The Warriors' Roster with Durant

Kliq

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Challenges yes, but I think it is going to work better than a lot of people realize. I'm sure Durant realizes when he made his decision to go to GS that he probably wasn't going to see the ball nearly as much as he did in OKC and he is fine with that. Remember, Durant is probably one of the five best pure scorers in NBA history and he often didn't even take the most shots on his own team. In addition, what makes KDC so great is that not only are they great scorers, but they are so damn efficient. Each of them are capable of scoring 30 on 15 fga, and in theory at least they are going to get cleaner looks at the basket than they ever have before. This is a lot different than Miami with James/Wade/Bosh, two of whom really needed to ball in their hands for a while and attack the rim to be efficient.

Klay is interesting, but as DJBMH pointed out, he isn't nor has he ever really been forced to be a true alpha dog. He's probably going to shoot 50 percent from three and I think he will have his best shooting percentages across the board next year. A really underrated part of his game is his ability to cut-off the ball and to the hoop and with Durant (who has developed into a really good passer) drawing doubles even on the perimeter, he is going to be that much better around the rim.
 

nighthob

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You must have been asleep for the last 5 days.
I know, right? It's almost like all these hardcore basketball fans missed the fact that the Celtics did this exact same thing within the last decade and no one averaged 20 points per game. Of course that sort of sacrifice is a lot easier when you're in your mid 30s, your place in the HoF is already secure, and you're just looking for some rings while you're still a main cog.
 

zenter

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I know, right? It's almost like all these hardcore basketball fans missed the fact that the Celtics did this exact same thing within the last decade and no one averaged 20 points per game. Of course that sort of sacrifice is a lot easier when you're in your mid 30s, your place in the HoF is already secure, and you're just looking for some rings while you're still a main cog.
Point of information: no, they didn't. It's not the exact same thing. I know this is fully tangential to your point, but...

Of all the times putting a mega-core happened since 2005, the Cs path was the hardest/most fantastic. They transformed a couple picks, a few spare parts, and Al Jefferson into Ray Allen and KG. No free agents involved.

SA (until last year), GSW and OKC (until this year) did it the 2nd-hardest way - mainly draft with a few shrewd moves.
CLE sort of the middle path - draft + trades + LeBron wanting to play at home.
Miami and LAL tended to do it the easy way - free agency.

It's fine that there are so many ways to do this, but saying GSW did the exact same thing as the Cs really under-represents the degree of difficulty involved in 2007 maneuverings of Danny Ainge.

GSW took a team that is forever in the record books and then added the consensus 2nd-best-player in basketball via free agency. It's the easiest way to build a championship core - already be a championship team.
 

nighthob

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I'm not arguing with your math, but I just dont think it works that way. Because its not exactly the mentality of 'at the end of the season will I have the 1,400 shots I expect', its changing from shooting and touching the ball at the rate that you are accustomed to. Its getting each member of your top 5 lineup to accept a certain role to make that top 5 work and accept that less of the offense is going to run through them. In your top 5 lineup the FGA per 36 for that 5th wheel cant get any lower, not because the coach demands to get that guy a specific number of touches, but because that guy is forced to take a specific number of shots to keep opposing defenses honest & bail the team out when the shot clock is winding down.
A better way of looking at it is the usage rates, Curry was at 32.6% and Durant at 30.6% last year (for reference the "selfish" Russell Westbrook came in at 31.6). Klay came in at 26.3 and Draymont Green at 18.8. Those usage rates aren't sustainable.
 

nighthob

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Point of information: no, they didn't. It's not the exact same thing. I know this is fully tangential to your point, but...

Of all the times putting a mega-core happened since 2005, the Cs path was the hardest/most fantastic. They transformed a couple picks, a few spare parts, and Al Jefferson into Ray Allen and KG. No free agents involved.
As the discussion was concerning the on-floor dynamics I'm not sure what the acquisition method has to do with anything. The Celtics took two primary scorers and one secondary scorer and lined them up on the same team. The result was three guys, all of whom previously averaged 20+ p/g, that all averaged in the teens. But, given their ages and the fact that their places in basketball history were secure, the sacrifice was likely easier.

