MLB Investigates Red Sox Over International Signings
- Thread starter soxhop411
- Start date
Finally the real reason for Ben's departure is unearthed.
More seriously, regardless of whether the Sox skirted the rules or the spirit of them, this seems like a gross system.
More seriously, regardless of whether the Sox skirted the rules or the spirit of them, this seems like a gross system.
The aggressive approach to questioning the kids seems a wee bit out of proportion to what's at stake here, doesn't it? (Never mind the fact that if there has been any wrongdoing, it certainly wasn't theirs.)
The treatment (or exploitation) of young & poor players from the DR, PR, and South America has long been an issue in MLB. My sense is that the only time anyone really cares is when one team appears to have an advantage and then another team gets pissed. All the owners want the limited bonus pool and an international draft.
There are both documentary and fictional treatments of the system. ("Sugar" & "Pelotero" come to mind; and Ken Burns had an "inning" of it, IIRC).
Anybody, never mind a teenager, is liable to confess to anything under the threat of punishment. Have to appreciate that BA covered this aspect of the story in some detail rather than a simpleton "INVESTIGATION!" clickbait piece. Of course, BA is plenty aware of the way things work in the world of international free agents so it makes sense that their immediate reaction would be "okay, so what?"
Do 16 y/o kids from SA actually know "their banking information"? I'd have figured no way no how they'd have any access to any real cash.
I don't think a confession from any of the kids is going to gain them anything. Why even bother with this. They should be able to get the Red Sox to open their books, why do they need the other end.
anyway, I'm sure this will be a lead up to MLB trying to put rules around the package deals. The whole business does seem pretty slimy.
anyway, I'm sure this will be a lead up to MLB trying to put rules around the package deals. The whole business does seem pretty slimy.
If the package deals were implemented through unwritten agreements that Player A would funnel some of his money directly to Player B, then presumably that wouldn't show up in the organization's books at all, right? In fact, wouldn't that be the whole point?
Sure, but how are some kids being out of their country going to know all of the ins and outs and have access to their bank accounts?
Go to Venezuela and talk to the trainers, etc. if you're so fucking concerned. Talk to the parents, who probably have the access to the accounts. This just seems like intimidation tactics. Or I suppose a fear of ending up dead in a ditch because you're a shithead investigator trying to screw around with people's attempts to make it in MLB. (understanding what they are investigating from here, I think they would not be charitably looked upon by the families and friends, though I don't really think they would end up dead)
BTW I think the Red Sox probably skirted the rules and wouldn't be surprised if they are punished within Manfred's general ability to do so.
Both of these points are where I'm at right now. Although I'm sure the Sox aren't the only offender about skirting the rules as written, they may be one of the most active.
I'm sure this is a common practice, but the Red Sox are one of only a few teams that are subject to hard spending caps right now, and that's why MLB cares. They don't want anyone undermining the intl FA system.
If not for the spending caps, though, why would any other team do this? I think its common practice among all teams who have a spending cap, but there's no point in doing it if you have no constraints.
As long as the punishment is in line with what the Cardinals got for hacking into the Astros system I think this will be fair.
Signing bonuses up to a certain amount (I believe it's 100k) aren't counted against a teams bonus pool. So every team has a point in doing it in order to stay under their allotment for the year, although you're right that it is probably less likely that they would want to risk it.
You're thinking about the June amateur draft. We're talking about international free agents.
My guess is it has something to do with how the trainers operate. If you sign on with so-and-so at age 14, he will make sure you get hooked up with at least a 50 k bonus if any if his clients ends up a decent prospect.
I was positive that this was an international signing rule as well (and it was!) but I should have done more digging before I brought it up. International players who signed for under 50k didn't count against the bonus pool but according to the CBA that was only for the 2012-2014 signing period.
If the Sox are guilty, then clearly the right thing to do would be to suspend David Ortiz for a quarter of the season.
Yes, there are numerous cases of people confessing under pressure to things like being employees who pocketed money out of a cash register when in fact they never took anything.
Dude, we already had a deflategate "joke" in this thread. More than one is never needed.
Since this is a Venezuelan investigation, Sandoval is more likely on the hot seat. It would be a shame if the Sox lost his services and didn't have to pay him. Hey, maybe that's the plan. Genius!
Soooo... there are no rules against "package deals," except insofar as they are a means of subverting the cap?
Some updates
“@EvanDrellich: Can confirm the players have been questioned last week as BA reported, but the club has not been. https://t.co/gpJycrJ652”
“@EvanDrellich: MLB sources believe accusation of threats comes from ”people trying to cover this up.” The players aren’t the ones who would get in trouble.”
“@EvanDrellich: Fines, suspensions and loss of future signing rights are all possible outcomes of attempts to circumvent MLB’s international bonus system.”
“@EvanDrellich: Can confirm the players have been questioned last week as BA reported, but the club has not been. https://t.co/gpJycrJ652”
“@EvanDrellich: MLB sources believe accusation of threats comes from ”people trying to cover this up.” The players aren’t the ones who would get in trouble.”
“@EvanDrellich: Fines, suspensions and loss of future signing rights are all possible outcomes of attempts to circumvent MLB’s international bonus system.”
Who knows what's what yet, but that MLB statement might carry more weight if MLB investigators hadn't bulldozed through legal niceties in the past {Biogenesis}.
