Out Out, Brief Panda: Pablo To Have Shoulder Surgery

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shaggydog2000

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There are 5 potential causes of a hypothetic Shaw slump going forward:

1.) The old Mistress of BABIP. It's currently sitting around 0.419 right now, so there is definitely room for regression.

2.) Pitchers making adjustments based on scouting reports.

3.) Nagging owie that gets unreported during the season but affects his swing.

4.) Shaw starts seeing more left handed pitchers, against which he currently has a 0.294 OPS in a irrelevant sample of 17 at bats.

5.) Shaw, an unheralded prospect that had to scratch and claw his way through the minors, suddenly decides he can back off, despite the fact that the team could always DFA or option him at essentially zero cost?

Which of these 5 is most believable?
The mental one. It's hard to understand complex situations like hitting multiple major league pitches with different movement in different locations from different hands in different orders with a given batting stance and swing. It's hard work to find the information to support evidence based analysis of that. And then you have sample sizes, and uncertainty, which makes most peoples heads explode. Luck and probability are even harder to understand properly. We don't know about unannounced injuries. But not trying hard enough? Being entitled? Not wanting it? Not being able to handle pressure? We can accuse people of that all day long and just use bad results as evidence of a bad process that is based on mental defects.

Also, Antoine Walker was doing 15-20 years ago what is now the standard, accepted, and statistically smart strategy that most of the NBA wants: a big man who shoots from the three point line and passes well, drawing a defender from the box, creating space and flow, and creating better shots for everyone. He wasn't as good a shooter as players are today, but that is true of the whole NBA. Three point percentage is way up from 'Toine's era, and so are the number of shots. Sports radio killed him for it at the time, but he was just ahead of the curve.
 

reggiecleveland

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Not to get all Port Celler, but the problem with Toine is that he took bad 3pters. The game has changed to look at the 3 more favourably, but what has really changed is the desire to get the wide open 3, and the shift to make getting that open 3 the priority. Curry is obviously the outlier taking contested 3's. Teams now pass up short jumpers even layups to kick the ball to get the wide open 3. He had 3 or so years where he shot the ball lots and well, and his coaches let him. He was a very good shooter by any era and with the shot selection of some of the better teams today would have approached or gone above 40% often.

Opinions, unsupported opinions especially, can diverge. I thought Aintoine Walker, rather than being entitled, after 2003 was often unable to let the game come to him and played with a desperation, and franticness that served his declining skills and athleticism poorly. Again just opinion, but the quotes from WMB indicate he was wired and unable to calm down when things began to go south.

Anyway I don't what went on in At's head after being a highly effective player 2000-2003 he dropped off and took a lot of bad shots. And as mentioned he was square peg in round 4 man hole, especially after leaving Boston.
 

uncannymanny

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5.) Shaw, an unheralded prospect that had to scratch and claw his way through the minors, suddenly decides he can back off, despite the fact that the team could always DFA or option him at essentially zero cost?
I think my favorite part about this line of thinking is that the guy who stole an "established vet's" job will think his position is unassailable.
 

kieckeredinthehead

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Between this and the Farrell thread it's become clear that many members on this board cannot distinguish between things that are hard to measure and things that don't exist. There were a litany of stories about Middlebrooks being "distracted" by all of his ancillary duties or not recognizing the "urgency" of the position, e.g. Gammons:

Granted, Middlebrooks has had numerous physical issues from his back to his calf to his current broken finger. But it troubles the people who run the team that when he was diagnosed as needing contacts in spring training, tried them, said he could pick up slider spins for the first time then ditched them because they weren’t comfortable, it was taken as a lack of urgency to establish himself.
or refusing to play winter ball:

