2016 Training Camp -Much Needed Relief

dynomite

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Interesting note that former ST coach Scott O'Brien was at camp the last day or two. There were a lot of calls for Joe Judge's head last year, between the Denver game, Philly game, etc. Wonder if O'Brien will pull a Dante and return at some point.
In their Tuesday podcast the PFW guys said he had been at practice 3 days in a row, and speculated that he's "consulting" like Dante did while he was "retired" (Dante went to the Combine in Indy with BB at least one of those years, if I remember correctly). They then joked about how none of the media guys had the courage to ask why O'Brien was at practice.

There were a few stunning ST lapses last season, beyond just the "pooch kick" and blocked punt in the Eagles game. Doesn't surprise me that O'Brien is poking around.
 

Super Nomario

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In their Tuesday podcast the PFW guys said he had been at practice 3 days in a row, and speculated that he's "consulting" like Dante did while he was "retired" (Dante went to the Combine in Indy with BB at least one of those years, if I remember correctly). They then joked about how none of the media guys had the courage to ask why O'Brien was at practice.

There were a few stunning ST lapses last season, beyond just the "pooch kick" and blocked punt in the Eagles game. Doesn't surprise me that O'Brien is poking around.
They also allowed a punt return for a touchdown in the Eagles game. But I don't think the ST really struggled - they just happened to have two major screwups in that one game (which also featured a 101-yard Brady pick-six). FWIW, O'Brien still works for the team as an Area Scout.
 

tims4wins

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They also allowed a punt return for a touchdown in the Eagles game. But I don't think the ST really struggled - they just happened to have two major screwups in that one game (which also featured a 101-yard Brady pick-six). FWIW, O'Brien still works for the team as an Area Scout.
According to my google-fu, the Pats ranked #1 in Rick Gosselin's special teams rankings in 2013, then #3 in 2014, then fell to #11 last year, FWIW. In addition to the Eagles game there was also the Chris Harper punt muff in Denver. I think there were a couple other breakdowns but can't specifically remember.
 

epraz

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According to my google-fu, the Pats ranked #1 in Rick Gosselin's special teams rankings in 2013, then #3 in 2014, then fell to #11 last year, FWIW.
As I recall, they were top 3 in those rankings last year until the mistakes referenced above.
 

pappymojo

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Does it make sense to consider that the special teams failings were the result of injuries taking their toll especially as some special teams specialists (like Bolden) were playing more minutes on offense or defense as a result of injuries to other players? There has to be a tipping point where the 'next man up' process has a negative impact on special teams play.
 

Super Nomario

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According to my google-fu, the Pats ranked #1 in Rick Gosselin's special teams rankings in 2013, then #3 in 2014, then fell to #11 last year, FWIW. In addition to the Eagles game there was also the Chris Harper punt muff in Denver. I think there were a couple other breakdowns but can't specifically remember.
I have a hard time holding this against Judge. First, Harper was the third-string punt returner, only playing because both Edelman and Amendola were hurt. Second, returners sometimes muff punts - Edelman muffed three punts and fumbled another in 2013, for instance. The Pats had two muffs and a fumble last year, which appears averagish, certainly within statistical tolerances of average. Third, if the defense hadn't gone to absolute shit afterwards, no one would even remember the Harper muff.
 

tims4wins

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I have a hard time holding this against Judge. First, Harper was the third-string punt returner, only playing because both Edelman and Amendola were hurt. Second, returners sometimes muff punts - Edelman muffed three punts and fumbled another in 2013, for instance. The Pats had two muffs and a fumble last year, which appears averagish, certainly within statistical tolerances of average. Third, if the defense hadn't gone to absolute shit afterwards, no one would even remember the Harper muff.
Yeah I hear you, if it happened in like week 2 or week 3 it would have felt different since all of the breakdowns on ST seemed to be clustered late in the year when the Pats closed 2-4. Hightower leaving that game probably had a much bigger impact than the muff.
 

Super Nomario

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Yeah I hear you, if it happened in like week 2 or week 3 it would have felt different since all of the breakdowns on ST seemed to be clustered late in the year when the Pats closed 2-4. Hightower leaving that game probably had a much bigger impact than the muff.
I'm looking now, and the Pats had three fumbles / muffs on STs, and they were weeks 12, 14, and 15 (with 13 being the Philly debacle). No one remembers Keshawn Martin muffing a punt against Houston or Amendola coughing the ball up against Tennessee because they won those games handily. So that was a pretty bad stretch for ST, which just seems like unfortunate clustering more than anything.
 

tims4wins

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Thanks for confirming. Seemed like weekly disasters or near disasters during the second half which your post confirms. Like you said didn't help that it all came during the poor closing stretch

edit: do you think Judge is on a shorter leash though, a la Googs last year?
 

