Pitching Targets

Boggs26

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Sale is obviously the no-doubt upgrade, but I read that article too and couldn't agree more. Wins are wins no matter where you get them from, and he is also a stud defender. Leon can go nowhere but down the rest of the way, so maybe you counteract his regression with adding Lucroy. And I don't think Lucroy nets the Brewers Benintendi (who can possibly also help the team this year, which I haven't heard mentioned as a reason against trading him yet) or Moncada.
This is an interesting twist, especially when it comes to those looking to upgrade LF. If the scouts think Benintendi is playing as well as his stats seem to indicate isn't it worth giving him a shot before possibly trading him for an upgrade elsewhere? I know it would start the service clock ticking, but he'll almost certainly make the team at some point next year anyway (probably this year when rosters expand) so it isn't like they're actually losing much. It's possible he comes up and plays as well as JBJ did, on the other hand he might come up and play as badly as JBJ did. But it seems to be worth a shot at this point.
 

IpswichSox

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I know this is easy to say after a pretty crappy home stand, but Olney on his blog this morning summarizes where my head is at on the potential for additional moves:

After acquiring Price, Kimbrel, Pomeranz and Ziegler, should the Sox sacrifice more prospects to get additional pieces?
"No, it seems like the fate of the 2016 Red Sox should come down to this: The players on their stacked roster need to perform better....The Red Sox have made four moves this season, after landing the most expensive starter and closer last winter. If Boston can't get it done despite all of that, nobody should put this on Cherington or president of baseball operations Dave Dombrowski or GM Mike Hazen or the Red Sox ownership. It's up to the players now."
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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Interesting omission of certain non-players there by Olney.

Even Mike Hazen gets a nod, although nobody ever talks about him.

But the coaching staff?

Crickets.
 

Minneapolis Millers

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I know this is easy to say after a pretty crappy home stand, but Olney on his blog this morning summarizes where my head is at on the potential for additional moves:

After acquiring Price, Kimbrel, Pomeranz and Ziegler, should the Sox sacrifice more prospects to get additional pieces?...
Ha! Olney's quote is almost exactly what I said waaay back in post #1168. I think you keep kicking the tires, because you never know if some team loves one of your moveable pieces. But yeah, the front office has done its work; onfield (and, yes, dugout) personnel need to step up.
 

FanSinceBoggs

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According to MLB Rumors, a team can acquire W.Davis at a reduced cost (in terms of prospects) if that team is willing to take on I.Kennedy's contract.

Very tempting. The Red Sox don't have a spot for Kennedy and so they would need to trade Kennedy and money to another team for a bag of balls. Kennedy has some value, it's not like the Red Sox would have to pay off the entire contract to move him but they would need to pay off a significant portion of the contract.

Of course, thanks to Ben Cherrington, the Red Sox have so much dead money locked in players like Castillo, Craig, and Sandoval that they probably aren't willing to do this.
 

keninten

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Nov 24, 2005
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As far as getting Sale or even Quintana. We already have 3 lefties in the rotation (Price, Pomeranz, Rodriquez) with 3 more on the farm (Owens, Johnson, Elias). A good pitcher is a good pitcher so it may not matter but adding another southpaw at Fenway does seem a bit much. In the early 80`s we had Hurst, Ojeda, and Tudor and I remember it being talked about alot more.
 

soxhop411

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Why Red Sox say they can sit out trade deadline

When the Red Sox beat the Twins last week 13-2 – their third straight win, keeping them a half-game up in first place in the AL East – Boston president of baseball operations Dave Dombrowski believed it was an ignition switch. His gut told him his team was about to take off.

The Red Sox followed with losses in five of their next six games and fell to the second wild-card – one game up on the Astros, 2 1/2 on the Tigers and four on the Yankees.

“I have been a little surprised,” Dombrowski said about not taking off, especially after being the most aggressive July buyer — getting Brad Ziegler, Aaron Hill and Drew Pomeranz — to add to an offseason spree for David Price, Craig Kimbrel, Carson Smith (out for the year) and Chris Young (the outfielder).