“He’s made a decision that he’s going to focus on other things this winter. He feels he can address what he needs to address without playing winter ball. That’s a decision that he’s made,” said Cherington...“We’re going to present information and what we feel like might be helpful, but ultimately offseasons belong to players, and they need to do what they think is in their best interests,” added Cherington.
Middlebrooks was also injured for much of his time in Boston. I don't know how to partition his failure to stick as a major league baseball player to his injuries, his fundamental lack of skill, or his lack of dedication. Like any professional sport, baseball is a profession that requires absurd athletic ability as well as intense focus and training. Each player contributes varying degrees of each. Half of the ESPN broadcast on Sunday night was dedicated to discussing how much time Papi puts into studying video of opposing pitchers. Article after article has been written about Roger Clemens' or Schilling's notecards. Athletes don't spring fully formed ready to play at the highest level. This sport takes an incredible amount of preparation, both physical and mental.

It's absurd to reject out of hand the idea that some athletes might be more internally driven than others. Or that some athletes might perform better under pressure. Or worse. Or that some managers aren't the right fit for one team. Those are all examples of phenomena that really do actually impact the outcomes of baseball games. The problem is we can't really measure them except indirectly. There is evidence that the "contract year" phenomenon is real - NBA athletes perform better the year before a big contract, and they perform even worse than average the year after getting the contract. Is that a decline in physical skills or a decline in motivation?

Travis Shaw doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who's going to get comfortable. His story points more to the kind of guy who has struggled all his career to be taken seriously and is going to make the most of his opportunity. Why do I think that? I don't know. The way he carries himself on the field. The articles written about how he thinks about the game. The articles written about how he's already trying to make adjustments to how pitchers approach him.

Can we please stop being lazy about any aspect of the game that isn't directly measurable? "Where's your proof" shuts down the conversation out of hand. There's no proof. There's lines of evidence.
 

shaggydog2000

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Between this and the Farrell thread it's become clear that many members on this board cannot distinguish between things that are hard to measure and things that don't exist. There were a litany of stories about Middlebrooks being "distracted" by all of his ancillary duties or not recognizing the "urgency" of the position, e.g. Gammons:

Granted, Middlebrooks has had numerous physical issues from his back to his calf to his current broken finger. But it troubles the people who run the team that when he was diagnosed as needing contacts in spring training, tried them, said he could pick up slider spins for the first time then ditched them because they weren’t comfortable, it was taken as a lack of urgency to establish himself.
or refusing to play winter ball:

“He’s made a decision that he’s going to focus on other things this winter. He feels he can address what he needs to address without playing winter ball. That’s a decision that he’s made,” said Cherington...“We’re going to present information and what we feel like might be helpful, but ultimately offseasons belong to players, and they need to do what they think is in their best interests,” added Cherington.
Middlebrooks was also injured for much of his time in Boston. I don't know how to partition his failure to stick as a major league baseball player to his injuries, his fundamental lack of skill, or his lack of dedication. Like any professional sport, baseball is a profession that requires absurd athletic ability as well as intense focus and training. Each player contributes varying degrees of each. Half of the ESPN broadcast on Sunday night was dedicated to discussing how much time Papi puts into studying video of opposing pitchers. Article after article has been written about Roger Clemens' or Schilling's notecards. Athletes don't spring fully formed ready to play at the highest level. This sport takes an incredible amount of preparation, both physical and mental.

It's absurd to reject out of hand the idea that some athletes might be more internally driven than others. Or that some athletes might perform better under pressure. Or worse. Or that some managers aren't the right fit for one team. Those are all examples of phenomena that really do actually impact the outcomes of baseball games. The problem is we can't really measure them except indirectly. There is evidence that the "contract year" phenomenon is real - NBA athletes perform better the year before a big contract, and they perform even worse than average the year after getting the contract. Is that a decline in physical skills or a decline in motivation?

Travis Shaw doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who's going to get comfortable. His story points more to the kind of guy who has struggled all his career to be taken seriously and is going to make the most of his opportunity. Why do I think that? I don't know. The way he carries himself on the field. The articles written about how he thinks about the game. The articles written about how he's already trying to make adjustments to how pitchers approach him.

