It was discussed in the sense that there was some idle speculation that concluded that it was unlikely to deserve more than idle speculation.
The September Callup Thread
- Thread starter Rasputin
- Start date
If Joe Kelly isn't called up before the "september callups", he can still be added to the 25 man playoff roster since he's played a significant amount of time on the 25 man squad throughout the year, right? It's guys that haven't sniffed the roster that need to get called up before september 1st to be eligible, yeah?
This is the purpose of Clay moving into a high leverage setup role. I don't agree with it but we'll see how it plays out.
You can check out the July/August minor league thread for my running commentary on Kopech's last start. He seems to have a perfectly good slider at this point, to go with perhaps the best fastball I've ever seen, it was really like watching Nolan Ryan in the mid 70s good. Just no chance; no one pulled the ball, even foul, in 7 innings. He could pitch in a major league bullpen with what he's got. Whether it's a good move all things considered, I'm not sure.
Let's put it less hyperbolically. Last year Lucas Giolito was at the ballpark next door to my house. I saw se weak of his starts. He has a very bright future. Michael Kopech right now is not playing the same game that Lucas Gioliito was playing at this time last year. He's that much better.
Let's put it less hyperbolically. Last year Lucas Giolito was at the ballpark next door to my house. I saw se weak of his starts. He has a very bright future. Michael Kopech right now is not playing the same game that Lucas Gioliito was playing at this time last year. He's that much better.
Workman has been busy at AA getting lit up like a Christmas tree, probably out of the running for a September role with the Sox.
Elias, Hembree, and Kelly are locks.
I suspect Noe Ramirez will also get the call, but I'm more curious in seeing if one of Martin, Shepherd or Scott could help out.
Kopech would be a gutsy move. If that idea is crossing DD's mind, Kopech should go up to AAA and pitch a few games in relief over the next week.
Elias, Hembree, and Kelly are locks.
I suspect Noe Ramirez will also get the call, but I'm more curious in seeing if one of Martin, Shepherd or Scott could help out.
Kopech would be a gutsy move. If that idea is crossing DD's mind, Kopech should go up to AAA and pitch a few games in relief over the next week.
Last edited:
I had this chat with a couple of friends yesterday. One said NO WAY, the other said WHY NOT.
Yes, a really analytical conversation.
He's not currently walking a lot of guys, so he can apparently throw strikes.
Question would be if those strikes catch too much of the plate that Major league guys will tattoo him, even at 100+ mph.
What are the roster implications? Is it too early for Kopech to need protecting this offseason?
And are there others who do need protection so eating that 40 man slot early becomes problematic?
I agree though, would be gutsy.
I think Scott deserves a look over Ramirez at this point. Shepherd's lack of K's would concern me, without more context, though he did have 4 in 3 innings tonight.
It would mean spending option years to send him to AA and AAA which means they only have one option year after that. He'd have a very short time on the shuttle.
I'm not sure how you're coming to that conclusion. If he stayed up in the majors through the end of the year, he wouldn't burn any and would have 3 left. I'm not sure how you have eliminated the second one, let alone the first. Maybe I'm missing something.
It's possible I'm misunderstanding the rules, but I got there by assuming he'd spend a year in AA in 2017 and at least start the year in AAA in 2018 requiring an option each year. He could come up next year and stay or he could come up in 2018 and stay, but if not, he only has 2018 and 2019 on the shuttle before we have to make a fish or cut bait decision in 2020. A lot of people ride the shuttle a lot longer.
You dont even need the injury replacement anymore. The rules were changed so its just anyone on the 40. I think the "replace an injured guy with anyone in the organization" thing is still there, but its not necessary any more. so Kelly is automatically eligible. Castillo and Craig, however . . . . . .
You're right, Shepherd isn't happening. Just took a look and he has really struggled the last few weeks. His first 4 months at Portland/Pawtucket were encouraging, but he needs another year.
Robby Scott on the other hand has started 6 games this year (so could pitch multiple innings), been consistently good all year, and pitched well recently.
Sox continue their grueling 2nd half road schedule with a West Coast swing on Sept. 2. So count me in on draining the farm during the first week of Sept. (Pawtucket season ends Sept. 5th/ SD series starts Sept. 5th). I'd like to see Farrell limit the number of at bats from: catchers not named Leon and Pitchers in the San Diego series.
Call up:
Elias, Kelly, Hembree, Scott.
Vasquez, Deven Marrero, and Brentz. Maybe 1 of Chris Marrero or Ryan LaMarre.