More telling by 2010 the Celtics were the 2017 Warriors with Rondo's ascension into high use player, and as we found out later the one basketball problem caused dissension in the clubhouse. The 2017 Warriors feature at least one guy whose place in history isn't secure, and is about to be relegated to an afterthought. It's going to end up being a problem sooner or later.
 

coremiller

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The Warriors' style helps mitigate some of the "there's only one ball" concerns. It's not like they're going to alternate running Durant and Curry ISOs while Klay stands in the corner doing nothing. The ball is going to move around a lot, they are going to run everyone off a bunch of screens, and whoever the defense chooses to leave open will take the shot.
 

johnmd20

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The Warriors' style helps mitigate some of the "there's only one ball" concerns. It's not like they're going to alternate running Durant and Curry ISOs while Klay stands in the corner doing nothing. The ball is going to move around a lot, they are going to run everyone off a bunch of screens, and whoever the defense chooses to leave open will take the shot.
That is true, but those usage rates are guaranteed to come down. It's impossible any other way. And we shall see how everyone does with sharing the shots a lot more than they all did in 2016.
 

Gunfighter 09

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Of all the times putting a mega-core happened since 2005.......Miami and LAL tended to do it the easy way - free agency.
Who were the free agents on the 2008-2013 Lakers?

Gasol, Odom, Ariza, Jordan Hill, Howard and Nash were all acquired via trade - The Howard and Nash trades are the ones that are fucking them over now in terms of draft picks.

Kobe, Bynum, Walton, Farmar and Vujacic were all drafted.

The only notable free agent starters were Steve Blake, MWP and Derek Fisher, who the Lakers had originally drafted.

The building of the championship Lakers and Celtics teams of that time period were remarkably similar, Kupchak just did it over ~2-3 seasons rather than in one summer like Ainge. When he tried to match Ainge's "build a champion in one summer" feat in 2012, it blew up in his face.
 

zenter

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Who were the free agents on the 2008-2013 Lakers?

Gasol, Odom, Ariza, Jordan Hill, Howard and Nash were all acquired via trade - The Howard and Nash trades are the ones that are fucking them over now in terms of draft picks.

Kobe, Bynum, Walton, Farmar and Vujacic were all drafted.

The only notable free agent starters were Steve Blake, MWP and Derek Fisher, who the Lakers had originally drafted.

The building of the championship Lakers and Celtics teams of that time period were remarkably similar, Kupchak just did it over ~2-3 seasons rather than in one summer like Ainge. When he tried to match Ainge's "build a champion in one summer" feat in 2012, it blew up in his face.
You're right. My bad.
 

Gunfighter 09

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So the "trade" is now:

KD - Zaza - West- for

Barnes - Bogut (w/ unknown knee status) - Festus


Two of those three spots are huge upgrades, and health is likely going to determine how much better Bogut is than Zaza next year.
 

Tangled Up In Red

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So the "trade" is now:

KD - Zaza - West- for

Barnes - Bogut (w/ unknown knee status) - Festus


Two of those three spots are huge upgrades, and health is likely going to determine how much better Bogut is than Zaza next year.
To be fair, you'd also have to include Barbosa, Speights and Ian Clark on the traded side of the ledger. But your point certainly stands.
 

Cellar-Door

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I now officially hope GS gets upset again. David West shamelessly chasing rings for half a decade and failing would be HILARIOUS.
 

wutang112878

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A better way of looking at it is the usage rates, Curry was at 32.6% and Durant at 30.6% last year (for reference the "selfish" Russell Westbrook came in at 31.6). Klay came in at 26.3 and Draymont Green at 18.8. Those usage rates aren't sustainable.
It brings us to just about the same numbers (14.7 = 30.6 - 15.9), but certainly makes the math easier than what I did. Each of the 'starting' lineups had the sacrificial lamb Bogut and Roberson. Roberson is also the perfect example of how even your 5th wheel has to take a certain number of shots. Teams were not daring him to shoot, teams were pleading with him to shoot in the playoffs.
PlayerUSG%
Russell Westbrook31.6
Kevin Durant30.6
Serge Ibaka17.6
Steven Adams12.6
Andre Roberson9.1
Total101.5
PlayerUSG% ▾
Stephen Curry32.6
Klay Thompson26.3
Draymond Green18.8
Harrison Barnes15.9
Andrew Bogut11.4
Total105
As a Reference
Andre Iguodala12.1
 