Super Nomario

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Thanks for confirming. Seemed like weekly disasters or near disasters during the second half which your post confirms. Like you said didn't help that it all came during the poor closing stretch
My point is they came clustered, but some of the worst performances were irrelevant because they won handily anyway.

edit: do you think Judge is on a shorter leash though, a la Googs last year?
Was Googs on a short leash, or was it just that Scarnecchia came back? Would they have replaced Googs if Scar hadn't expressed interest in returning? Was Googs on a short leash entering the year even though they won the Super Bowl?

If Scott O'Brien wants to come back, I think Belichick would find a way to make that happen. Barring that, I don't think Judge is on shaky ground, but I'm certainly not privy to Belichick's evaluation of his coaches.
 

tims4wins

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Hard to know. By the end of the year he seemed to be. Plus IIRC they parted ways with Googs before they hired Dante
 

Shelterdog

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Hard to know. By the end of the year he seemed to be. Plus IIRC they parted ways with Googs before they hired Dante
Technically sure but I'll bet you 10 internet points that they had at least a pretty good idea about whether Dante was willing to come back (Dante was coaching a day or two a week).
 

tims4wins

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Technically sure but I'll bet you 10 internet points that they had at least a pretty good idea about whether Dante was willing to come back (Dante was coaching a day or two a week).
True. Maybe it truly was a mutual parting of the ways in that Googs wanted a full time OL job and the Pats wanted Dante back, and Googs didn't want to co-lead the OL.
 

tims4wins

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Not sure where else to put this, but Mike Sando has an article behind the ESPN paywall ranking schedules based on the opponent QB quality - and the Pats have the easiest schedule by this metric.

Good news: The Patriots play one second-tier QB (Palmer) and three third-tier QBs (Tannehill, Osweiler, Taylor) while Brady serves his four-game suspension to start the season. Overall, they play 11 games against QBs ranked outside the top 20. No other team plays more than nine. Thirteen QBs received at least one first-tier vote. New England plays a league low three of them.

Bad news: There is no bad news. This is a dream schedule, as far as opposing QBs are concerned. The Patriots play only five games all season against QBs anywhere near the top two tiers. Brady will be eligible to play every one of those games, except the opener at Arizona.
 

Yossarian

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We know they have faith in Andrews. I also wonder if this means Cooper is coming back soon. Not that he'd take over at center necessarily, but maybe he allows another guard to shift down, at least for depth purposes.
 

H78

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Am I crazy for thinking that somewhere in the back of his mind BB may be considering starting Brissett over Garoppolo?

Garoppolo has had a couple of nice moments this preseason, but looking objectively at his time on the field I see a guy that still seems pretty overwhelmed by the (mostly) vanilla defenses he's seen up to this point. Meanwhile, Brissett seems like more of a playmaker and from what I've seen is surprisingly quick with his decision-making and getting the ball out of his hand.

Wouldn't it be such a BB move to announce Brissett the starter the day of the Cards game and hope that his speed, physicality, and ability to hold onto the ball may help the Patriots squeak out a win in a clock-controlled defensive battle?

I don't THINK this is what's going to happen, but based on what we've seen, would any of us be surprised?
 

H78

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Yeah, like I said, I don't actually think it would happen (because of everything invested into JimmyG up to this point), but Brissett has shown more this preseason than Garoppolo, and BB is all about guys earning their places on the team. It would be such a classic, polarizing BB move.
 

RedOctober3829

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Am I crazy for thinking that somewhere in the back of his mind BB may be considering starting Brissett over Garoppolo?

Garoppolo has had a couple of nice moments this preseason, but looking objectively at his time on the field I see a guy that still seems pretty overwhelmed by the (mostly) vanilla defenses he's seen up to this point. Meanwhile, Brissett seems like more of a playmaker and from what I've seen is surprisingly quick with his decision-making and getting the ball out of his hand.

Wouldn't it be such a BB move to announce Brissett the starter the day of the Cards game and hope that his speed, physicality, and ability to hold onto the ball may help the Patriots squeak out a win in a clock-controlled defensive battle?

I don't THINK this is what's going to happen, but based on what we've seen, would any of us be surprised?
Absolutely no chance that this would happen. Jimmy knows the offense much better and is a better player. Garoppolo's issue is his consistency from week-to-week. If you're thinking Brissett's speed is a factor, isn't Jimmy fast enough to make plays with his legs? I'd think so. Brissett has "shown" things because he's gone up against teams' 2nd and 3rd team defenses while Garoppolo has gone against the 1's.
 

TheRooster

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I'm with Red, although if JG were to be bad in the first two games I think there will be a temptation to try Brissett.
 

