Is it safe to discuss John Farrell again?

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Strike4

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One thing about the DD era is that things seem to happen a lot quicker/more efficiently than they did under Epstein/Cherington regime...wonder if there will be a quick hook with Farrell, depending on the successor.
 

barbed wire Bob

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The baserunning's been excellent this year.

On June 8 Speier wrote an article lauding the base running and calling it the "Red Sox' secret weapon."

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2016/06/08/red-sox-showing-another-way-get-leg-competition/m4Q9zo7OoVImhGnrQsXhAI/story.html

Now, apparently the base running is so bad that some posters here are using it as a reason why JF should be fired. To me this just more proof that the hatred of Farrell is completely irrational.
 

twibnotes

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The endless debate over attribution could easily apply to base running too. The Red Sox have a lot of young players who can run. They SHOULD be a good base running team.

Meanwhile, we have indeed witnessed some bad decisions of late (to name a few: Hanley picked off, players running into outs like Mookie did last night, Shore picked off).

I'm not smart enough to crack the code on what Farrell's precise impact is relative to base running, but it's wrong to say he's managing this element fine just bc the team is overall a good base running team.
 

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The endless debate over attribution could easily apply to base running too. The Red Sox have a lot of young players who can run. They SHOULD be a good base running team.

Meanwhile, we have indeed witnessed some bad decisions of late (to name a few: Hanley picked off, players running into outs like Mookie did last night, Shore picked off).

I'm not smart enough to crack the code on what Farrell's precise impact is relative to base running, but it's wrong to say he's managing this element fine just bc the team is overall a good base running team.
Speed does not equal good base running. Speed is a gift, base running is a skill. History is littered with players who could run but who weren't good base runners.
If it's "wrong to say he's managing this element fine just bc the team is overall a good base running team," then it's also wrong to blame base running blunders on him. It's one way or the other.
 

Curt S Loew

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So much for that skill of not throwing your players under the bus. Move him to the front office. Get someone with better decision quality.
Yeah, I was surprised to hear him say that. Especially coming on the heels of his comment about Price "Having his best stuff of the season" comment. He's clearly feeling the heat. It is showing in his latest interviews.
 

Al Zarilla

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I posted this in last night's gamethread. You're not paying attention Jawn (or, you and Willis can't tell Wright's knuckleball from his fastball from the dugout).

NESN had a stat though re number of knuckle balls thrown vs. "fastballs" before and after the rain started. After the rain started it was MORE fastballs than knucklers; before, something like 4 or 5 to 1 in favor of the knuckler, or whatever Wright's normal mix is. That should have set an alarm bell off with Farrell and his pitching coach. A Bud Black/his pitching coach would have been out talking to Wright and Vazquez post haste. Farrell threw his pitcher under the bus.
 

twibnotes

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Speed does not equal good base running. Speed is a gift, base running is a skill. History is littered with players who could run but who weren't good base runners.
If it's "wrong to say he's managing this element fine just bc the team is overall a good base running team," then it's also wrong to blame base running blunders on him. It's one way or the other.

It's true that speed alone does not equal good base running, but it certainly helps.

I don't agree with the way you present the issue in your last two sentences. He might be good at some things (e.g., he and his staff may encourage good decisions on first to third decisions) and bad on others (e.g., guys might be caught sleeping too often). I'm just using examples here or course, but the point is there are lots of aspects to all elements of the game. I think we all agree it is really difficult to assign perfectly credit and blame to a manager, so you look for signs. Getting caught sleeping as Shore and Hanley did is a bad sign, as is Mookie making a bad read. This team seems to make a lot of bad decisions (other examples include our best hitters bunting on their own).
 

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I posted this in last night's gamethread. You're not paying attention Jawn (or, you and Willis can't tell Wright's knuckleball from his fastball from the dugout).