Can we please stop being lazy about any aspect of the game that isn't directly measurable? "Where's your proof" shuts down the conversation out of hand. There's no proof. There's lines of evidence.
Team wants player to do something because they believe it benefit the team, and it may not neccesarily be in the players best interest. Player acts in what he believes is his best interest. Player is therefore lazy, doesn't "feel urgency", etc. You really think Middlebrooks failed because changing to wearing uncomfortable contacts all of a sudden in the middle of spring training when his career was on the line was not something he was willing to do? He could have not made the team or been sent down to the minors for the rest of his life before he adjusted to them. Or placing being healthy heading into his next season made more sense to him than improving his trade value in winter ball?

People love making up stories to explain what they don't understand or know about. Filling in that info makes us comfortable. But we know nothing about these players and their mental states, attitudes, personality, and makeup. Not by watching them on TV, and certainly not by reading or seeing spoonfuls of info intentionally fed to us by someone to make us believe the player is a certain way. Talking about these aspects of sports is 100% conjecture. That is why I'm a proof guy. Because the only evidence we have stinks, and what we don't know is massive.

So maybe Pablo is lazy. Or maybe he works incredibly hard, eats ridiculously, and has a body that has been messed up by crash diets and wants to keep him fat. Maybe he's been a bad defender and couldn't hit right handed because of a severely damaged shoulder. Or maybe we can just make up a personality for him based on how he looks and a couple of stories we over heard while never meeting him or spending any time closer than a few hundred feet from him. And that personality always somehow fits with a players performance. It's almost like people see how a player performs and then assign them positive or negative traits based on the outcome
 

uncannymanny

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And "this is what I think about what's going on in a persons mind that I've never met" creates useless discourse that makes threads awful.

Also no one ever rejected "out of hand" that these things can be factors. Nor did anyone ask for "proof." We asked for something -- anything -- other than baseless speculation.
 

reggiecleveland

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kieckeredinthehead Generally evidence v no evidence, not measurable vs. unmeasurable was the problem posters had with the assertion of WMB as entitled. You have provided evidence that supports he lacked urgency. It is not measurable, but it is evidence, an example of good posting.
 
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I'll second that, thanks for bringing something to the table.

But in asking for evidence, all we're really doing is (snarkily) offering up Occam's Razor. We're saying, help me cut down the number of assumptions (or the degree of them) being made here, because otherwise that's a pretty outlandish claim. And in this specific case with Shaw, it still is - the other night, O'Brien was going on and on about how Shaw was repeatedly told, show up in spring training ready to perform, because you never know when you'll have your chance. So by all accounts, he busted ass in the offseason preparing, practicing and working out, and as we know, showed up raking from day 1 this year. That story would portray him as the exact opposite of a player who was prepared to rest on his laurels. Anyone who had to fight to make the majors knows in his gut that his replacement is always not far behind him in the minors or on the depth chart.

I'll also note that player and club disagreeing about how to optimize the player's value does not imply that the player is anything less than 100% committed to the success of his own career. And that a decline in the first year of a new contract could be adjusting to a new coach, system, teammates and city just as much as it is a player resting on their laurels. I can't read beyond the abstract of that linked article, but it doesn't suggest there that they only focused on contract years / new contracts where the player stayed with the same team and coach.
 

kieckeredinthehead

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Team wants player to do something because they believe it benefit the team, and it may not neccesarily be in the players best interest. Player acts in what he believes is his best interest. Player is therefore lazy, doesn't "feel urgency", etc. You really think Middlebrooks failed because changing to wearing uncomfortable contacts all of a sudden in the middle of spring training when his career was on the line was not something he was willing to do? He could have not made the team or been sent down to the minors for the rest of his life before he adjusted to them. Or placing being healthy heading into his next season made more sense to him than improving his trade value in winter ball?
I don't know. That's why I said I don't know in part of the text you quoted.