But the players dont know that. Thats how shit like that works. The cops show up at your door to ask some questions......."well, we wouldn't want the authorities to know that you didnt cooperate with us." LEGAL residents cower at that stuff. I can only imagine how some 17yr old trying to get out of where he is to MLB would react when asked anything by someone from MLB That's not to say there's nothing to any of this, but the bolded statement is a red herring.
It also contradicts itself in literally the next sentence, unless I suppose they're talking about suspending Dombrowski.
MLB investigators have to get access to the players bank accounts to prove anything. The fact they can intimidate players into cooperating suggests they could get the evidence they need, if indeed there was any wrong doing. For example, transfers of some of that 300K out of accounts of those players who probably don't deserve the 300K, and additional transfers into accounts from the players who probably were worth more on the open market. This still would not directly implicate the Red Sox. For that they probably need the trainer since the players would not have received any instructions direct from the Red Sox, but only the "trainer". If the trainer does not talk, MLB probably does not have much of a case against anyone but the trainer. The trainer probably gets banned and MLB looks to close this loophole, unless they just go to the draft.
If MLB wants to punish my team for too many prospect riches by leaving those riches intact and suspending a guy who doesn't work here no mo......I'm for it.
If there is any punishment (and I expect that there will be), I would not be surprised if it were announced in the next few days, given the new signing period begins Saturday.
From the link:
Baseball America will have more information on the full extent of penalties as they’re revealed. The commissioner’s office had been investigating the Red Sox over whether they signed several Venezuelan players from the same training programs last year in “package deals,” which are not uncommon for Latin American signings. The Red Sox were limited to signings of no more than $300,000 last year as a result of exceeding their bonus pool during the previous signing period.
Baseball America will have more information on the full extent of penalties as they’re revealed. The commissioner’s office had been investigating the Red Sox over whether they signed several Venezuelan players from the same training programs last year in “package deals,” which are not uncommon for Latin American signings. The Red Sox were limited to signings of no more than $300,000 last year as a result of exceeding their bonus pool during the previous signing period.
If MLB really wanted to set a precedent they should go back to 2014 and cut Rusney Castillo loose.
This is a good interview about this matter with a venezuelan agent, saying how MLB went after the kids, had them answering questions without any notification or letting their parents or agents be with them, etc (in spanish)
http://elestimulo.com/blog/peloteros-venezolanos-menores-de-edad-fueron-maltratados-por-mlb/
http://elestimulo.com/blog/peloteros-venezolanos-menores-de-edad-fueron-maltratados-por-mlb/
I can't help but wonder about "unprecedented penalties" for something that every team does, and compare it to the current lack of discipline held against the Cardinals for the hacking scandal.
Here's a thread discussing this back a month or so: http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/mlb-investigates-red-sox-over-international-signings.14098/
This is one thing I still just cannot fathom. The Cardinals committed a federal crime, and not just a non-baseball related federal crime. Things that directly impacted the competition among teams in MLB.
And.....nothing. Nothing at all. The guy involved pled guilty back in January. No word from MLB.
The leagues are consistent. They care much more about their own rules and bylaws than they do the law of the land. This is why deflated footballs are more scandalous than beating your girlfriend and why taking steroids is worse than killing someone in a DUI. If MLB had a no hacking rule written into the CBA and their own rules, then they'd be on top of it.
Penalties should be announced later today or tomorrow. I believe the Red Sox signed 20 players from Venezuela last year, including ranked-internationals Alberto Guaimaro and Simon Muzziotti. I would not be surprised if Guaimaro and Muzziotti (and every other Venezuelan signed last year) are declared free agents and I would be even less surprised if the Red Sox are shut out of Venezuela for at least the upcoming signing year.
Buster Olney @Buster_ESPN 1m1 minute ago
Boston will not be allowed to sign any international amateurs during the 2016-17 b/c of violations, and contracts of players involved voided
Boston will not be allowed to sign any international amateurs during the 2016-17 b/c of violations, and contracts of players involved voided
Buster Olney @Buster_ESPN 5m5 minutes ago
Boston will not be allowed to sign any international amateurs during the 2016-17 b/c of violations, and contracts of players involved voided
Boston will not be allowed to sign any international amateurs during the 2016-17 b/c of violations, and contracts of players involved voided
Buster Olney @Buster_ESPN 2m2 minutes ago
Contracts of five BOS prospects voided, including including OFs Simon Muzziotti, Albert Guaimaro, P Cesar Gonzalez, INF Antonio Pinero.
Contracts of five BOS prospects voided, including including OFs Simon Muzziotti, Albert Guaimaro, P Cesar Gonzalez, INF Antonio Pinero.
Buster Olney @Buster_ESPN 2m2 minutes ago
Contracts of five BOS prospects voided, including including OFs Simon Muzziotti, Albert Guaimaro, P Cesar Gonzalez, INF Antonio Pinero.
Contracts of five BOS prospects voided, including including OFs Simon Muzziotti, Albert Guaimaro, P Cesar Gonzalez, INF Antonio Pinero.
But no CBA can specifically mention every single possible way teams or players can break the rules. So you have some general guidelines. I mean, isn't it completely ludicrous that a team can actually commit a federal crime whereby one club hacks the database of another club, but the league can't do anything about it because it's not specifically mentioned in the CBA?