to make some poor choices. The defense has to treat him as a constant danger, closing him down. That should create space. If he can figure out the right times to pull the trigger without knocking his rate down significantly the entire offense will improve. You can tell when he's forcing it and they cut to a frustrated/angry Klopp. This is another area that time should improve.
Henderson is incredibly mercurial. He doesn't have "decent" games. He's dreadful or very good (rarely excellent). Emre Can needs to be part of the solution when Henderson's form inevitably dips. It was surprising to see Can playing so high against Swansea- I would have expected him to slot in deep to protect the lead. I enjoyed the "best defense is a strong offense" approach and he made some surprisingly intelligent runs for a guy I associate more on the defensive side. Can he develop into a true box to box type?
Coutinho's long range shooting is a dilemma for both sides. You have to take shots to score, but he's inevitably going to make some poor choices. The defense has to treat him as a constant danger, closing him down. That should create space. If he can figure out the right times to pull the trigger without knocking his rate down significantly the entire offense will improve. You can tell when he's forcing it and they cut to a frustrated/angry Klopp. This is another area that time should improve.
Henderson is incredibly mercurial. He doesn't have "decent" games. He's dreadful or very good (rarely excellent). Emre Can needs to be part of the solution when Henderson's form inevitably dips. It was surprising to see Can playing so high against Swansea- I would have expected him to slot in deep to protect the lead. I enjoyed the "best defense is a strong offense" approach and he made some surprisingly intelligent runs for a guy I associate more on the defensive side. Can he develop into a true box to box type?
That's certainly true. But the only other player averaging over a long shot per game right now is Sturridge (1.2/game), and he's not exactly getting much run out there. Coutinho is probably being encouraged to take the long shots at the "right" time, and Phillipe's got to do to more consistently identify those spots.
I peaked back at the long shot stats from Kloppo's last few season at Dortmund. There is a clear upward trend in the number of long shots his team took over the seasons. Players with over 1000 minutes played & over 1 long shot per game:
2009-2010 - Hajnal (1), Zidan (1)
2010-2011 - Sahin (1.3)
2011-2012 - none
2012-2013 - Reus (1.1), Gundogan (1)
2013-2014 - Reus (1.5), Sahin (1.2)
2014-2015 - Mkhitaryan (1.4), Gundogan (1.3), Reus (1.3) [Sahin & Jolic both at 1.1, but under 1000 minutes)
I think Klopp's system is evolving to include more long shots in general, and he's empowered Coutinho in particular to take them often. Coutinho is also getting off 2.3 key passes/game so far this year, so he's really putting the pressure on defenses. If Countinho can keep improving his decisions within Klopp's system...if, if, if...
Wijnaldum goes down with hamstring injury in the second half of the Holland-France WCQ. Looks like Can, who wasn't called up to the German team this break, is the next man up.
I'm still trying to wrap my head around going into an international break with a win and coming back out with Sturridge not out for six weeks.
Folks are going to get hurt over the course of the year, especially the internationals with extra duty. Wijnaldum is an area of some depth so this should be absorbed.
Folks are going to get hurt over the course of the year, especially the internationals with extra duty. Wijnaldum is an area of some depth so this should be absorbed.
Well, that was disappointing. Not just the result, but the quality of the match. There were stretches in that first half that looked like my rec league.
The 'Pool attack looked very disjointed and sloppy until Lallana came on. Coutinho had 7 turnovers, Mane 6, and Firmino 5. It's worrying that the attack seems to rely so much on the top-4 being on the pitch together; injuries and congestion are ahead. It would be ideal if Sturridge left in January and a better fit was brought in (Pavoletti from Genoa is a recent rumor).
I thought Can had a mixed day. He had the one great dribble and shot, 4 other dribbles, 3 give aways, a few tackles, and decent passing. But he held deeper than I thought he needed to against such a defensive ManU set up. Not sure if that was by design, by natural inclination, or in response to Pogba playing further up than normal, but the attack needed extra men all day.
And Karius had a howlingly bad give away under pressure from Ibra. I'm afraid a Karius mistake will bite this team in the ass soon.
The 'Pool attack looked very disjointed and sloppy until Lallana came on. Coutinho had 7 turnovers, Mane 6, and Firmino 5. It's worrying that the attack seems to rely so much on the top-4 being on the pitch together; injuries and congestion are ahead. It would be ideal if Sturridge left in January and a better fit was brought in (Pavoletti from Genoa is a recent rumor).
I thought Can had a mixed day. He had the one great dribble and shot, 4 other dribbles, 3 give aways, a few tackles, and decent passing. But he held deeper than I thought he needed to against such a defensive ManU set up. Not sure if that was by design, by natural inclination, or in response to Pogba playing further up than normal, but the attack needed extra men all day.
And Karius had a howlingly bad give away under pressure from Ibra. I'm afraid a Karius mistake will bite this team in the ass soon.
Karius isn't if, he's when. It's coming. Hopefully it's at the tail end of a 4-0 drubbing the other way that only ruins a clean sheet.