People love making up stories to explain what they don't understand or know about. Filling in that info makes us comfortable. But we know nothing about these players and their mental states, attitudes, personality, and makeup. Not by watching them on TV, and certainly not by reading or seeing spoonfuls of info intentionally fed to us by someone to make us believe the player is a certain way. Talking about these aspects of sports is 100% conjecture. That is why I'm a proof guy. Because the only evidence we have stinks, and what we don't know is massive.
If this board were exclusively about "proof" there would be nothing to talk about. "The team is 0-7 when Chris Young plays." "I'm a proof guy, where's the proof????" "Here's a link to baseball-reference.com." /threadclosed

"Chris Young makes this team demonstrably worse." "I'm a proof guy, where's the proof?" "I don't have proof, but here's some evidence." "I don't like that evidence, here's other evidence that says you're wrong."

Proof is boring. Lines of evidence are interesting because they give us something to argue about. The early adoption of / interest in data-driven lines of evidence is what made this board great. That doesn't mean there's no room to talk about the personality or character stuff. I think there are other people who are also interested in talking about it. If not, that's cool. If you're not, that's cool, too. I'm personally fascinated by it for two reasons: first, I'm interested in how much personal talent and ability vs. motivation is a deciding factor in success in my own field. Unfortunately, I don't have good metrics about how successful different people are in my field. Baseball is cool because we have really good data on how successful somebody is. So it's an opportunity to think about (and/or bullshit about) the role that raw talent vs. dedication plays in an individual's success (see: Pedroia, Dustin).

Second, I'm interested in how we glean information about player's personality from the shit storm that is contemporary journalism. Yeah, those quotes from Cherington were cherry-picked (first by the reporter first and then by me). Again, this is an issue that's important not just in baseball but in every other aspect of society. What does a journalist or a manager or a scout from an opposing team say about a player tell us about that player? What doesn't it tell us? How does the accumulation of narratives about players help form how we view them? Does that match with reality? Does anybody on this board think that Pedroia doesn't work hard? Well where's the proof? There's no proof - there's just a pile of articles that suggest it's impossible to keep him off a baseball field. I think the Middlebrooks story was interesting because of how much sifting we have to do to find the narrative. I agree we don't have proof - to me that's why it's interesting. I think the Ramirez story is even more interesting because the results he's getting at first base this year directly contradict the narrative that he just wasn't working hard enough to learn how to play LF last year - that it really was an infielder/outfielder thing. And, more importantly, it provides another line of support to the idea that Allard Baird is a fucking idiot.
 

shaggydog2000

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I don't know. That's why I said I don't know in part of the text you quoted.



If this board were exclusively about "proof" there would be nothing to talk about. "The team is 0-7 when Chris Young plays." "I'm a proof guy, where's the proof????" "Here's a link to baseball-reference.com." /threadclosed

"Chris Young makes this team demonstrably worse." "I'm a proof guy, where's the proof?" "I don't have proof, but here's some evidence." "I don't like that evidence, here's other evidence that says you're wrong."

Proof is boring. Lines of evidence are interesting because they give us something to argue about. The early adoption of / interest in data-driven lines of evidence is what made this board great. That doesn't mean there's no room to talk about the personality or character stuff. I think there are other people who are also interested in talking about it. If not, that's cool. If you're not, that's cool, too. I'm personally fascinated by it for two reasons: first, I'm interested in how much personal talent and ability vs. motivation is a deciding factor in success in my own field. Unfortunately, I don't have good metrics about how successful different people are in my field. Baseball is cool because we have really good data on how successful somebody is. So it's an opportunity to think about (and/or bullshit about) the role that raw talent vs. dedication plays in an individual's success (see: Pedroia, Dustin).