Dombrowski said he will listen through Monday’s trade deadline, but believes his shopping is over. And he also continues to believe the team is poised to – finally – take off. The big reason he feels that way is the addition of Pomeranz and the improved performance of Eduardo Rodriguez, joining David Price, Rick Porcello and Steven Wright, have “given us five starters with a chance to win and that is big.”

In addition, Dombrowski said the plan is to have Kimbrel (on the DL) throw a rehab inning Saturday and be activated Monday. He believes that putting Ziegler into the eighth inning with Kimbrel in the ninth will bring stability. Also, Dombrowski said, “Our offense is as good as anyone in baseball.” The Red Sox have scored 54 runs more than any team, 74 more than any other AL team.

“We are in a nice position [with the trade deadline] to just see what is out there, but now that we don’t feel like we need a starting pitcher we feel we don’t have any [big needs],” Dombrowski said.
http://nypost.com/2016/07/28/why-red-sox-say-they-can-sit-out-trade-deadline/
 

FanSinceBoggs

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That was a terrible piece.

If you have the chance to get the best pitcher in the AL on a team friendly contract you don't say "Well the rotation is pretty good."

I suppose the line I would draw in the sand in Moncada. But if it took Devers, Benintendi, ERod, and Kopech I would be packing their bags as we speak.
That's too much to give up. I guess it depends on a person's opinion on Sale. To be sure, Sale is great, but I don't like his violent delivery and thus have doubts about his chances of sustaining long term success. Three years from now, Sale could experience shoulder issues and declining velocity. Three years from now Benintendi could win a batting title and Rodriguez could make an All Star game. In that scenario, the deal doesn't look so prudent for the Red Sox. If Sale had a cleaner delivery I would feel better about acquiring him.

I like Buchanan's point on Rodriguez. If the Red Sox included Rodriguez in a trade for Sale, they would probably be selling low--the White Sox might not be willing to give full value for Rodriguez based on his struggles this season.
 

E5 Yaz

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That's too much to give up. I guess it depends on a person's opinion on Sale. To be sure, Sale is great, but I don't like his violent delivery and thus have doubts about his chances of sustaining long term success. Three years from now, Sale could experience shoulder issues and declining velocity.
He's pitched parts of seven years in the majors without an injury, which seems fairly long-term at this point.

Three years from now, Sale's contract can be bought out for a $1M option
 

Tyrone Biggums

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The way the last few days have gone I feel like I wouldn't be opposed to this team testing the market if any exists on Taz. Maybe work towards getting another reliever on the cheap that has more years of team control.
 

ookami7m

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bobesox

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I would hope DD would say he is not shopping. Even if he is. Telling the truth around the trade deadline is generally not the best strategy.
 

YTF

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As far as getting Sale or even Quintana. We already have 3 lefties in the rotation (Price, Pomeranz, Rodriquez) with 3 more on the farm (Owens, Johnson, Elias). A good pitcher is a good pitcher so it may not matter but adding another southpaw at Fenway does seem a bit much. In the early 80`s we had Hurst, Ojeda, and Tudor and I remember it being talked about alot more.
It's always been my way of thinking that Rodriquez might be offered in return for Sale or Quintana.
 

Hee Sox Choi

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Daniel Hudson threw 5x over 6 days and has been terrible since. He has gone from dominant to getting pummeled in almost every appearance since then. He's had 2 TJs so I'm not sure I'd touch him.
 