NESN had a stat though re number of knuckle balls thrown vs. "fastballs" before and after the rain started. After the rain started it was MORE fastballs than knucklers; before, something like 4 or 5 to 1 in favor of the knuckler, or whatever Wright's normal mix is. That should have set an alarm bell off with Farrell and his pitching coach. A Bud Black/his pitching coach would have been out talking to Wright and Vazquez post haste. Farrell threw his pitcher under the bus.
And he couldn't control the fastball or curve either (other than the fastballs grooved down the middle).
 

flymrfreakjar

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I don't understand this. Everyone in the game thread seemed to notice that Wright couldn't get a grip on the knuckleball in the wet.
Especially given that Wright himself has complained about that before. And the other bad start from him came when he was absolutely drenched in sweat down in Texas (though he maintained that that one was a grip issue stemming from something else). Knuckleballers are mercurial and if they can identify something that clearly hinders their feel for the ball and ability to throw their pitch, it should be highlighted. Obviously Wright isn't going to ask out of the game, and Farrell may have been able to anticipate the struggles once the rain started. I hope they have someone ready early the next time he pitches in wet conditions.
 

geoduck no quahog

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We all remember when Wakefield used to just lose it...and then sometimes regain it...for no apparent reason. I think Dickey has experienced the same.

Depending on a knuckleballer is a scary business, but sometimes it works out really well. Regardless of Wright's comments, I think too much is being made of the rain, the wind, the temperature, the humidity, the amount of cholesterol and whether or not he had sex the night before. I think he just sucked yesterday.

edit: From the gamethread post (6th inning overview):

Knuckleballs: 7 total - 5 balls, 2 strikes (ironically both to Cron)
Fastballs: 9 total - 4 balls (including a HBP), 3 strikes + 2 hits (double and HR)
Curveballs: 4 total - 3 balls, 1 strike

20 pitches, 12 balls + 2 hits (neither off a knuckleball)
 
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P'tucket rhymes with...

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We all remember when Wakefield used to just lose it...and then sometimes regain it...for no apparent reason. I think Dickey has experienced the same.

Depending on a knuckleballer is a scary business, but sometimes it works out really well. Regardless of Wright's comments, I think too much is being made of the rain, the wind, the temperature, the humidity, the amount of cholesterol and whether or not he had sex the night before. I think he just sucked yesterday.

edit: From the gamethread post (6th inning overview):

Knuckleballs: 7 total - 5 balls, 2 strikes (ironically both to Cron)
Fastballs: 9 total - 4 balls (including a HBP), 3 strikes + 2 hits (double and HR)
Curveballs: 4 total - 3 balls, 1 strike

20 pitches, 12 balls + 2 hits (neither off a knuckleball)
Not to take things too far afield here, but "he just sucked yesterday" is an odd way of understanding what happened in the sixth in light of the fact that Wright had thrown five innings of six hit, shutout baseball--chiefly with the knuckler--before the rains came.
 

Rasputin

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Firing John Farrell is of no use unless you replace him with someone better. Who's that going to be?
 

E5 Yaz

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But on the Red Sox's list of problems, Farrell ranks no higher than sixth, behind Price (4.74 ERA), a staggering lack of starting pitching depth, the inconsistency of 41-year-old setup man Koji Uehara's splitter, a revolving door of left fielders and a perilously thin bench.

None of those issues will disappear if Farrell is replaced by bench coach Torey Lovullo.


http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/red-sox/post/_/id/49905/firing-manager-john-farrell-wont-solve-red-sox-real-problems
Really this sums it up unemotionally. It begins and ends with starting pitching, defense and bench depth and bullpen. Glaring holes.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I don't understand this. Everyone in the game thread seemed to notice that Wright couldn't get a grip on the knuckleball in the wet.
I think the thinking is that if the Red Sox are going to go deep, then Wright is going to have figure out something in less-than-ideal weather conditions as there's a much higher chance of something like this in the playoffs.

What better time to do this than up 5-0?

If Farrell and Willis both told Wright to throw the KB and he didn't, that's on Wright, not Farrell/Willis. While I'm not sure I would have told the media about it the way Farrell did - maybe I would have phrased it as giving him an opportunity to work in adverse conditions - the decision isn't Farrell's fault.