Second, I'm interested in how we glean information about player's personality from the shit storm that is contemporary journalism. Yeah, those quotes from Cherington were cherry-picked (first by the reporter first and then by me). Again, this is an issue that's important not just in baseball but in every other aspect of society. What does a journalist or a manager or a scout from an opposing team say about a player tell us about that player? What doesn't it tell us? How does the accumulation of narratives about players help form how we view them? Does that match with reality? Does anybody on this board think that Pedroia doesn't work hard? Well where's the proof? There's no proof - there's just a pile of articles that suggest it's impossible to keep him off a baseball field. I think the Middlebrooks story was interesting because of how much sifting we have to do to find the narrative. I agree we don't have proof - to me that's why it's interesting. I think the Ramirez story is even more interesting because the results he's getting at first base this year directly contradict the narrative that he just wasn't working hard enough to learn how to play LF last year - that it really was an infielder/outfielder thing. And, more importantly, it provides another line of support to the idea that Allard Baird is a fucking idiot.
We do need something to talk about, and it can't be all straight stats all the time, I agree. But my big argument about "intangibles" is that it usually comes down to unconscious biases about a player's appearance and their results. We can't help it, human beings are just built to do that. As you point out, when Ramirez stunk in left field people called him lazy and passed around stories that supported that. Now that he has moved to first and is fine, you hear people talk about how "engaged" he is and other positive terms, with video proof, etc. There is so much conjecture about personality traits, mental states, etc, that I prefer not to dive too deeply into to it to explain performance. It's all circular. I do like to hear how fun it is to watch a certain player, and even sometimes how they torture us. Just a few game threads ago I was making jokes about JD Drew looking so passive all the time. Not that I held that against him as a player, or extrapolated effort level or desire from that, but I knew other people did. And he was eerily blank faced 99% of the time. Like he would have made the same face whether you ran over his dog or baked him a birthday cake. You keep mentioning narrative, but when you have to connect too many blank spots, your narrative is just fiction. If we can keep it to just one or two missing blanks, then we've got something to debate.
 

uncannymanny

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Between this and the Farrell thread it's become clear that many members on this board cannot distinguish between things that are hard to measure and things that don't exist. There were a litany of stories about Middlebrooks being "distracted" by all of his ancillary duties or not recognizing the "urgency" of the position, e.g. Gammons:

Granted, Middlebrooks has had numerous physical issues from his back to his calf to his current broken finger. But it troubles the people who run the team that when he was diagnosed as needing contacts in spring training, tried them, said he could pick up slider spins for the first time then ditched them because they weren’t comfortable, it was taken as a lack of urgency to establish himself.
or refusing to play winter ball:

“He’s made a decision that he’s going to focus on other things this winter. He feels he can address what he needs to address without playing winter ball. That’s a decision that he’s made,” said Cherington...“We’re going to present information and what we feel like might be helpful, but ultimately offseasons belong to players, and they need to do what they think is in their best interests,” added Cherington.
Middlebrooks was also injured for much of his time in Boston. I don't know how to partition his failure to stick as a major league baseball player to his injuries, his fundamental lack of skill, or his lack of dedication. Like any professional sport, baseball is a profession that requires absurd athletic ability as well as intense focus and training. Each player contributes varying degrees of each. Half of the ESPN broadcast on Sunday night was dedicated to discussing how much time Papi puts into studying video of opposing pitchers. Article after article has been written about Roger Clemens' or Schilling's notecards. Athletes don't spring fully formed ready to play at the highest level. This sport takes an incredible amount of preparation, both physical and mental.

It's absurd to reject out of hand the idea that some athletes might be more internally driven than others. Or that some athletes might perform better under pressure. Or worse. Or that some managers aren't the right fit for one team. Those are all examples of phenomena that really do actually impact the outcomes of baseball games. The problem is we can't really measure them except indirectly. There is evidence that the "contract year" phenomenon is real - NBA athletes perform better the year before a big contract, and they perform even worse than average the year after getting the contract. Is that a decline in physical skills or a decline in motivation?

Travis Shaw doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who's going to get comfortable. His story points more to the kind of guy who has struggled all his career to be taken seriously and is going to make the most of his opportunity. Why do I think that? I don't know. The way he carries himself on the field. The articles written about how he thinks about the game. The articles written about how he's already trying to make adjustments to how pitchers approach him.