Wish we had a Berry/Roberts burner coming up, would love to see DD go grab one.
Options only get burned when a player gets sent down to the minors from the majors. Call ups have nothing to do with it.
Well .. They DO have a Berry / Roberts type already in Yoan Moncada. I assume they would have to add him to the 40man roster this winter anyways? So calling him up now wouldn't burn an option.
As for Kopech .. I believe PP is correct (I made the same mistake as Ras in regards to Owens) .. So I think that's a viable option. In this case Kopech's mental development would be the main driver as he's likely to absorb a pounding or two.
As for Kopech .. I believe PP is correct (I made the same mistake as Ras in regards to Owens) .. So I think that's a viable option. In this case Kopech's mental development would be the main driver as he's likely to absorb a pounding or two.
I wouldn't spend any time arguing for Kopech, I don't feel that strongly about him being called up, but as others have mentioned, technically no options are burnt if you are not sent down.
Think of Joe Kelly. He had two options left(3?) when the Sox got him because Stl had not optioned him back to the minors during the season. So he could be optioned last year and this year.
Calling Kopech up then sending him to AA next year means he has 3 options left.
Funny enough though, they could call him up this year, then they could call him up next year in the same relief role without ever burning an option. Not even sure Sept call ups accrue service time.
My larger question was whether giving him a 40 man spot now means you leave another 5th yr player exposed to the rule 5 draft. I don't think Kopech is at the point where he needs to be protected.
You can't get to the majors without being called up.
Are you telling me that if a guy gets added to the 40 man roster in September, and the guy plays at the major league level, that sending him to AA the next year doesn't burn an option? And is it different if he is called up now and put on the 25 man roster?
Edit--
This (http://sonsofsamhorn.com/baseball/baseball-101/glossary/sosh-glossary-mlb-options/) appears to agree with me.
Kopech gets called up either now or in September, it requires an option year to get him back to the minors in 2017 and another one in 2018.
Sure, maybe he doesn't need to go back to the minors, but if we're calling him up now it's to use him in the bullpen and we'd want his development to continue as a starter so most likely he's going back.
So picture it, it's 2019 and Kopech has had decent success in AA and AAA and has had a few starts at the major league level and has done okay, but he doesn't make the club out of spring training, burning his third option. He's the 6th starter and goes up and down several times with injuries and so forth.
Come 2020, he has no options left and has to make it with the big club or be exposed to waivers.
If you don't call him up now, that's delayed by at least a year, maybe two.
Last edited:
That's how it works, yes. Only if you are called up and sent down during the same active season does it burn an option. Sending them down during the offseason or at the end of spring traing also does not burn an option if they were on the 25 man the previous year.
I haven't heard it speculated here yet,
But it wouldn't surprise me that the Sox are keeping Kelly down this long to get the extra year of control. I haven't been able to get an accurate tally of his service time to corroborate it though.
I haven't heard it speculated here yet,
But it wouldn't surprise me that the Sox are keeping Kelly down this long to get the extra year of control. I haven't been able to get an accurate tally of his service time to corroborate it though.
Last edited:
Do you have a source to back that up? I've been looking and the only reference I can find to optioning a guy at the end of spring training is this:
And it disagrees with you. Now that's not an official source, nor is it a nationally recognized expert. The link is here (http://riveraveblues.com/2009/05/understanding-option-years-12285/)
If you're right then there is literally zero argument for not bringing Yoan Moncada up on 9/1 to audition him as a post season pinch runner, and really the only reason not to bring Kopech up is that you don't think he'll be able to get the job done, which is a perfectly reasonable opinion, but kind of pales in light of the fact that there are going to be useless innings in the remaining 34 games.
Edit--
See also this (http://soxprospects.com/transactions.htm) and scroll down to the March 2016 portion, and you'll see the word "optioned" used a lot. The Soxprospects.com guys might not be professional or official sources, but they care about this stuff a lot.
Another Edit--The list of March 2016 optionees includes Marco Hernandez who was not added to the major league roster until November of 2015, and while his player page (http://soxprospects.com/players/hernandez-marco.htm) indicates zero options have been used, he's been up and down several times so we know it's not current info.
Mind you, in all of this, I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want to know what's right.
Last edited:
I'd appreciate it if you could find it. I've just been looking through the CBA and can't find anything like it.
The CBA is online, but not linkable, you have to download it. (or maybe somebody knows where its posted?)
I was actually wrong, if you option a player in spring training, it burns an option, but that must just be procedural, as you can option them at the end of the year.