wutang112878

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The Warriors' style helps mitigate some of the "there's only one ball" concerns. It's not like they're going to alternate running Durant and Curry ISOs while Klay stands in the corner doing nothing. The ball is going to move around a lot, they are going to run everyone off a bunch of screens, and whoever the defense chooses to leave open will take the shot.
Yes and no. We can talk about the GS motion and movement all we want, but Curry absolutely dominates the ball at times and that will have to change very quickly. There are also certainly times when Thompson, even with Curry on the floor, goes and creates for himself or creates to help make a play for someone else. Durant is taking all of that away from Thompson because there is no way any coach should ever ask Curry and Durant to watch while Thompson makes some moves, and if Kerr is going to ask anyone else to create it would be asking Green to do something in the post so that compliments their lethal outside game. Thompson could really blow up this entire thing. As nighthob mentioned, an aging Ray Allen who was almost cooked felt disrespected and was sour enough that PP and KG didnt even call him when he was a FA and signed with Miami knowing full well that he wouldnt start there.
 

the moops

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I now officially hope GS gets upset again. David West shamelessly chasing rings for half a decade and failing would be HILARIOUS.
West only "shamelessly" chased a ring last year with San Antonio, when he turned down his 12 million dollar option. He certainly wasn't chasing a ring with Indiana when he signed in 2011, for the year before they were 37-45.
 

BigMike

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I hope in 15 years West doesn't regret how much money he's given up to chase a ring as a bench player.
AS he has already earned 87 million in his career, I would agree. I hope he doesn't regret the 10-20 million he turned down the last 2 years
 

mcpickl

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I know, right? It's almost like all these hardcore basketball fans missed the fact that the Celtics did this exact same thing within the last decade and no one averaged 20 points per game. Of course that sort of sacrifice is a lot easier when you're in your mid 30s, your place in the HoF is already secure, and you're just looking for some rings while you're still a main cog.
Didn't the Heat do the same thing just six years ago?

Year 1 Lebron averaged 26.7, Wade 25.5 and Bosh 18.7.
Year 2 Lebron 27.1, Wade 22.1, Bosh 18.0
Year 3 Lebron 26.8, Wade 21.2, Bosh 16.6
Year 4 Lebron 27.1, Wade 19.0, Bosh 16.2

Why can't KD, Curry and Klay do that?

Especially since Golden State plays a very fast pace and Miami played slower than league average?

You've been pushing that GS has to trade Klay for depth persistently because there won't be enough shots for the three of them.

They don't have to, and would be crazy to do so. It's a non-issue.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Didn't the Heat do the same thing just six years ago?

Year 1 Lebron averaged 26.7, Wade 25.5 and Bosh 18.7.
Year 2 Lebron 27.1, Wade 22.1, Bosh 18.0
Year 3 Lebron 26.8, Wade 21.2, Bosh 16.6
Year 4 Lebron 27.1, Wade 19.0, Bosh 16.2

Why can't KD, Curry and Klay do that?

Especially since Golden State plays a very fast pace and Miami played slower than league average?

You've been pushing that GS has to trade Klay for depth persistently because there won't be enough shots for the three of them.

They don't have to, and would be crazy to do so. It's a non-issue.
To be fair, it may be an issue but that remains to be seen. At present, we simply know that all of these guys are going into this knowing that adding Durant means spreading the ball around more. Yet they all trekked out to the Hamptons to spend Friday night convincing him to join their cause. And if some reports are to be believed Durant was frustrated with Westbrook's iso-heavy offensive approach. He clearly has to know that while he won't get much of that in Golden State, the trade off is that he will get fewer looks.

Finally, I will take the other side of nighthob's trade here - I think there is a scenario where Klay Thompson enjoys some of the best shooting numbers of his career. Curry has a proven track record of feeding him when he is hot and you have to believe that KD and Curry will likely draw the most defensive attention given their respective skill sets. Its not hard to see Durant feeding Thompson too when easy looks aren't there. In fact, that has to be a big part of the plan right now.
 

AMS25

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I love all these legacy mercenaries coming out of the woodwork to play with the Warriors. They have no history with Golden State and its development; they just want their ring.

Will getting a ring really cement David West's "legacy"? Every time the Red Sox play Tampa Bay these days, I can't help but remember that Manager Kevin Cash has a ring from 2007. But no one thinks of Kevin Cash as an all-time great because of it.
 

DJnVa

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I love all these legacy mercenaries coming out of the woodwork to play with the Warriors. They have no history with Golden State and its development; they just want their ring.