Sampo Gida

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As far as getting Sale or even Quintana. We already have 3 lefties in the rotation (Price, Pomeranz, Rodriquez) with 3 more on the farm (Owens, Johnson, Elias). A good pitcher is a good pitcher so it may not matter but adding another southpaw at Fenway does seem a bit much. In the early 80`s we had Hurst, Ojeda, and Tudor and I remember it being talked about alot more.
Yeah, its not ideal, although I imagine E-Rod and 1-2 of those southpaws DOTF are part of any package. I suspect Rich Hill is more likely than Sale or Quintanna since I doubt DD wants to part with a Moncada or Benintendi, but its also likely we end up with nothing

The big difference between the early 80's and now is Fenway is less of a HR haven today than it was then due to all the hardware up top that blocks the jet stream out to LF, and now actually suppresses HR's , albeit at the expense of doubles. Also, a much higher K rate today means fewer balls in play. So a lefty with a high K rate can do quite well in Fenway which was not the case before the mid -late 80's
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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I'd check in on Sonny Gray at this point. Certainly can't hurt.
Except in the sense that the rotation would get worse by adding him and bumping one of Eduardo Rodriguez or Steven Wright. For a pitcher who has never had terribly inspiring peripherals, it's not surprising that he's suddenly no longer getting elite results.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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Except in the sense that the rotation would get worse by adding him and bumping one of Eduardo Rodriguez or Steven Wright. For a pitcher who has never had terribly inspiring peripherals, it's not surprising that he's suddenly no longer getting elite results.
It could be for a few reasons. Pressure put on himself to be the #1 maybe? Coaching? The fact he's the whole team in Oakland up until this year? I have no clue. But if you can get him at a reasonable price it's something you have to really look at.

On the other hand I think this team can get something decent for Clay. Did you see what the Marlins just traded for Cashner? Good god.
 

YTF

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It could be for a few reasons. Pressure put on himself to be the #1 maybe? Coaching? The fact he's the whole team in Oakland up until this year? I have no clue. But if you can get him at a reasonable price it's something you have to really look at.

On the other hand I think this team can get something decent for Clay. Did you see what the Marlins just traded for Cashner? Good god.
I realise that you're just sort of thinking out loud and trying to figure out where Gray went south, but if there is anything to him putting to much pressure on himself, he's not going to fit in well here with all of the media scrutiny.
 

DanoooME

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It could be for a few reasons. Pressure put on himself to be the #1 maybe? Coaching? The fact he's the whole team in Oakland up until this year? I have no clue. But if you can get him at a reasonable price it's something you have to really look at.

On the other hand I think this team can get something decent for Clay. Did you see what the Marlins just traded for Cashner? Good god.
With the pitching market the way it is, there is NO WAY anyone is getting any decent pitching for any decent price. I haven't seen the full Cashner deal yet, but when the Braves pick up a good 2B prospect in Travis Demeritte (who slotted into their system as the #9 guy per MLB.com - and their system is pretty damn good) for two guys the Braves picked up off of waivers in May, the price of pitching is ridiculous. People need to stop thinking the Sox can pick up anyone useful without spending a) Moncada and/or Benintendi or b) 2 or 3 of the other top guys AT A MINIMUM.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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With the pitching market the way it is, there is NO WAY anyone is getting any decent pitching for any decent price. I haven't seen the full Cashner deal yet, but when the Braves pick up a good 2B prospect in Travis Demeritte (who slotted into their system as the #9 guy per MLB.com - and their system is pretty damn good) for two guys the Braves picked up off of waivers in May, the price of pitching is ridiculous. People need to stop thinking the Sox can pick up anyone useful without spending a) Moncada and/or Benintendi or b) 2 or 3 of the other top guys AT A MINIMUM.
I say that because Billy Beane is a different type of GM. As we saw with the Donaldson trade they have a different system in evaluating talent which does lead me to believe they could get away with offering a package headlined by Devers or Kopach and then a couple B-C level prospects.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Not sure why Gray's price would be any more affordable now than it was three months ago. He's still cheap and under team control for multiple years. The A's have zero reason to trade him unless they get something really good in return, and they lose nothing holding on to him and hoping he returns to form (and further increases his trade value in the process). The only hope is that Beane has an irrational obsession for a Red Sox prospect or two that no one else values as highly, and he loses his mind at the prospect of acquiring him. That seems as likely as unicorns being used to ferry relievers in from the bullpen.
 

bosockboy

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Most random thing ever, but I'm at a work event in LA (Costa Mesa), and I literally run into DD in my hotel. I'm sitting at the hotel Starbuck's, and he is sitting with Wren and Hazen discussing trades. This is absolutely surreal.
 

