Wow. That's a pretty damaging fuck up by someone in the organization. It'd be interesting to know the expected future WAR that they're forfeiting with that punishment.
MLB Investigates Red Sox Over International Signings
- Thread starter soxhop411
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It'll be interesting to see the details of what they did wrong. I know BA has a lot on this but I don't think they've reported specific findings yet, right?
Ha, any claims that MLB investigators would follow the letter of the law in their investigating would be suspect.
Is this a big deal that the Sox have lost these prospects and are not allowed to sign any amateur talent?
The MLB loves the Cardinals. Smaller market team that wins championships. In the eyes of the league they are not as bad as the Big Bad Boston Red Sox using their never ending capital to finish in last place every other year.
The leagues are and have always been hypocritical. I don't even want to bring up what the NFL has done to the Pats.
Let's not talk about the Cardinals and Patriots here, as they're both far from pertinent and have their own threads.
I'm guessing MLB was trying to get rid of these package deals, the Sox were the most blatant amongst the clubs skirting the rules and they dropped the hammer on them. It's not the end of the world, but it does hurt. The fact that international signing bonuses for these kids are being kept so artificially low is the biggest crime being committed here. I know the MLBPA doesn't represent non-MLBers, but I'd like to see them champion the causes of the amateurs that become their membership more in the next CBA negotiations. Minor leaguers and international signees are getting hosed more and more.
I'm guessing MLB was trying to get rid of these package deals, the Sox were the most blatant amongst the clubs skirting the rules and they dropped the hammer on them. It's not the end of the world, but it does hurt. The fact that international signing bonuses for these kids are being kept so artificially low is the biggest crime being committed here. I know the MLBPA doesn't represent non-MLBers, but I'd like to see them champion the causes of the amateurs that become their membership more in the next CBA negotiations. Minor leaguers and international signees are getting hosed more and more.
Further proof that all Boston sports teams have no regard for the decency of the game.
Sox Prospects has Albert Guaimaro at #56 and Simon Muzziotti at #60, so it isn't a huge blow to the system. Weren't we basically out on international signings this year any how because of how much we spend previously, or am I thinking of the year before last?
Sox Prospects has Albert Guaimaro at #56 and Simon Muzziotti at #60, so it isn't a huge blow to the system. Weren't we basically out on international signings this year any how because of how much we spend previously, or am I thinking of the year before last?
I'd be willing to bet the projected future WAR both of these kids and of the future potential signees combined is still less than that of Yoan Moncada. But honestly, signing that many "package deals" to get premium talent after shelling out so many millions past the cap for Moncada was clearly painting a big bullseye on the organization's back. MLB found the fire underneath the smokescreen.
And now that the Red Sox had to take both a financial hit and a talent hit to get him, hopefully Moncada won't be traded. Frankly, I wonder if DDski shouldn't trade any of their prospects at the deadline. The team not only lost the five named prospects, but they're frozen out of the international amateur market next year, too. Makes signing Groome even more important than it was yesterday.
Of course none of this is anywhere as serious as the Cardinals' federal crimes, but whatever.
They weren't out on international signings all together, just limited in how much they could spend because they exceeded the cap when they signed Moncada (among others). The punishment being meted out is for attempting to circumvent those limitations, so now they are out on international signings no matter how much they want to spend.
Does the MLB ruling specifically state that Boston can't just resign the prospects whose contracts have been voided, now that they are FA? Then again, thats the sort of move that I imagine would be frowned upon...
I'm pretty sure the Cardinals haven't been punished yet because there is an ongoing FBI investigation into what they did.
So let me get this straight - they were limited to $300K per player, and were buying a 'package' of say 2 players for $600K and the agent was giving one kid $500K and the other $100K? That's pretty shady. Not surprising honestly, but shady (and I'm sure other teams are doing it)
I would imagine it would depend on how they're classifying these players. Are they again international free agents or just "regular" free agents? In one case, the Sox are barred from signing them at all. In the other, it would probably be frowned upon but not against any rules...if they really wanted the players back in that case, they'd probably have to pay more than the original deal to do it, which is arguably further punishment.
I'm not 100% sure, but I think they would be considered international amateurs, and the Red Sox are barred from signing any international amateurs this year.
So regarding the Yankees - are they staying above the fray here? Was it a year or two ago where they signed like 20 of the top 30 IFA? I assume they are under the same 300K penalty the Sox are? And they are behaving?
Although maybe they don't feel the pressure to package since they plopped 20 top IFA in their system all at once....I'd like a Sox fan who has a lot of spare time to do due diligence on NY's IFA last year.