Will getting a ring really cement David West's "legacy"? Every time the Red Sox play Tampa Bay these days, I can't help but remember that Manager Kevin Cash has a ring from 2007. But no one thinks of Kevin Cash as an all-time great because of it.
It's not supposed to matter to you. It matters to them.
 

Sam Ray Not

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The Splash Grandfather!

Seriously, agreed. The final piece the team needs is a long, athletic rim protector. Zaza and West is an obscenely good haul for a capped-out team*, but they're both savvy, skilled, below-the-rim types. Assuming they can't re-sign Ezeli, they need a legit backup C with size who can run the floor, block shots, board, and not be completely overmatched physically by the likes of DJ, Drummond, Davis and Towns. Possibilities still lurking out there include DeWayne Dedmon, old friend Ekpe Udoh (who apparently tore up Turkey last season), and the ultimate golden unicorn: Larry Sanders.

*according to this guy's system, Zaza and West have been the two best value signings of the entire NBA offseason to date, with #3 being that Durant guy.

 

Tangled Up In Red

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Andy's back on a one year deal. So behind Pachulia, you have West and Varejao (and JMM), plus the hopeful emergence of a Looney or Jones. They're amassing some decent (in quality) depth after losing Bogut, Ezeli and Speights.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Andy's back on a one year deal. So behind Pachulia, you have West and Varejao (and JMM), plus the hopeful emergence of a Looney or Jones. They're amassing some decent (in quality) depth after losing Bogut, Ezeli and Speights.
This is an honest question because I didn't follow the NBA crazy close last year and just looking at stat lines, what is Vareajo really offering for quality depth at this point? He's always had health problems and averaged five minutes a game for them last year. I understand he's a cheap vet but other than disposable fouls and a five minute breather I don't see him as very valuable relatively.
 

BigMike

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This is an honest question because I didn't follow the NBA crazy close last year and just looking at stat lines, what is Vareajo really offering for quality depth at this point? He's always had health problems and averaged five minutes a game for them last year. I understand he's a cheap vet but other than disposable fouls and a five minute breather I don't see him as very valuable relatively.
I would assume he is a well liked veteran; although, not sure GS needs leadership at this point.

Having guys like this doesn't matter much in game 13 against Memphis with a full roster, but they are great to have around if a couple guys are hurt during a conference finals matchup
 

Erik Hanson's Hook

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The 2017 Warriors feature at least one guy whose place in history isn't secure, and is about to be relegated to an afterthought. It's going to end up being a problem sooner or later.
Are you honestly worried about the HOF or "place-in-history" aspirations of a 26-year-old Klay Thompsom / Draymond Green? In contrast to their feelings about playing on potentially the greatest team of all time?

I feel like, for this year at least, KT and DG aren't going to care all that much about their touches. They just don't seem like those types of guys (I could be wrong). They are going to want to go down in the record books. Especially after a Finals loss.

Don't get me wrong: I'll be rooting against them the whole time ;)

Edit: I do agree that a lack of depth and quality bigs could hurt them. But if everyone stays healthy...man, this could be some kinda show.
 
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HomeRunBaker

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As if the Warriors needed more reasons to be must-see tv this winter........they signed JaVale McGee to a non-guaranteed deal to win a job in training camp. Please make this happen. The league is better entertainment when That's So JaVale is a part of it.
 

Tangled Up In Red

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As if the Warriors needed more reasons to be must-see tv this winter........they signed JaVale McGee to a non-guaranteed deal to win a job in training camp. Please make this happen. The league is better entertainment when That's So JaVale is a part of it.
Just seems like such a odd/mis-fit for such a cerebral team. Or maybe I don't get JVMG.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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As if the Warriors needed more reasons to be must-see tv this winter........they signed JaVale McGee to a non-guaranteed deal to win a job in training camp. Please make this happen. The league is better entertainment when That's So JaVale is a part of it.
Yeah, I have to agree - I love me some JaVale McGee. And the Warriors and their fans always love a misfit toy that turns into something else. They lack one now that Mo Speights has departed.
 