OptimusPapi

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Most random thing ever, but I'm at a work event in LA (Costa Mesa), and I literally run into DD in my hotel. I'm sitting at the hotel Starbuck's, and he is sitting with Wren and Hazen discussing trades. This is absolutely surreal.
This would be a better post if you actually picked up some info.
 

DJnVa

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For a pitcher who has never had terribly inspiring peripherals, it's not surprising that he's suddenly no longer getting elite results.
Sonny Gray's had a FIPs of 2.70, 3.46, and 3.45 the last 3 seasons, more than 7.3 K/9 each of them, and less than 1 HR/9--what exactly is the issue you see with his peripherals? He's always outperformed them, but there's nothing wrong with the numbers there if his stats equalized to them.
 

Green Monster

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Lol the tables are taken between us, can't exactly stand next to them. DD has taken 2-3 calls and walked away.
Can you read body language in anyway? Are they relaxed and smiling or engaged in a serious conversation like they are contemplating making a big decision??
 

Tyrone Biggums

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Definitely serious. I heard Jeffress a couple minutes ago.
Unless it's Buchholz going back in the deal I don't want him. Jeffress will cost a top prospect. Do not want Devers going back in a deal for him in a severe overpay.
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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Sonny Gray's had a FIPs of 2.70, 3.46, and 3.45 the last 3 seasons, more than 7.3 K/9 each of them, and less than 1 HR/9--what exactly is the issue you see with his peripherals? He's always outperformed them, but there's nothing wrong with the numbers there if his stats equalized to them.
The problem is those aren't elite numbers. And you conveniently left out his 4.73 this year. The perception with him is that he's an ace. He's not. He never has been. The cost for him will be built around that perception. He also pitches in Oakland, which is a big help in outperforming his peripherals. Put him in a less pitcher friendly park and what is going to happen?

That there is a poster above who thinks we could "get away with" just offering Devers and Kopech. That would be a terrible trade for the Red Sox if it was made. His K/BB is far from elite and his ability to suppress home runs is going to take a significant hit in Fenway if he's traded to the Red Sox. Dombrowski should be staying far far away from him.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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That there is a poster above who thinks we could "get away with" just offering Devers and Kopech. That would be a terrible trade for the Red Sox if it was made. His K/BB is far from elite and his ability to suppress home runs is going to take a significant hit in Fenway if he's traded to the Red Sox. Dombrowski should be staying far far away from him.
I never said Devers AND Kopech. I said Devers OR Kopech. He's still a good young talent and would immensely upgrade this staff. Yes he's been lucky to an extent but he's a top of the rotation guy who isn't even in his prime as of yet.
 

DJnVa

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The problem is those aren't elite numbers. And you conveniently left out his 4.73 this year. The perception with him is that he's an ace. He's not. He never has
I'm not talking about his perception or value and I didn't say they were elite. I was responding to you saying they "are not inspiring". I also didn't conveniently leave out this year--I was/am acknowledging that he has struggled some this year, but again, I was responding to you saying he has "never" had inspiring peripherals--that speaks to more than this season.

My question is not to start an argument--it's to ask what is wrong with a guy that had a career 133 ERA+ besides that you think others overvalue him. If the only issue is that you really think that others do have this incorrect perception then maybe we're just talking past each other.

But he'd be a decent pickup *if* the cost was right.
 

grimshaw

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Unless it's Buchholz going back in the deal I don't want him. Jeffress will cost a top prospect. Do not want Devers going back in a deal for him in a severe overpay.
It will and it would be stupid to pay for a guy who has had 20 of the best innings of his career over the past few months and who will be competing with Tazawa for 7th inning duty.
I mean his career WHIP entering this year is 1.44.