Can we please stop being lazy about any aspect of the game that isn't directly measurable? "Where's your proof" shuts down the conversation out of hand. There's no proof. There's lines of evidence.
Literally no one asked for proof or rejected the possibility.
 

uncannymanny

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Then your diatribe (which I mostly agree with fwiw) regarding proof probably belongs in another thread. You said:

Proof is boring. Lines of evidence are interesting because they give us something to argue about.
All anyone asked for is the latter. Clearing the bar of complete speculation doesn't seem ridiculous.
 

kieckeredinthehead

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Then your diatribe (which I mostly agree with fwiw) regarding proof probably belongs in another thread. You said:



All anyone asked for is the latter. Clearing the bar of complete speculation doesn't seem ridiculous.
Well then you quoted the wrong reply from me and didn't read what I quoted, where my response for writing "proof is boring" was to somebody who wrote "I'm a proof guy."
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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And that personality always somehow fits with a players performance.
That's a good point. I hadn't really thought of it that way. The only counterexample I can really think of is Manny. Maybe there are others. But the truth is that a .300 hitter could be the laziest guy on the planet, not taking extra batting practice, not to be bothered with scouting reports or whatever, and we'd likely never even know or speculate about it. And you can make an argument that a guy who could with dedication go from very good to great is a bigger disappointment than whatever adjectives we like to apply to Panda.
 

HomeRunBaker

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It's absurd to reject out of hand the idea that some athletes might be more internally driven than others.
This was the point of my initial comment how we don't know what drives an individual until we see a track record of what truly motivates them. I never intended this to take on a life of its own and being asked for "proof" of something I never even claimed was happening with Shaw. I was, and still am, simply of the opinion that having Sandoval lurking in the background eliminates the chance of Shaw losing any edge that "could" occur and I'd rather have Sandoval's presence around for that reason alone as opposed to being out for the year. Regardless of how great or little the chance is I feel it's certainly non-zero (which was my only claim).......and there is nothing wrong with using psychology and theories of motivation in concluding that this is indeed non-zero.

There were a litany of stories about Middlebrooks being "distracted" by all of his ancillary duties or not recognizing the "urgency" of the position, e.g.
I do recall those Middlebrooks episodes which showed an entitled attitude and Antoine Walker didn't win many fans around the league when during his second season as a 21 year old he referring to himself as "a veteran All-Star" simply for being given the ball and the green light on a horrific team. I should have been more specific of the examples you provided. Thank you.
 

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One of these days in the future I'd like to read a human interest story about how one of Sandoval's Venezuelan heroes (e.g. Galarraga or Vizquel) took him under their wing this year and showed him how to go further in baseball. If you read silly reports out of San Francisco, they all try to point to how "he had no friends" on the team...some even saying he chose Boston because of the importance of friendship with Ortiz and Ramirez. Perhaps the guy needs to get his head turned around as much as his body and oftentimes an older compatriot can help do that.
 

Devizier

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Middlebrooks was also injured for much of his time in Boston. I don't know how to partition his failure to stick as a major league baseball player to his injuries, his fundamental lack of skill, or his lack of dedication.
Therein lies the problem; the cause of Middlebrooks' (to use your example) failures as a MLB ballplayer is unknowable, or as you said:
Can we please stop being lazy about any aspect of the game that isn't directly measurable?
"Where's your proof" shuts down the conversation out of hand. There's no proof. There's lines of evidence.
Let's put this another way: What kind of discussion are we trying to have? As you said, we can't measure psychological aspects of a player's performance, so these are matters of conjecture. I don't really mind when people present their educated guesses for what they are. What annoys me is when these sorts of things are presented as fact. At the end of the day, we know very little about players' work ethics, personalities, or how they approach the game.
 