However, I would start having Wright throw a side session every time it rains in Boston.
 

Plympton91

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But on the Red Sox's list of problems, Farrell ranks no higher than sixth, behind Price (4.74 ERA), a staggering lack of starting pitching depth, the inconsistency of 41-year-old setup man Koji Uehara's splitter, a revolving door of left fielders and a perilously thin bench.

None of those issues will disappear if Farrell is replaced by bench coach Torey Lovullo.


http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/red-sox/post/_/id/49905/firing-manager-john-farrell-wont-solve-red-sox-real-problems
I agree the general quality of pretty much the whole pitching staff this year is deficient relative to the other playoff contenders. I don't think I agree that left field is a particularly big problem gong forward or that the bench is all that thin. Hannigan is as good a backup C as you'll find, Hernandez seems solid. if you view LF as a platoon of Holt/Young, the other is on the bench and very high quality. So, maybe you'd like to upgrade the 4th bench slot, but I hardly think that's a determinative factor, especially given that 7 starters are playing very well, with 4 quite All-Star worthy and a 5th (Pedroia) just under that level.

It just strikes me as strange to say the manager has no effect on the pitching. It seems like some people here think the managers job is to make people feel good about themselves and give uneventful press conferences. I can't imagine teams pay millions of dollars for that.
 

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Well, Sean O'Sullivan is starting today's game. I suspect there's very little Farrell can do to get a good performance out of a sub-major league pitcher.

Farrell hasn't seemed to be able to get his other starters on track, though. At some point the manager has to be considered more than an innocent bystander.
 

simplicio

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Well, Sean O'Sullivan is starting today's game. I suspect there's very little Farrell can do to get a good performance out of a sub-major league pitcher.

Farrell hasn't seemed to be able to get his other starters on track, though. At some point the manager has to be considered more than an innocent bystander.
He can be ready with a quick hook. O'Sullivan pitched pretty well last time he was up but got tired and fell apart in the sixth. Though he's gone 7 or 8 in most of his Pawtucket starts since then.
 

nattysez

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Firing John Farrell is of no use unless you replace him with someone better. Who's that going to be?
He's managed teams that looked good on paper his whole career and is under .500 lifetime as a manager. The list of guys who would be better should be long.
 

Rasputin

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Really this sums it up unemotionally. It begins and ends with starting pitching, defense and bench depth and bullpen. Glaring holes.
The bench depth was brutalized by the injury to Brock Holt because it essentially took the first option from left, the second from second and short, and the third from first and third. Then Swihart gets hurt taking an option out of left and catcher. Then Young gets hurt and we're looking at the fourth best option in left on a regular basis.

We came in here with nine candidates to be starting pitchers. Price, Porcello, Rodriguez, Buchholz, Wright, Owens, Johnson, Elias, Kelly,

Price has underperformed which isn't unusual in the first years of large contracts in new cities. Buchholz has been terrible because he's Clay Buchholz and he does that sometimes. Owens and Elias have been terrible because they're not quite ready to be major league starters. Johnson hasn't pitched in I don't know how long because he's got anxiety issues after being carjacked. Kelly has sucked because he has a personal grudge against me. Rodriguez has been terrible because an injury fucked his mechanics right in the head.

Porcello has been okay and Wright has been brilliant and literally all seven other starting pitchers have either underperformed somewhat or been outright terrible and It's not clear that any of that is on the manager.

Meanwhile, in the bullpen, Carson Smith has essentially missed the whole season. Wright hasn't been in there because he's been needed in the rotation. Noe Ramirez isn't a major league pitcher. Pat Light isn't ready. Koji is over 40.

I don't think anyone is going to claim that John Farrell is the best manager in the game, but he's far from the worst. Firing him and replacing him with someone worse isn't going to solve all the problems just because he's different. You want to replace him with someone better, that's great, but I can think of a grand total of one guy who is both better and available.

If you're going to replace Farrell, who do you replace him with and why do you think he's better?
 

