Celtics trade rumors (founded, unfounded)

Sprowl said:

Isn't the case for Okafor that he, unlike most other Celtics, can get and make his own shot inside and from mid range? A decent post game isn't as valuable as it was in the past century, but it's not useless either. Aside from Thomas and Rozier (probably), what other Celtic has the capacity to create their own shot in 2016-2017? Horford, Olynyk, Crowder, Smart and Bradley are complementary players, not creators. Brown might in a year or two, but I doubt that anyone would count on the game slowing down for a 19-year-old rookie.

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This is all true. On the other hand, the Sixers also needed someone to create their own shot - they had even less playmaking than the Celtics did. And yet, Okafor was still a huge negative for them even offensively (by the plus/minus metrics). This isn't taking Okafor off a context where he wasn't asked to create a shot - he was asked to do that before, and it didn't lead to good results.

Granted that Okafor's numbers from his rookie year were either disappointing or awful, but that's why he's on the market at a cheap price. The tools haven't gone away, and plenty of NBA big men had awful rookie seasons before they figured it out, or got teammates who could play to their strengths. Nowitzki was a rookie bust, but ended up the most accomplished player in a deep draft.

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This is all reasonable. I agree Okafor has a lot of room to grow still. I don't think he'll ever be a good defender, and I'd be surprised if he ever got to average, but his offensive game can still develop if he becomes a better passer for instance. I don't think he's hopeless as a prospect. I just don't think we can assume he's going to be any kind of offensive help in the short term.

zenter said:

Can we just rename this "the Okafor thread" and start an actual rumors thread?

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I think people have just gotten fixated on him because Boston was trying to work out a three way deal for Jimmy Butler in February, and everyone imagines that Okafor must be near the top of Boston's wish list since he was involved. Honestly I would be shocked if they traded for him for the defensive reasons I outlined earlier. They have a starting C now, they need help at the 4, not the 5.

nighthob said:

Let's express your thought another way, how about Boston trade Avery Bradley and Kelly Olynyk to Brooklyn for Anthony Bennet. After all, isn't it worth Avery Bradley to trade from #13 to #1 in 2013? Where someone is drafted is irrelevant. Bradley has more impact that Okafor, and honestly, I think Rozier will end up having a greater impact too.

Okafor's defensive issues are a double whammy for Boston, because Al Horford's days of being a full time PF are behind him, and Okafor is only capable of being a terrible defensive center, so he not only makes Boston's defense worse by his own inabilities, he also reduces Horford's impact on the game, and likely results in Horford being gassed at the time of the year they need him the most. Really, no thanks. Unless Philadelphia is pitching in the LA #1 to even out the deal for Bradley.

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I understand what you are getting at (draft position isnt everything) but that comparison is pretty disingenuous. Okafor was thought of as a slam dunk #1 pick throughout HS and into the beginning of his Freshman year at college (where he led his team to a national title) before KAT became the freak he is now. Bennett was never thought of that highly and was the #1 pick in an absolutely awful draft, and all the draftniks were surprised he was taken there
Okafor was drafted into pretty much the worst situation possible for him and still put up 17.5 and 7 with a 17.5 PER. I am not sure if he will ever become anything more than a thoroughly mediocre defender (due to his subpar lateral movement) but the rhetoric in this thread has swung way too anti-Okafor. He's an incredibly gifted offensive player with a really good post game, and although the value of that has gone down in the "pace and space" NBA, it is still worth a good deal.

tbb345 said:

I understand what you are getting at (draft position isnt everything) but that comparison is pretty disingenuous. Okafor was thought of as a slam dunk #1 pick throughout HS and into the beginning of his Freshman year at college... before KAT became the freak he is now.

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He wasn't, really. Most of the advanced analysts and many of us old fashioned by-the-eyes guys felt that Towns was a much better player. Not only for all the reasons I outlined defensively, but because he had a much broader offensive game than Okafor. There were a lot of us, again from both the gearhead and the by-the-eyes camp that felt that Philly had blown the pick with Okafor because he is, literally, an offensive roleplayer with no defensive position in the NBA.

But it's also not disingenuous because the value isn't about retroactively trading up. Avery Bradley has a much greater impact on NBA games than Okafor, and that won't be changing any time soon, if ever. Bradley for Okafor straight up represents a huge downgrade for Boston because it hurts the defense at three spots on the floor. Philly would need to chip in more to just to make that trade equal. There is zero reason for Boston to be adding to Bradley for a guy that would be coming here to be the backup center, because the Celtics just signed a much better one. Now if there were a team with PF upgrade for Boston that wanted Okafor, then sure, a three way deal would be in order. But just no to Bradley+ for a backup center upgrade.

ColonelMustard said:

I'm sorry, what? I think some of your assumptions are really bad.
1) Bradley is leaving next year (almost 100% certainty)
2) The Celtics are playing for the 2017 - 2020 seasons

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This seems like a bad assumption to me.

Why is Bradley almost a 100% certainty to leave next season?

Do you mean he'll be traded? Or demand a trade? He can't leave on his own till summer of 2018. He's still got two years left on his deal.

Not a trade rumor, but there's idle speculation that the Celtics could make an offer to JR Smith. Probably just posturing from his agent to drive up his price, but it's not the worst idea in the world.

nighthob said:

You did.

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My comment was in response to an Okafor/Brown trade.

HomeRunBaker said:

My comment was in response to an Okafor/Brown trade.