I'd love to see if the problem really is Sturridge or the chemistry the "Top 4" (seems as good a name at this point as any) have built. Plug Origi in and see if it's the same mess. I'm leaning toward it being the chemistry and/or the system not fitting a true striker. The guys it's taken to make the system work don't exactly grow on trees. When Wijnaldum is fit it'd be more interesting to plug him or Can in for one of the 4 instead of Sturridge or Origi.
I'd love to see if the problem really is Sturridge or the chemistry the "Top 4" (seems as good a name at this point as any) have built. Plug Origi in and see if it's the same mess. I'm leaning toward it being the chemistry and/or the system not fitting a true striker. The guys it's taken to make the system work don't exactly grow on trees. When Wijnaldum is fit it'd be more interesting to plug him or Can in for one of the 4 instead of Sturridge or Origi.
I know the conventional wisdom is that the team has improved dramatically under Klopp. So, these stats were eye-opening.
Also important to note that Klopp inherited a squad for about 2/3 of his matches thus far, whereas Rodgers had a summer to build his ideal squad.
I still maintain it's too early to compare the two, but Klopp has had some strong early returns this season, especially given the strength of opponent to date.
I still maintain it's too early to compare the two, but Klopp has had some strong early returns this season, especially given the strength of opponent to date.
Not so eye-opening to me. The complaints about Rodgers weren't about the beginning, but the end. The team was a hair from a title in 2014. But Suarez ain't walking back through that door.
I know the conventional wisdom is that the team has improved dramatically under Klopp. So, these stats were eye-opening.
Exactly. You're talking about a squad with a hot player and a strong captain that would have carried most managers. Klopp has done some neat work with rougher circumstances.
So, Sturridge is gone come January by the looks, eh? Not sure what is going on between him and Klopp.
Sturridge hasn't shown even a flash that he's bought into the system. His pressing is erratic and when he receives the ball the rest of the team may as well reset for defense.
Klopp can't depend on ligaments made of wet tissue paper and built his system on the interchangeable parts he does have. Makes enough sense to me.
Klopp can't depend on ligaments made of wet tissue paper and built his system on the interchangeable parts he does have. Makes enough sense to me.
If (when?) Klopp sells him, what can he reasonably expect to get in return? How should he use the money?
Depends who needs what and who else is available. If somebody like Vardy goes down, Sturridge's value goes up.
They're awfully thin at the back and I doubt Milner is truly seen as the long term solution. Funds could go to filling that void.
They're awfully thin at the back and I doubt Milner is truly seen as the long term solution. Funds could go to filling that void.
Given age, track record, recent form, and injury history, Sturridge is probably "worth" £15m. But with a 50% English player premium...£22m or so?
Kloppo's shopping list is probably something like:
- a long term left back (Milner has been serviceable and has been a champ about the whole thing),
- a young center back to groom
-a young attacker that can rotate in for the "Fab 4" and not ruin the chemistry (the Pulisic dream gets more remote with every good performance)
-Mahmoud Dahoud (too much smoke for too long to not be real, maybe available in January since BM won't get out of its Champions League group?)
I'm also sure Klopp has a "if he ever becomes available" list, too. He seems to have brought much needed focus and long term thinking to Liverpool's transfer strategy.
Kloppo's shopping list is probably something like:
- a long term left back (Milner has been serviceable and has been a champ about the whole thing),
- a young center back to groom
-a young attacker that can rotate in for the "Fab 4" and not ruin the chemistry (the Pulisic dream gets more remote with every good performance)
-Mahmoud Dahoud (too much smoke for too long to not be real, maybe available in January since BM won't get out of its Champions League group?)
I'm also sure Klopp has a "if he ever becomes available" list, too. He seems to have brought much needed focus and long term thinking to Liverpool's transfer strategy.
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Keep in mind that Mane will disappear for the ACN in January, so whether it's Sturridge, Origi, or someone else, they are going to need to survive without him for a month or so.
For that wide position, my guess is Klopp goes with one of Ojo or Ings, maybe with Milner as an outside shot.
On the topic of Ings, I hope he gets a shot soon (maybe tomorrow?) - he's been lighting it up for the U23s, and they'll need him in form come January.
On the topic of Ings, I hope he gets a shot soon (maybe tomorrow?) - he's been lighting it up for the U23s, and they'll need him in form come January.
I always feel that coaches are overrated and GMs underrated. I don't think that Rodgers had too much input in building the team either.
That 2014 had a historically good attack with her top two goal scorers scoring about half of the goals. Then they lost one of them to a transfer and the other to injury. Then they replaced them with Ballotelli who sucked and Benteke who sucked less. On top of that, they lost the long-time leader of the team who was in decline during the last two years.
Klopp is a good coach, but I think he benefited from having a couple of solid transfers this year as well as certain players like Coutinho and Lallana growing us players.
I think it is completely the opposite in soccer. More than in other sports the two jobs should be intimately connected, as system fit is absolutely crucial in putting together a winning side.
Seems more likely they were being held back by Rodgers and his system. Lallana, for example looks like he's "growing" back into the player he promised to be at Southampton.
This is absolutely spot-on. After the Suarez sale Rodgers managed to get less out of everybody in the squad. He stuffed his best eleven names into the side week after week, regardless of whether or not their position had been filled. Emre Can at the back, Firmino and Lallana as wingers in a 3-5-2, Henderson as a defensive midfielder... He was a tactical shitshow.