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JF could do little to stop the disaster from unfolding last night. Yes he is the manager but what could he have done. Four errors, seven unearned runs. No hitting, no runs, little offense. Buch imploded, Ross & Light were lit up like a Christmas tree. It was horrible to watch. Was it JF fault, I think not. The team collapse in front of him and there was nothing he could do to stop it. The problems are not in the club house but out on the field. Injuries have wrecked havoc on the team. Buch has become the best offensive weapon for opponents. The pen is exhausted. The rotation has three pitchers and the rest are fill-ins that have failed terribly. I think JF is feeling a lot like Tito did in 2011. I think it may be time to make some hard decisions. Do we make a run for it or do we sit and see how things play out. Based on that decision, which is out of our collective hands, will decide if anything comes from this season. I for one do not have the answers.
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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I think it's a bit off that the Red Sox are getting pilloried for not having enough pitching depth, when what they actually have is not enough pitching performance.

Here's how Red Sox pitchers ERA through today lines up when compared to their preseason 2016 ZIPS FIP.

  • - Wright (-2.08), Hembree (-1.44), and Barnes (-1.26) have certainly exceeded expectations.
  • - Kimbrel (-0.12), Tazawa (-0.05), Porcello (+0.08), and Layne (+0.25) have basically met expectations.
  • - Owens (+0.70), Ross (+1.65 after last night), Price (+1.81), Uehara (+1.89), Ramirez (+2.44), Buchholz (+2.47), O'Sullivan (+2.81) Kelly (+4.47), Rodriguez (+5.07), Elias (+11.60), and Light (+17.89) have done notably worse than expected.
  • - Carson Smith's elbow was obviously never right physically, so I've excluded him.
  • - Cuevas wasn't projected by Fangraphs to pitch for the Sox before the season started, so I've given him a pass.
Approximately 60% of the staff has performed about average or better than they were expected to. No less than 40% of the staff has performed markedly worse than they were expected to. The Red Sox defense has been better than average, with Fangraphs ranking them 6th in MLB

But the only starter who's doing significantly better than expected is a knuckleballer who was only expected to make the team out of spring training because he was out of options. The only relievers who are doing significantly better than expected are middle relievers the opposition isn't game-planning around.

And only two key members of a 12-13 man pitching staff have injuries they could blame.

I echo SJ -- at some point, the management of the pitching staff has to be considered more than an innocent bystander when performance is this bad. Accountability falls on the pitchers, the catchers, the pitching coach, and the manager.

But you can't fire everybody.

Lovullo did fine last season. He should get another chance, at least as an interim. I wouldn't mind Alex Cora getting a shot. Or, if you don't want to give a kid the keys to the Ferrari Fiat, then how about Bud Black for the rest of the season.

Oh, and in case anyone gets chippy... yes, I think Willis is also a candidate for the ejector seat.
 

glennhoffmania

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Farrell hasn't seemed to be able to get his other starters on track, though. At some point the manager has to be considered more than an innocent bystander.
Yes. We're back to the chicken and the egg. It continues to blow my mind that some people defend Farrell by saying that it isn't his fault that the pitchers are performing like crap. He's the manager and a former pitching coach. If his job doesn't include getting the pitchers to improve then I don't know what the hell he's supposed to be doing.

And this is in addition to his all too frequent questionable in game moves and the general below expectations team performance that's now in its third season.
 

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Oh, and in case anyone gets chippy... yes, I think Willis is also a candidate for the ejector seat.
But who replaces him? And what would it say to change pitching coaches mid-season twice in as many seasons? Could any active pitching coach get more out of this staff? Firing someone is only part of the equation, but who takes the job? Furthermore, would anyone want it? Also, how much of the issue could be attributed to Vazquéz's game-calling skills (or lack thereof)? Do we know how much the pitchers do or don't go along with his game plan? How do you measure blame in this case?
 

Rasputin

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Yes. We're back to the chicken and the egg. It continues to blow my mind that some people defend Farrell by saying that it isn't his fault that the pitchers are performing like crap. He's the manager and a former pitching coach. If his job doesn't include getting the pitchers to improve then I don't know what the hell he's supposed to be doing.