CoolPapaLaSchelle

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Do we feel as though the most likely outcome here is that Jimmy G shows enough promise (think Osweiler-level production) that we are able to flip him in the off-season and slide Brissett into the #2 role in 2017?
 

tims4wins

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Most likely? No. Best case? Hell yeah. Most likely IMO is that he plays decently, some ups and downs, but not enough for a team to offer a 1st or 2nd rounder for him. Maybe more like a 4th-5th and the Pats may value his last year on the roster more than a late round pick. If I had to bet I would bet on Jimmy being here in 2017
 

Stitch01

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Depends on what you mean by "flip him". If you mean he plays well enough flip him for like a conditional fourth rounder or something, sure, that's somewhat likely if its the path the Pats want to go down.

Obviously hope he plays well, but Im realistically Im just hoping he's like Brian Hoyer level kinda bad and not Scott Tolzein level terribad.
 

RoDaddy

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Finally some good news for the OL - Cooper and Mason back to practice today. Can't wait to see what Dante can do with a talent like Cooper, and pretty much the same with Mason (I remember BB once praising Shaq's speed, athleticism and power on an 'EEI interview)
 

( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)

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Something to monitor---

Mike Garafolo ‏@MikeGarafolo 38s39 seconds ago
Another guy available via trade: Chiefs' Knile Davis, who has been on the roster bubble all camp. Ty Hill as KR makes Davis expendable.
Jamaal Charles tore his ACL and then in his 3rd year in the league Knile Davis could not take snaps from undrafted 2nd year player Charcandrick West and journey man Spencer Ware who was not on a team for the 2014 season.

The guy is nothing but a kick return specialist that KC fans had false hope in as a RB option. I don't see any way that Knile Davis bumps any of the Pats current RBs off the roster.
 

( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)

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RedOctober I'm not directing this at you personally and I'm not a mod here so everyone feel free to ignore me if you want.

But in the spirit of making this a better place to talk about the Patriots I think it would be an improvement if people posted a little bit about why the Patriots should be interested in an available or soon to be available player. It doesn't always have to be in depth. Something as simple as "his 3 cone time at the combine aligns with what the pats like" or "Mike Lombardi signed/drafted him at Cleveland" would go a long way to filtering out some of noise that comes from idle speculation. Suggesting the pats go pickup a guy based on reputation or name recognition alone isn't really helpful. Exceptions would apply to a true blue chip player hitting the market but for fringe players (Knile Davis being just a recent example) I think we should put in a bit more thought.

You might not always have time to do research on why an available player could be a fit, buts that's fine. Just wait to post until you do. I'm confident that if a player who very obviously fills a need for the Pats becomes available then many people here will quickly pickup on it and it will get called out. There is no prize for being first here.

Just wanted to throw my two cents out there.
 

ShaneTrot

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I get the apprehension with Garoppolo. He did not move the team well against Carolina. That is no sin, Carolina has a fearsome defense. I want to see him play with Gronk and more than a few plays with Edelman. I am guessing Gronk running free will cure what ails Jimmy.
 

lambeau

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Many here think any RB is worth a look given present options. However, while LGBT sure can dance at the line, there are only three backs who exceed his career 4.6 Y/A--Jamaal Charles 5.5, AP 4.9, and Deangelo Williams 4.8.
I too anticipate Ronnie Hillman will be cut, but I think I would take a chance on Gaffney, for a rotational power running game. He hits the line decisively and hard, keeps driving, and falls forward. Unproven, but I like what we have.
 

Super Nomario

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Yeah, like I said, I don't actually think it would happen (because of everything invested into JimmyG up to this point), but Brissett has shown more this preseason than Garoppolo, and BB is all about guys earning their places on the team. It would be such a classic, polarizing BB move.
I disagree that Brissett has been better in the preseason. He was better on Friday - going against backups when Garoppolo had to play starters - but he was mediocre at best in the first two games. Garoppolo was coming off a terrific game two (16 of 21 for 181 and a TD). The idea of starting Brissett is not an overreaction to preseason performance; it's an overreaction to ONE preseason game.
 

DJnVa

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Am I crazy for thinking that somewhere in the back of his mind BB may be considering starting Brissett over Garoppolo?
Yes. Full Stop.

JG's preseason passer rating is 95.1 and he's compelted 66.7% of his passes. He struggled some against the Panthers, the defending NFC champ, in the preseason game that most mirrors regular season.

He hasn't thrown an INT and has been sacked once every 18 pass attempts, which is actually a better percentage than Brady last year. Jacoby's elusiveness (or whatever) has allowed him to be sacked once every 12 attempted--against 3rd stringers.
 
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NortheasternPJ

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He hasn't thrown an INT and has been sacked once every 18 pass attempts, which is actually a better percentage than Brady last year. Jacoby's elusiveness (or whatever) has allowed him to be sacked once every 12 attempted--against 3rd stringers.
I think JG has been fine, but throwing out your first argument as "hasn't thrown an INT" is not a good way to start. He's hit two defenders in the face mask on terrible throws.
 

lambeau

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With Malcolm Mitchell participating in passing drills today, he may on schedule to be active opening day--over 4 weeks from his 8/11 injury.
This could make Dobson expendable.