There's that specific date after the WS ends where you have to clear your roster of 60 day DL guys, determine who gets added to the 40 man and/or who gets released.
This is the date you square things up and add who you might need to protect from the Rule 5 draft.
I also forgot that you can be optioned during the year without burning an option as long as its shorter than 20 days - Page 82 of the CBA
"E. Optional Assignments
If a Player is optionally assigned for a total of less than 20 days in one championship season, such optional assignment(s) shall not count as an optional assignment in connection with the limitation upon optional assignments provided for in Major League Rule 11(c). (See Article XXI(B).)"
Last edited:
This is wrong. First, there is no sending down in the off-season...there is only the 40-man roster and the organizational roster (where all the guys who aren't on the 40-man reside). If a player is on the 40-man, he's on the 40-man, period.
For players on the 40-man roster during the season (Opening Day to Sept 1), one can be on the 25-man big league roster, on the disabled list, or on optional assignment to the minors. If a player is on optional assignment to the minors for a minimum of 20 days, he "burns" an option for that year. Doesn't matter when he was sent down (before Opening day or after) or if he spends a day on the 25-man roster during the year. The mere fact that he is off the 25-man roster is what is considered using an option.
So Ras has it dead right. If Kopech is called up now, it will cost an option each year he spends in the minors going forward. There is zero chance that they add him this year.
One question though.. If we call him up now and next year he spends exactly 19 days in the minors then he does not burn an option right? Just want to be absolutely clear about this. Sorry for the confusion.
Yes.
But considering they most likely want him to continue to develop as a starter, there's very little chance they'll have room or need for him on the big league roster at all. Even if they see him as a future reliever, he still needs to develop a reliable second pitch, if not a third. He's not doing that on the big league roster.
He has a reliable second pitch. Anyone saying he doesn't hasn't watched him lately. Those folks, like the Keith Law chat outtake above, are just parroting what they wrote last offseason.
They have access to an in his prime version of Daniel Bard for this offseason. If they choose not to use that weapon because they want to see if he can develop a third pitch before 2020, well, there's a word for that.
There also nothing preventing him from relieving for a couple years and developing a third pitch in his side sessions and spring training, like Derek Lowe did.
But then the question is whether Kopech is likely to be called up sometime in 2017, anyway. If the answer is yes, then it's the same option being burned either way, right?
I think future concerns over any call up carry some weight, as they should. However, I am not sure people understand the "Win Now" desire of the owner in Big Papis last season.
" John Henry can think of only one way to describe what it would mean if the Red Sox miss the playoffs in David Ortiz’ final season.
“Given his track record in the postseason,” the Sox’ principal owner said last night, “it would be a disaster.”"
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/red_sox/2016/01/henry_red_sox_need_to_send_david_ortiz_out_a_winner
If Kopech and Moncada can help that happen, and both look like they could be ready in 2017/2018, then they should be called up. I'll leave it to the experts to decide if they could help since I don't watch many minor league games, but the numbers suggest they might.
" John Henry can think of only one way to describe what it would mean if the Red Sox miss the playoffs in David Ortiz’ final season.
“Given his track record in the postseason,” the Sox’ principal owner said last night, “it would be a disaster.”"
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/red_sox/2016/01/henry_red_sox_need_to_send_david_ortiz_out_a_winner
If Kopech and Moncada can help that happen, and both look like they could be ready in 2017/2018, then they should be called up. I'll leave it to the experts to decide if they could help since I don't watch many minor league games, but the numbers suggest they might.
I suppose that is true, i can't find anything to refute it.
I'd swear i've read where 40 man guys staying in the minors all year didn't burn an option but it seems thats not right.
So they really can't take a chance with Kopech. If they added him they get
17/18/19 as options and while he might be up by then, thats barring any injury or setbacks. Maybe next year.
Apparently, yes, THIS is true. But who knows if he's ready next year,
or who makes him mad enough to deck, or what banned substance he may or may not take. I suppose you ride this guy very cautiously.
If you can get them off the 40 man you can avoid burning options, but that generally requires clearing waivers of some sort. Not likely for an actual prospect rather than fringe player.
That i did know.
Rusney won't be burning options thanks to that part of it.
Of course after tonight's bullpen embarrassment, maybe you roll the dice with Kopech. If he doesn't work out as a starter, you only have Kimbrel for another 2 years. Maybe they need a fireballing closer in 2019. I could be happy seeing a 9th inning 105mph high and tight fastball to future hall of fame lock Gary Sanchez.
Rusney won't be burning options thanks to that part of it.