And this is in addition to his all too frequent questionable in game moves and the general below expectations team performance that's now in its third season.
Do you really think Farrell is responsible for the injury to Carson Smith, the injury to Eduardo Rodriguez, the crappy performance of pitchers with a long history of crappy performance (Kelly, Buchholz), the failure of Henry Owens to develop while not being managed by John Farrell, Brian Johnson's anxiety issues, or David Price's inexplicable affinity for throwing gopher balls?

Lovullo did fine last season. He should get another chance, at least as an interim. I wouldn't mind Alex Cora getting a shot. Or, if you don't want to give a kid the keys to the Ferrari Fiat, then how about Bud Black for the rest of the season.

Oh, and in case anyone gets chippy... yes, I think Willis is also a candidate for the ejector seat.
I'd be cool with Bud Black. We have no reason to believe Lovullo or Alex Cora is a better manager than Farrell.
 

glennhoffmania

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Do you really think Farrell is responsible for the injury to Carson Smith, the injury to Eduardo Rodriguez, the crappy performance of pitchers with a long history of crappy performance (Kelly, Buchholz), the failure of Henry Owens to develop while not being managed by John Farrell, Brian Johnson's anxiety issues, or David Price's inexplicable affinity for throwing gopher balls?
Ok let's flip it around. What do you think is fair to hold Farrell responsible for? If his job doesn't include fixing Price, Kelly, Buchholz, etc. then what does fall under his job description? I'm honestly asking.
 

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We have no reason to believe Lovullo or Alex Cora is a better manager than Farrell.
Lovullo put up a .636 winning percentage over the last 49 games of the 2015 season, with substantially the same team Farrell had gotten to a .439 winning percentage over the first two-thirds of the year.

I'm not saying that's sufficient data, but it's something.
 

bankshot1

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I think it's a bit off that the Red Sox are getting pilloried for not having enough pitching depth, when what they actually have is not enough pitching performance.

Here's how Red Sox pitchers ERA through today lines up when compared to their preseason 2016 ZIPS FIP.

  • - Wright (-2.08), Hembree (-1.44), and Barnes (-1.26) have certainly exceeded expectations.
  • - Kimbrel (-0.12), Tazawa (-0.05), Porcello (+0.08), and Layne (+0.25) have basically met expectations.
  • - Owens (+0.70), Ross (+1.65 after last night), Price (+1.81), Uehara (+1.89), Ramirez (+2.44), Buchholz (+2.47), O'Sullivan (+2.81) Kelly (+4.47), Rodriguez (+5.07), Elias (+11.60), and Light (+17.89) have done notably worse than expected.
  • - Carson Smith's elbow was obviously never right physically, so I've excluded him.
  • - Cuevas wasn't projected by Fangraphs to pitch for the Sox before the season started, so I've given him a pass.
Approximately 60% of the staff has performed about average or better than they were expected to. No less than 40% of the staff has performed markedly worse than they were expected to. The Red Sox defense has been better than average, with Fangraphs ranking them 6th in MLB

But the only starter who's doing significantly better than expected is a knuckleballer who was only expected to make the team out of spring training because he was out of options. The only relievers who are doing significantly better than expected are middle relievers the opposition isn't game-planning around.

And only two key members of a 12-13 man pitching staff have injuries they could blame.

I echo SJ -- at some point, the management of the pitching staff has to be considered more than an innocent bystander when performance is this bad. Accountability falls on the pitchers, the catchers, the pitching coach, and the manager.

But you can't fire everybody.

Lovullo did fine last season. He should get another chance, at least as an interim. I wouldn't mind Alex Cora getting a shot. Or, if you don't want to give a kid the keys to the Ferrari Fiat, then how about Bud Black for the rest of the season.

Oh, and in case anyone gets chippy... yes, I think Willis is also a candidate for the ejector seat.

Thanks for applying some #s and analytics to what I'v been watching and thinking about the last month or so.

The underperformance of so many pitchers is telling.