Although maybe they don't feel the pressure to package since they plopped 20 top IFA in their system all at once....I'd like a Sox fan who has a lot of spare time to do due diligence on NY's IFA last year.
Most other teams were not subject to the $300k limitation. The Red Sox were very blatent about how they did this and got caught. Perhaps other teams subject to the limitation are doing it, but they weren't as blatent about it.
Ben Badler is I think a good source on the international prospect scene. His coverage of the penalties includes this tidbit:
A potential stampede of FAs, who then will only be able to be signed by the 5-6 clubs who don't get whacked.
God, that would all kinds of awesome. I hope every single player signed via a package deal comes forward now and demands free agency.
I suspect that there are agents and lawyers combing through the draftees to unearth new clients.
Brings up and interesting way of getting a tough sign in the amateur draft. Suppose Groom had 2 older brothers, and the Red Sox drafted them in the 49th and 50th rounds and gave them each the $100k maximum that doesn't hit the spending cap. Would they get dinged for packaging?
Hmm. Team signed Xander for $410,000 and his brother Jair for $180,000 at the same time (before sending him to Theo for his release)...
(I kid, I kid)
I still don't understand these 3 paragraphs from the early Baseball America piece:
I guess "package deal" is not illegal...only using it to circumvent caps is?
Thank you for linking that article.
Still not sure St. Louis will be as heavily penalized as they should be, but I hope I am wrong.
Guaimaro looked like a real prospect. Not sure about the others. How was it determined which ones were declared free agents?
Well NY didn't sign a top 30 prospect last year under the ban. The Red Sox signed the #15 and #24 prospects in the class.
NY has not signed a top 50 players so far today (and 45 of the top 50 have signed), although they were rumored to be the favorite to sign the #25 player in the class who is unsigned still
Are any of the players on that list the $50K valuation guys that the Sox gave $300K to?
guessing not.....?
I think this penalty seems harsher than it is. It's pretty rare for one of these kids to turn into impact players, and those that do rarely sign for 300K or less. The Red Sox weren't likely to end up with anything that's going to have a material impact on the farm system by being lost from last year's group, and they weren't likely to sign one this year either. If the commissioner's office was looking to make a statement about this practice, this seems like a pretty good way to do it without actually doing any significant damage to the team they are using to send that message.
Who do the Sox currently have in the system that is worth getting excited about that was signed as an IFA for 300k or less? I can't think of anyone...
Who do the Sox currently have in the system that is worth getting excited about that was signed as an IFA for 300k or less? I can't think of anyone...
Vazquez was drafted in 2008 in the 9th round, not an IFA. Edro was an IFA six years ago, and would almost certainly go for over 300k on today's market.
Are you talking about Christain Vasquez, because he was drafted, he is not an international signee?
The issue isn't so much who the Yankees sign THIS signing period (because the warning has been sounded), it is the previous IFA signing period when the Yankees went on a spree. It would be interesting to know how much bundling of highly rated prospects and non-prospects were signed by the Yankees who had the same agent.
Why would they bundle? The Yankees weren't restricted by the cap in 2014 and decided that they would live with the penalties. The Redsox did the same thing that year and were way over the cap before Moncada came into the picture.
This punishment really seems a lot worse than it is. They were already "penalized" by only being able to offer $300,000. The only way you are going to get a decent prospect at that going rate is by "packaging." A real punishment would be telling the Redsox they can't sign anyone in the 2017/2018 period when their restrictions are lifted. I'm guessing next year, unless the system is changed, we'll see the Sox go way over slot again to refill the system with the loss of the 2016 signing period and with the loss of 5 of their 2015 signings.
Even with this punishment, the 2014 class was well worth it. Limited to $1,881,700* to spend, the Sox ended up spending almost all of that on Anderson Espinoza alone, at 1.8m. They added Chris Acosta at 1.5m. They were at 3.975m before adding 31.5m for Moncada. The Yankees were limited to $2,191,300 and ended up spending $15,575,000. Basically, you are better off doing what the Yankees did. They got 4 top 10 talents and 10 top 30 talents. If they followed the rules, during the 2014-2017 signing period, they may have ended up with 2 top 10 talents and 5-6 top 30 talents with luck. May as well break the bank and sign everyone. Sucks the sox did it the same year the yankees did and weren't willing to spend as much... but Moncada.
This is where I am at. Furthermore, the manner in which the MLB has handled these judgements has been even-handed. Especially when compared to the NFL.