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ALiveH said:

okafor is a really challenging player to value b/c he is young, has loads of offensive potential but is so so so atrocious defensively. And, he was in a really bad dysfunctional situation so it's a tough guess how much of that is fixable with better coaching & environment. given the youth, risk, uncertainty & potential, my best guess is he is most comparable to a mid-lottery 1st, i.e., if I were Ainge and were offered him for Jaylen brown straight up I'd probably say no, but not before giving it serious consideration & getting Brad's opinion on which player he liked better.

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cheech13 said:

Not a trade rumor, but there's idle speculation that the Celtics could make an offer to JR Smith. Probably just posturing from his agent to drive up his price, but it's not the worst idea in the world.

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I would love this, although the Gerald Green signing probably makes it unlikely. Smith is a very good fit I think, if they can survive any chemistry issues.

It's lazy Sunday with nothing major going on in the Celtics land. What better time to post someone else's rumors about the beloved Celtics?

This is from Keith Smith. The opinions expressed here are those of the author and may not reflect those of SoSH...or me for that matter. This is meant for entertainment purposes only, which is the point of this place, right?

For me, it seems that based upon Smith's writing, the reason no trade as happened yet seems to hinge upon Griffin and Westbrook's being hesitant to extend.

From RealGM by Keith 'Smitty731' Smith
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1467630#start_here

1. Sources are split if Zeller has actually signed or just agreed. If he agreed, there is still the potential they could add a year on to the deal (also non-guaranteed) and still use him in a S&T. If he has actually signed, S&T is out as he can't be dealt until 12/15 and a S&T has to be for at least 3 seasons.

2. Another source told me that the intention behind signing Zeller and Green is to make it more palatable to trade other guys. This source is also convinced that in any trade with the Clippers, that Amir Johnson is the guy that LAC wants because he would give them good depth behind Jordan and can play next to him.

3. One source says that the dream is both Griffin and Westbrook, but that Boston recognizes that is highly unlikely. This source continues to insist that one or both will be in green by the start of the year and probably by the end of July. Not sure how much I buy in to that timing.

4. If the deal is with LAC for Griffin and Pierce there are two versions floating around:

A. Amir Johnson, Jae Crowder, and John Holland and 1 1st round pick (not necessarily a BRK pick)
B. Amir Johnson, Jonas Jerebko, Jordan Mickey and John Holland and 1 BRK pick

5. In relation to the above, Sacramento is not currently in. If they get back in, Boston would like to tweak the deal to deliver LAC Rudy Gay, Amir Johnson and a 1st round pick (non-BRK) while Sacramento gets Terry Rozier and something else.

6. LAC is NOT shopping Blake Griffin, but they are listening. There is a major difference. Same with Sacramento and Rudy Gay.

7. On Westbrook:

A. The Celtics would love to have him, but have no intention of gutting the team so much that they can't contend.
B. Boston would love to work a trade that delivers them Westbrook using some combination of Marcus Smart, a BRK pick and players. The problem is salary matching gets tricky.

8. And probably the biggest news of all: Everyone I talked to said that IF Boston is willing to part with a current player of value AND at least 1 BRK pick, they will start the season with either Griffin or Westbrook in the lineup. It is simply a case of deciding to pull that trigger and make the leap. What the major hold up is that neither Griffin or Westbrook seem very interested in re-upping long term at this point. Both intend on hitting the market this summer.

9.Jackson is likely to be signed as insurance for Rozier or Smart being dealt to leave the Celtics with 3 PGs under contract.

10."Brown has NOT signed yet. Why not do that today when you used the rest of your cap space to re-sign Zeller and sign Green?"

11. "LAC is keeping that 15th roster spot open for a reason. And it isn't because of the looming hard cap for them. They want roster flexibility. Why do they need flexibility when they have no cap space and are close to the hard cap? Because of a potential trade."

12."Don't forget SAC hasn't gotten another PG yet. They need one bad with Collison's legal troubles. And they love Rozier."

13. One source is convinced Brown will be traded, thus why he hasn't signed yet.
Other source is saying he believes Brown will be backing up Pierce opening night with Crowder going out to LAC...

Paul Pierce as a starting 3, eh?

Jed Zeppelin said:

Paul Pierce as a starting 3, eh?

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That's fucking hilarious.

Who is Keith Smith, and why should we care?

oumbi said:

3. One source says that the dream is both Griffin and Westbrook, but that Boston recognizes that is highly unlikely. This source continues to insist that one or both will be in green by the start of the year and probably by the end of July. Not sure how much I buy in to that timing.

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I really don't want one star (at the likely cost of a Brooklyn pick) and feel that the two best scenarios this offseason are either the Celtics pick up two stars or they stand pat - and there is a part of me that might actually prefer standing pat. We are currently in the heart of the Lebron/Curry era and it's not clear to me how even a Griffin/Westbrook duo defeats either Cleveland or Golden State going forward. Also, if the predictable happens and the Cs (even with Griffin/Westbrook) don't win a championship, one or both stars might flee to a different contender after the season. Meanwhile, next year's draft is stacked and the Nets are horrific, making that Brooklyn pick a chip that could easily lead to a cost-controlled star.

It wouldn't be a Griffin/Westbrook duo though. It would be a Gruffin/Westbrook/Horford trio. Horfird would be perhaps the best third star on any team.

E5 Yaz said:

Who is Keith Smith, and why should we care?

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Can't answer your second question

That looks like Keith Smart to me.

Who plays defense after you've traded Smart, Crowder, Amir, Rozier and Bradley?

amfox1 said:

That looks like Keith Smart to me.

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Yeah, I didn't think that answer was too smith

Jesus I need to get my eyes checked. Oh well, nice pic though.

jon abbey said:

Golden State says hello, they have four players better than Horford.

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So other than the team that just won the most games ever that added one of the best few players in the league...