The conclusion I'm slowly coming to whether its fair or not is citing the old baseball axiom, "its easier to fire the manager than 25 ballplayers".
 

RIrooter09

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Ok let's flip it around. What do you think is fair to hold Farrell responsible for? If his job doesn't include fixing Price, Kelly, Buchholz, etc. then what does fall under his job description? I'm honestly asking.
This is what I keep coming back to. Most people agree he's at best a mediocre in game manager who doesn't always put his team in the best position to win. If he's below average in that part of his job, what exactly does he do well to offset that? They've fallen below their expected Pythagorean win percentage each year he's been at the helm, so what aspect of the team is he improving?
 

rembrat

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I found this article very interesting considering what Farrell is being held accountable for around these parts.

Not too long ago, Baseball teams were dictatorships and the manager was the Supreme Leader. He controlled all of the in-game strategy and many of the day-to-day operations of his unit. He chose who played and how often, who pitched and how much—while generally shaping the identity of his club.

Between the rise of data-driven decision-making, the inflation of player salaries and the increased influence of the front office, field managers have largely transformed into middle managers. And the old dictatorship has become more of a democracy.
Gibbons pointed out that managers traditionally have had more flexibility in handling their bullpen. Recently, however, even that has gone away to some extent, as teams have moved toward building super-bullpens filled with multiple relievers with defined roles—like the Yankees’ “big three” of Dellin Betances (seventh inning), Andrew Miller (eighth inning) and Aroldis Chapman (ninth inning).
Even new aspects of baseball that seem to be in the manager’s purview aren’t really his responsibility at all: When to ask for a replay review, for instance, largely comes from a video coordinator, while defensive shifts are usually decided by information compiled by a team’s analytics department.

“Baseball’s not like some of the other sports where it’s all X’s and O’s,” Gibbons said. “A lot of people are going to do the same things at the same time. The game dictates a lot of the stuff.”
So what makes a skipper good at his job in 2016? After all, teams pay their managers millions of dollars a year to do something.

Asked that question, Bautista rattled off a list of characteristics he believes make a successful manager, barely touching on anything involving actual baseball maneuverings.

These ranged from “making sure there’s a good atmosphere in the clubhouse, on the flights, in the team travel, at the hotels,” to fostering an environment “where people can be themselves” to ensuring that players are “able to fully just go out and play in a relaxed way where their talent can be on full display.”

Link


I want him canned simply so we can move on from this discussion.
 

Rasputin

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Lovullo put up a .636 winning percentage over the last 49 games of the 2015 season, with substantially the same team Farrell had gotten to a .439 winning percentage over the first two-thirds of the year.

I'm not saying that's sufficient data, but it's something.
It's insufficient data is what it is. You can't draw conclusions from insufficient data. That's what the insufficient part means.

More to the point, are we really supposed to think that Lovullo will do something to get players to perform better as manager that he's not doing now? Is he withholding something that will make Price stop giving up gophers? Is he withholding something that will fix Eduardo Rodriguez?
 

Rasputin

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Ok let's flip it around. What do you think is fair to hold Farrell responsible for? If his job doesn't include fixing Price, Kelly, Buchholz, etc. then what does fall under his job description? I'm honestly asking.
Obviously he's responsible for everything. His ability to impact many things is very limited, though. The things he has the most control over are:

Team morale. If the team stops playing hard, or never starts playing hard--see Kevin Kennedy--that's on the manager.

Lineups. If the manager is making excruciatingly bad decisions--see Jimy Williams--that's on the manager.

Other strategic decisions. If the manager is consistently making terrible strategic decisions--see Butch Hobston--even after allowing for the fact that we, as fans, have imperfect information, and allowing for the fact that we're not always going to agree with every decision--that's on the manager.

With John Farrell, the team is playing hard, the lineups aren't always optimal but are generally reasonable, the strategic decisions are mostly defensible.
 

EricFeczko

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I found this article very interesting considering what Farrell is being held accountable for around these parts.