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Heating up in the bullpen

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Sandoval to the 60-day DL today to clear space for Sean O'Sullivan on the 40-man roster. O'Sullivan called up to replace Owens on the active roster. My guess is just as long bullpen depth, given the extra work logged last night. Otherwise no reason to bring him up now for a start in four days.
 

soxhop411

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“@brianmacp: John Farrell made a point of saying that Pablo Sandoval, who’s ”well ahead of schedule,“ could be an option in October of a need arises.”
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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If Shaw doesn't heat up and Panda looks decent defensively, it's probably worth a shot. Hopefully they clich early and can give Moncada another shot for a few games before having to consider this.

That said, Farrell's wording makes me think he means in case of an injury.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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An option to what, oversee the clubhouse spread?
I've been really hoping that Shaw was the real deal... But he's looking more and more like a less SLGing, more OBPing Middlebrooks. In the offseason, more and more, it's looking like he will either be on another team or will function as a backup. Panda will probably be given a shot in ST. If he's looking healthy and slimmer, the Moncada controversy will be a good problem
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I've been really hoping that Shaw was the real deal... But he's looking more and more like a less SLGing, more OBPing Middlebrooks. In the offseason, more and more, it's looking like he will either be on another team or will function as a backup. Panda will probably be given a shot in ST. If he's looking healthy and slimmer, the Moncada controversy will be a good problem
Unless they moved ST to October I have no idea what your point is.

He hasn't played in six months. The playoffs is not time for a rehab stint.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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“@brianmacp: John Farrell made a point of saying that Pablo Sandoval, who’s ”well ahead of schedule,“ could be an option in October of a need arises.”
I don't mind getting playoff Panda provided we aren't using the playoffs as a substitute for a rehab stint. If he doesn't play in a regular season game soon then just ice him until 2017.
 

mauidano

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I don't get this at all. Eight games left in the season, he has not played meaningful baseball all season and all of a sudden he's an option? Or is this just window dressing for Pablo to make him feel wanted and needed?
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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I don't mind getting playoff Panda provided we aren't using the playoffs as a substitute for a rehab stint. If he doesn't play in a regular season game soon then just ice him until 2017.
But you won't be getting playoff Panda. You'll be getting spring training Panda, because he hasn't played 1 inning of baseball that matters in the last 5 months.

I agree with JMOH...this has to spur Shaw, or possibly to let on that Moncada is not being considered for a playoff spot, even remotely.

It makes no sense otherwise
 

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I'm at a loss as to why Farrell would say this. To light a fire under Shaw's ass?
I think it's an acknowledgment that 3B is wide open right now, further reinforced by Holt starting tonight. Maybe it will light a fire under Shaw's ass, but frankly, if you aren't very good, all that leads to is a hot ass. Shaw is 3 for 29 during this Sox winning streak.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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The part where he said he'd be an option in October is regarding '17?
Shit... I also figured it was very clear that that was just silly and unlikely. Not responding to it and going straight to '17 as the most realistic time to consider Panda.
Clearly... I was wrong about how clear it was.
 

mwonow

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Shit... I also figured it was very clear that that was just silly and unlikely. Not responding to it and going straight to '17 as the most realistic time to consider Panda.
Clearly... I was wrong about how clear it was.
It's said that when you put "clearly" in a sentence, you're acknowledging that things might not be that clear.

Though, "clearly, fire Farrell" works, since he stirred up this shit in the first place, and now the Panda suck is enveloping the winners of 9 straight Sox...it's like Sandoval is ready to peel off his outer skin and reveal himself as secretly being Julio Lugo.
 

Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat

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It's said that when you put "clearly" in a sentence, you're acknowledging that things might not be that clear.

Though, "clearly, fire Farrell" works, since he stirred up this shit in the first place, and now the Panda suck is enveloping the winners of 9 straight Sox...it's like Sandoval is ready to peel off his outer skin and reveal himself as secretly being Julio Lugo.
Quality post. You really add value to the main board.
 