Of course after tonight's bullpen embarrassment, maybe you roll the dice with Kopech. If he doesn't work out as a starter, you only have Kimbrel for another 2 years. Maybe they need a fireballing closer in 2019. I could be happy seeing a 9th inning 105mph high and tight fastball to future hall of fame lock Gary Sanchez.
Not if they call him up towards the end of 2017 and he stays up the rest of the season.
Oh, you're cute. You went to a minor league game and saw him strike out a bunch of teenagers and all of a sudden you know more than people that are paid professionals.
I know you don't like Law because he dared say something skeptical about Pedroia once but he's not parroting what he said last offseason. He's making a far more educated assessment of a prospect - from personal observation and crowd sourcing of professional scouts and prospect guys - than you're capable of making. That's not even up for debate. It's simply fact. His secondary pitches may work at single A but he is in no way shape or form Daniel Bard right now. Sorry man.
As to the question of options, we just went through this when talking about Owens in another thread and someone posted backup that since he finished the season on the roster last season he did not burn an option. I'm not in front of a laptop but will try to find it.
Rumor has it, this is excellent life advice. Trust Ras, he knows whereof he spaketh.
Most of this option talk is a bit ridiculous. If Kopech and/or Moncada are anything like the prospects we think they are, they probably aren't going to need those options. The problem is the probably. Kopech comes up now, does okay, maybe even makes it onto the playoff roster and helps us win a post season game or two. Fantastic.
Then he goes back to AA and uses an option, he goes up to AAA at the end of the season and starts 2018 in AAA and makes a few major league starts.
And he starts 2019 in the bigs and struggles mightily. He goes back down, does well, starts 2020 in the big club and struggles not a ton, but he's definitely not one of the top six starters in the organization. At that point, you have to either keep him in the rotation, turn him into a reliever at the major league level, or expose him to other teams even though you think he has a good career ahead of him.
Which is to say there's at least a five or six percent chance that calling him up now costs you essentially his whole career. Is it worth it? Maybe, if you win the World Series and you're an organization that desperately needs it.
And now, I get to type some words that would make 18 year old me giggle--and believe me, I didn't giggle at 18.
The Red Sox are not an organization that desperately needs to win the World Series. Literally every single other team in the division would be classified as more desperate to win the World Series than the Red Sox.
I think what's interesting is that despite the similarities, the situation with Yoan Moncada is entirely different. He's had a big chunk of a season at AA and done pretty well overall so he's at least a year closer to being major league ready than Kopech. He's a better prospect than Kopech so he has more of a chance of sticking in the bigs sooner. He's got a specific skill that is likely to translate well and could very easily make the difference in a game or two down the stretch.
I'd be very surprised if Kopech gets the call and very surprised if Moncada doesn't.
I think Moncada and Kopech are completely different. Moncada is here to stay in 17, maybe 18 at the latest IMO. Kopech has a lot of development to be done on secondary pitches. As a pitcher he's also a higher injury risk. He also has had some maturity issues. You need to save those options in case they are needed down the road because of injury in particular. Edro is the perfect example this season of why.
The Angels actually released Quintin Berry from a minor league deal about a week ago. If they, or any team, signed him, or any free agent, on the 31st, could they add him to their expanded roster on Sept.1st, and still have him be postseason eligible as an injury replacement without having to demote anyone for the 25 man spot?
Sorry, it just occurred to me that a team could sign him to a minor league deal, assuming he's willing to take it knowing it's only going to be a minor league deal for a day.
Sorry, it just occurred to me that a team could sign him to a minor league deal, assuming he's willing to take it knowing it's only going to be a minor league deal for a day.
Last edited:
No, I'm listening to Brian Bannister and Paul Abbott, the current major league and minor league pitching coaches he's working with, and former major league pitchers.
7/29 -- "He was throwing a curveball last year but he's transitioned into more of a slider this year," Bannister said. "He's throwing it anywhere from 88-91 mph. So he's a talented kid with a bright future and he's as athletic as any pitcher you'll ever see. There's not many guys who throw it harder or spin it faster."
8/19 -- "He's getting a lot more consistent with having an overpowering fastball," Salem pitching coach Paul Abbott said. "His command, his location is getting a lot better, his confidence is growing and he's just evolving as a pitcher as he's logging innings. He's got a better balance, a better delivery, better direction and the results are showing it. It's really showing in the slider, which he's incorporating well and it's become a true weapon."