Link


I want him canned simply so we can move on from this discussion.
Be careful what you wish for. One thread on whether to fire Farrell may be better than a dozen threads, each on a given potential hire. For 2017.

There will also be two threads on whether the interim manager is better than farrell/lovullo.
 

twibnotes

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Obviously he's responsible for everything. His ability to impact many things is very limited, though. The things he has the most control over are:

Team morale. If the team stops playing hard, or never starts playing hard--see Kevin Kennedy--that's on the manager.

Lineups. If the manager is making excruciatingly bad decisions--see Jimy Williams--that's on the manager.

Other strategic decisions. If the manager is consistently making terrible strategic decisions--see Butch Hobston--even after allowing for the fact that we, as fans, have imperfect information, and allowing for the fact that we're not always going to agree with every decision--that's on the manager.

With John Farrell, the team is playing hard, the lineups aren't always optimal but are generally reasonable, the strategic decisions are mostly defensible.

This is good stuff and hard to disagree with but for a couple things imo:

1) Player Performance. I know this is hotly debated, but I do think a good manager is able to leverage his coaching staff to help course correct players who are struggling. As has been pointed out by several posters, Farrell has had a lot of pitchers perform below expectations, and not just this year.

2) Strategic Decisions. I don't think I'm alone in saying you're being generous when you say his decisions are "mostly defensible." Even Farrell defenders at times have acknowledged that he's not a very good in-game tactician.
 

Reggie's Racquet

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With John Farrell, the team is playing hard, the lineups aren't always optimal but are generally reasonable, the strategic decisions are mostly defensible.
Really. I must be watching another team. The team is playing sloppy, the lineups are often not optimal, his strategic in game management is indefensible on a regular basis.

I'm not going to give specific examples because that has been done and if you are watching this team and in the game threads on a regular basis you know what they are.

There are reasonable managerial alternatives that have been pointed out above. Lovullo, Black, Leyland.

What do you propose? Do nothing and have another month like June and dig ourselves further into a wildcard hole.

This fan base deserves better from the entire organization...ownership, management, coaches and players.
 

DanoooME

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I want him canned simply so we can move on from this discussion.
This is where I am on the subject.

It's pretty clear there are a bunch of vocal defenders of the Farrell and a bunch that want him hung from the tallest tree. There's also a huge silent majority that just doesn't care one way or the other and wishes we had something better to talk about.
 

Reggie's Racquet

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This is where I am on the subject.

It's pretty clear there are a bunch of vocal defenders of the Farrell and a bunch that want him hung from the tallest tree. There's also a huge silent majority that just doesn't care one way or the other and wishes we had something better to talk about.
I totally agree. Baseball is entertainment. Fans invest their hard earned money to be entertained. I would love to be entertained but this team is frustratingly hard to watch. I find myself watching less and less.

Why does anyone want to watch overpaid individuals under perform coupled with consistently management decision making. A lot of us get that everyday when we go to work.
 

Toe Nash

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The Sox as of this writing have a tenuous grip on even the play-in game. Using season stats to date, they have a 49% chance to make the playoffs and a 38% chance to make the division series (factoring in the chance of winning the play-in game). Fangraphs' projections are a little rosier as they don't seem to like the Orioles much, but even those give them just a 49% chance to make the division round. Moreover, these odds have dropped from 85% on May 31, and 73% as late as June 19. This is precisely the type of team that should be aggressive and "do something." Additionally, Baltimore and Toronto are in similar positions and may make a move or two.

If the price for a front-line starter or two are too high, changing the management could have a similar effect (especially if DD thinks they are underperforming).
 

Rasputin

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Really. I must be watching another team. The team is playing sloppy, the lineups are often not optimal, his strategic in game management is indefensible on a regular basis.
It's really not. People who say this have, for whatever reason, made up their mind that Farrell is at fault for things that aren't remotely his fault and are considering perfectly reasonable moves as indefensible. It's nonsense, and a sign that you aren't thinking rationally.