NDame616

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I've been really hoping that Shaw was the real deal... But he's looking more and more like a less SLGing, more OBPing Middlebrooks. In the offseason, more and more, it's looking like he will either be on another team or will function as a backup. Panda will probably be given a shot in ST. If he's looking healthy and slimmer, the Moncada controversy will be a good problem
He's been gone for 4 months recovering from the surgery, and he still looks the same. Why am I supposed to think that will change again in February? He literally had nothing to do other than focus on getting healthy and in shape for his $17.5M/year job, and he hasn't done it yet. Color me skeptical that he will all of a sudden change
 

JimD

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I'd save the angst until we see a lineup with Sandoval's name on it. Farrell does a good job of managing the clubhouse and this is probably nothing more than saying something nice about a guy who is likely respected by many of his peers, if not the public and the media.
 

MonstahsInLeft

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I took it more as a way for Farrell to try and keep Panda motivated for the next month during this rehab time. Shaw already has reason to stay focused with Holt ready to step in and Hill and Moncada in the wings.

It sounds like Pablo started DH'ing and will be playing 3B in games soon. In reality it would take injury(s) for him to see a playoff roster but what's the downside of keeping the faint possibility open if you can get a Panda more motivated to work hard and keep the weight off heading into the off-season?
 

Average Reds

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I took it more as a way for Farrell to try and keep Panda motivated for the next month during this rehab time. Shaw already has reason to stay focused with Holt ready to step in and Hill and Moncada in the wings.

It sounds like Pablo started DH'ing and will be playing 3B in games soon. In reality it would take injury(s) for him to see a playoff roster but what's the downside of keeping the faint possibility open if you can get a Panda more motivated to work hard and keep the weight off heading into the off-season?
I think this is about right.

Perhaps Farrell (and DD?) believes that a public acknowledgement of the hard work put in by Sandoval will pay dividends in the long run. (The accounts I have read since being jolted by this news yesterday indicate that he has gone above and beyond what the team have asked of him during his rehab. And we know that Sandoval is a sensitive guy.)

If there is more to it than this, I don't really know what to think of it. I'd be very surprised (astonished? amazed?) if Sandoval could make any contribution at this point in the season.
 

Montana Fan

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He's been gone for 4 months recovering from the surgery, and he still looks the same. Why am I supposed to think that will change again in February? He literally had nothing to do other than focus on getting healthy and in shape for his $17.5M/year job, and he hasn't done it yet. Color me skeptical that he will all of a sudden change
He looked slimmer when I saw him congratulate Pedroia after the grand salami last night. My brother heard that Sandoval is down 30 pounds. And as someone posited, I think Farrell made the comment to make Sandoval feel like part of the team. Along the lines of, you've dropped weight as we asked and our arms are open to you. Let's keep the momentum through the offseason.

Edit: goddammit Average. I opened the window 30 minutes ago, finally read the thread and posted only to find out that once again you beat me to the punch. Perhaps I should just cosign your posts and outsource my limited posting to you.
 

Otis Foster

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He's been gone for 4 months recovering from the surgery, and he still looks the same. Why am I supposed to think that will change again in February? He literally had nothing to do other than focus on getting healthy and in shape for his $17.5M/year job, and he hasn't done it yet. Color me skeptical that he will all of a sudden change
Check in with your optometrist, old sport. He most decidedly does look slimmer, in the photos I've seen at least, and the reports tend to confirm that.
 

phenweigh

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If off-season reports were to be believed, and we know how he reported to spring training, he's capable of putting on blubber quickly.
 

Cesar Crespo

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If the Redsox clinch and have a couple of meaningless games at the end of the year, what can it hurt to have Pablo play? I guess he could do really well and you could be fooled into adding him to the playoff roster. You'd have to cut someone from the 40 man though, as Pablo isn't on it atm due to his place on the 60 day DL.

I'd guess nothing short of an injury would actually see him activated, though. But the bar isn't hard to surpass at 3b and if he really has slimmed down, maybe he has a revert to form like Hanley did. He was a pretty good player until last year.
 
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