8/24 -- "He can dominate with his fastball. It's got exceptional late life through the zone, but his slider has really picked up with his feel and conviction," Abbott said. "He's starting to learn how to use his slider as a wipeout pitch, and it's really coming along fast. It's just a true weapon, to give him something else to go to besides his fastball. He's got two devastating weapons."
But if you want to put more stock in what's said by a glorified blogger trying to cover all 30 teams at the same time, be my guest.
Those quotes above are followed by statements that Kopech has a lot of work to do to incorporate a changeup, so it is certainly true that calling him up and putting him in the bullpen could delay his development as a starter. As someone else posted above, that might be a stronger consideration if David Ortiz were nearer to his prime rather than 1 or hopefully 2 months from retirement. People who think losing his bat isn't going to be a 5 win setback or that you're going to buy those 5 wins somewhere else for only $16 million short-term salary like they have over the past 3 seasons are dreaming (to get into why squandering the 2014-15 seasons was worse than people think). Hitch up the britches and let's get all hands and 105 mph fastballs on deck here.
There is a much better baseball reason to leave Kopech in Salem until he is dispatched to the Arizona Fall League after the World Series:
He has a million dollar arm and a ten cent head.
Argue all you'd like about how wonderful that million dollar arm is, and how it might play in Boston... just know it ain't happening. And it ain't happening because he has a ten cent head. The million dollar arm is gonna still be worth a million dollars in the spring. And maybe, by then, the organization will be somewhat satisfied that the guy has matured enough to cope with life in the big leagues. Right now? In the heat of a pennant race? At the end of a season where he LITERALLY did the one thing a pitcher cannot ever do? No... he's not coming to Boston unless he buys a ticket and sits in the bleachers.
It would be borderline organizational malfeasance to promote this stupid kid after his minor league track record - not the six-odd unhittable weeks in July and August: Kopech's entire minor league track record must be considered when contemplating a promotion. And anyone arguing he deserves to be in Boston is at best, reckless. He's still a kid. Rewarding him with a promotion now sends every wrong message in the history of wrong messages.
Baseball is full of guys with 10 cent heads, it's not a valid argument. If he has the talent to pitch in the bigs is the only thing that matters. I would say he isn't ready yet.
And if it helps win a World Series with a team that is a bullpen short of dominant, who gives a shit. As was said 2 posts or so above, there's no guarantee at all that the million dollar arm will still be there next spring. Use it while it's available. And especially because he hasn't been taxed all season and has plenty of bullets left. He had a fight with a teammate and got unlucky enough to break his hand. Oh my. That's never happened before in history. And we never got the full story; maybe he was legitimately provoked.
You're jumping to conclusions dude.
You're jumping to conclusions dude.
but he had the suspension too, which clearly makes him a 10 cent head. Being suspended for PED use has never happened either.
If Kopech was in AA I think the pro-callup guys would have a better argument. Him dominating high A is great, but there are some significant jumps between A+ and pro ball.
Sounds like the Judge and Jury are in.
Lighten' up Francis
You're light on details on a fight between 20 yr old room mates and you're labelling him already? It may be an isolated incident. I haven't read anywhere that he is moping around or being disruptive. Sounds like he apologized to his team mates, conditioned himself while his injury healed, worked on his pitching mechanics in Florida and came out strong.
Its a very, VERY long shot that he gets called up this year BUT if he did I doubt this "sends every wrong message in the history of wrong messages".
There is nothing wrong with second chances and redemption.
Last edited:
None of you understood that turn of phrase as a Bull Durham reference?
Let's start at the beginning: First, he missed a large chunk of development time by getting caught using PEDs. That's a youthful indiscretion that can be written off - assuming it is a one-time fuck up. Everyone gets to make a mistake.
Then fucks up again: he misses a large chunk of this season breaking his pitching hand in a fight with a teammate.
So, not only does he make a second mistake - which indicates he might have some personal development needed before he "makes it to the show" ... he hits a teammate with his pitching hand – that is literally the worst thing a pitcher can do. Plus, he throws ungodly heat. I don't know if he wears a garter belt under his uniform - and if that helps him breathe out of his third eye, I'm all for it - but I'm totally comfortable making a couple Bull Durham jokes about Kopech.
I also have no trouble saying he shouldn't be rewarded with a promotion to the big leagues because this is a kid who is obviously talented, and obviously needs to get his shit together. Two big mistakes in two years deserves to be weighed heavily. And yeah, it sends the wrong message to a kid who keeps fucking up that 6 weeks of throwing ungoldly heat in the Carolina League earns you a call up.
If they release the veteran catcher, will that connect the dots anymore for y'all?