There are reasonable managerial alternatives that have been pointed out above. Lovullo, Black, Leyland.
There is no reason to think Lovullo is a better manager. Maybe he would be. We don't know. Jim Leyland is about 150 years old. If the Sox were to replace Farrell with Black, I'd be cool with that.

What do you propose? Do nothing and have another month like June and dig ourselves further into a wildcard hole.
I propose addressing issues that can make a difference and not just making changes to soothe a rancid fanbase. That starts with getting healthy. It means getting some more reliable pitching in here.

I propose not doing a goddamn thing to try to get a wild card. That way lies madness. I propose not doing anything that isn't in the long term interests of the team. This year isn't more important than next year, it just comes first. If the division is in sight, or if a trade makes good long-term sense, pull the trigger.

You want something more specific?

Work with Joe Kelly to make him the best reliever he can be. It's his best--maybe only--route to becoming a solid contributor.

When Ryan Hanigan is healthy, send Christian Vazquez down and go with Hanigan and Leon.

Bring in a mechanics expert to work with Eduardo Rodriguez and don't even think of bringing him up until he's actually ready to pitch at the major league level.

Bring in a left fielder that can platoon with Young so Brock Holt can provide depth everywhere.

Get Young healthy.

Beg David Ortiz to come back another year.

When Swihart is healthy, forget about left field, and have him play some first and/or third in addition to catcher because that's where we're going to need depth in the years ahead, not in left.

Look for another starting pitcher on two fronts. One, a back of the rotation guy who isn't great, isn't terrible, and doesn't cost much. Two, a guy who is very good and who can push Porcello and whoever the hell else survives into the back end of the rotation. Be willing to give up some value for this, but not Espinoza, and not more than one of the big four.

Look for late inning relievers and a better primary lefty.

This fan base deserves better from the entire organization...ownership, management, coaches and players.
There aren't many fan bases who have had it better over the past fifteen years. If you think this organization hasn't delivered, you're delusional, and you're exactly the kind of overly entitled fan that is making the rest of us look bad.

I think this organization deserves better from this fanbase. We've won the World Series three times, the most recent of which was only three years ago. We've got a tremendous collection of outstanding young talent.

Stop pretending the manager can control everything. Stop acting like the Red Sox should always be in first place. Stop acting like there are simple solutions to a multiple of interrelated problems.
 

Rasputin

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The Sox as of this writing have a tenuous grip on even the play-in game. Using season stats to date, they have a 49% chance to make the playoffs and a 38% chance to make the division series (factoring in the chance of winning the play-in game). Fangraphs' projections are a little rosier as they don't seem to like the Orioles much, but even those give them just a 49% chance to make the division round. Moreover, these odds have dropped from 85% on May 31, and 73% as late as June 19. This is precisely the type of team that should be aggressive and "do something." Additionally, Baltimore and Toronto are in similar positions and may make a move or two.

If the price for a front-line starter or two are too high, changing the management could have a similar effect (especially if DD thinks they are underperforming).
I completely disagree. Making trades to try to make a crapshoot one game playoff is an easy road to a very bad decision. I would rather have this team sell than give up assets to try to make the wild card. If the division is in play--and it probably will be--that's another story, but even then I'm not really interested in spending any of our big time assets on rentals.

We have an excellent young core. The goal is to preserve and augment that for the long term so we can be the best team in this division for the better part of a decade, not a single season.
 

JohntheBaptist

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Who said it had to be a rental? The team needs to improve the pitching, period, so it can "be the best team in this division for the better part of a decade" and "win as many WS as we can in our lifetime" and blah blah blah. It will have to be done on some level via the trade market. They have no upper-level mL arms to rely on, the FA market is non-existent in the near future, and there isn't a real credible route for the usual "stand pat and hope" routine.

We are going to trade some guys and it is going to sting, but this team needs pitching, period. I don't care if they want to avoid doing it mid-season, but it has to happen. I still have not read a solution for improvement that addresses that, and I can't overstate this enough--not doing anything and hoping is not a solution.

edit--that said, I agree with Ras. The solution cannot just be firing John Farrell, even if that is a positive step (which it may be).
 
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