DJnVa

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Surprised no one posted this: http://sports.yahoo.com/news/what-kevin-durants-arrival-means-for-klay-thompson-214243597.html

“I feel kind of disrespected that people keep using the term sacrifice to describe me and describe us,” Thompson told The Vertical. “We all want to see each other do well. But I’m not sacrificing [expletive], because my game isn’t changing. I’m still going to try to get buckets, hit shots, come off screens. I want to win and have a fun time every game we play.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Yeah ... having to play with Kevin Durant is a "sacrifice" of Trump levels. :)

Mostly preaching to the choir here, I think, but for fun, here's what a well constructed top 6 looks like:

2015-16 NBA assist-turnover ratio leaders, players ≥ 6'-6"
1. Livingston 3.04
2. Iguodala 2.77
3. Horford 2.46
4. Green 2.31
5. James 2.06

2015-16 NBA true shooting % leaders, players ≥ 24.0 USG
1. Curry .669
2. Durant .634
3. Leonard .616
4. Harden .598
5. Thompson .597

Basically, Curry-Livingston-Iguodala-Thompson-Durant-Green is the second coming of 1995-97 Kerr-Harper-Jordan-Pippen-Kukoc-Rodman (greatest team ever, by most measures), only longer, younger and better.

The big bodies both teams throw out at C are relatively unimportant, but fwiw, I'd easily take Zaza/West/McGee over Longley/Wennington/Edwards. And the Bulls didn't have nearly an interesting group of young'uns as Looney, McCaw, Jones, Clark and McAdoo.

[End slobbering...]
 
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Sam Ray Not

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Bump.

With both teams at full strength and playing roughly their expected 2016-17 rotations, the Warriors ran out to an *89-36* lead on the Clippers tonight before both benches emptied.

One preseason game (and the Ws lost the previous one to the Raps, with the starters playing minimally) but man, tonight it sure looked like this doomsday machine may click into gear sooner than many think.
 

jablo1312

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It's not going to be like that every night, everyone needs to stay healthy, and I'm sure (and if I was a Warriors fan, would hope) that Kerr rests each of the top 4 guys significantly more than is normal...but on nights when everyone is playing and this team gets hot it sure seems like it will be unlike anything the league has really seen before.
 

Rook05

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FYI, Zach Lowe's interview with Steve Kerr on his podcast is outstanding. They covered a whole range of stuff and Kerr was more candid that I would have expected him to be. Lowe joked about having no player average over 30 minutes a game; Kerr dismissed it but there are definitely going to be games that they can take the fourth quarter off.
 

ifmanis5

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Blown out by the Lakers.
GS has a real defense problem. They have no rim protection (3rd worst points in the paint rank) and they give up lots of fast breaks (6th worst rank).
They have work to do and a trade to make. Or maybe Javale can finally learn to stand under the basket and put his arms up for 25 minutes a night.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Blown out by the Lakers.
GS has a real defense problem. They have no rim protection (3rd worst points in the paint rank) and they give up lots of fast breaks (6th worst rank).
They have work to do and a trade to make. Or maybe Javale can finally learn to stand under the basket and put his arms up for 25 minutes a night.
As I posted in the game thread, six games is simply too soon to look at statistics and while I agree their defense looks bad, the coaching staff will make adjustments.

In terms of a trade, that is too soon to discuss as well. And if the Warriors have to trade for a rim protector, they are going to get back cents on the dollar given the "leverage" around this roster. Every GM knows what is expected of this squad and they will demand a kings ransom that probably starts with either Thompson or Green. The Warriors undoubtedly know this too which is why they will try to fix it with what they already have on hand (or maybe they can coax Larry Sanders out of retirement).

Regarding McGee, he has the skill-set but his problem is that he lacks discipline. If they can get him to buy in to being a defense-first player, they do a lot to shore up their defense.
 

chilidawg

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Blown out by the Lakers.
GS has a real defense problem. They have no rim protection (3rd worst points in the paint rank) and they give up lots of fast breaks (6th worst rank).
They have work to do and a trade to make. Or maybe Javale can finally learn to stand under the basket and put his arms up for 25 minutes a night.
Making shots covers up a lot of sins, especially the fast breaks.
 

ElUno20

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I feel like Durant and Green could coanchor the defense in the playoffs but that's like 30 months away. The reason you can pull Bogut for large stretches in the playoffs and be flexible is because he's done a lot of work during the season holding down the D so guys are a little fresher. But if you're sitting in November and saying that Durant, Zaza, and Green have to hold down the paint for a 9 month season, that is exhausting. Not that it isn't possible but it's just tiring.

They need someone who can get down in the paint, be a physical and rebound so Durant can be free and hold on that shit until the playoffs.