Eduardo Rodriguez optioned to Triple A

The Gray Eagle

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We know he has had problems with tipping his pitches in the past, is it possible he was tipping again? Perhaps the alterations he has made to his pitching motion to protect the knee caused the pitch tipping to resurface? He looked like he was trending upward in his start vs the White Sox...and then this crap fest against the Tampa Bay flacid batsmen?
Brimac in Projo says yes, he is still tipping his pitches.

"Eduardo Rodriguez is still tipping pitches.

The focus for Rodriguez during his stint with Triple-A Pawtucket, however long it lasts, will be to break the habits that leave him repeatedly broadcasting his intentions to opposing hitters and to develop new habits that allow him to pitch without having to think about tipping.

"It's no secret -- hitters know what's coming," Red Sox pitching coach Carl Willis said. "He has worked on it extensively during bullpen sessions, dry work periods. He makes progress. He shows the ability to make those adjustments. However, when the game begins and the game situations start and his focus gears more toward the attack of the hitter, the old habits resurface."
 

geoduck no quahog

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I hope they make certain that the opposition in AAA knows exactly what to look for with the tipping. Since there's not as much video scouting in the minors - the Pawsox should go out of their way to test any revised delivery against knowledgeable hitters. He's not going to fix it otherwise.
 

barbed wire Bob

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I hope they make certain that the opposition in AAA knows exactly what to look for with the tipping. Since there's not as much video scouting in the minors - the Pawsox should go out of their way to test any revised delivery against knowledgeable hitters. He's not going to fix it otherwise.
You could have the Pawsox catcher be on the lookout for tipping pitches. If he sees the tip then he could let the batter know what's coming al la Bull Durham.
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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Brimac in Projo says yes, he is still tipping his pitches.

"Eduardo Rodriguez is still tipping pitches.

The focus for Rodriguez during his stint with Triple-A Pawtucket, however long it lasts, will be to break the habits that leave him repeatedly broadcasting his intentions to opposing hitters and to develop new habits that allow him to pitch without having to think about tipping.

"It's no secret -- hitters know what's coming," Red Sox pitching coach Carl Willis said. "He has worked on it extensively during bullpen sessions, dry work periods. He makes progress. He shows the ability to make those adjustments. However, when the game begins and the game situations start and his focus gears more toward the attack of the hitter, the old habits resurface."
Finally, a scrap of a hint from the coaching staff about what's going wrong with the starting pitching. Willis just basically confirmed that Sox starters are being actively taught to give their primary focus during games toward countering the "attack of the hitter."

That's probably about as much insider-based confirmation about how the Sox strategizes during pitchers' meetings as we'll ever get. But it there's also the context of Willis's later quote in the article that when EdRo's "focus turns to the glove, it obviously takes focus from pitch location and attacking the hitter."

This is fully consistent with the story we got about how Price's adjustment of his mechanical check-points (like glove location) was suggested by Pedroia rather than the coaching staff. Focus on "pitch location and attacking the hitter" while identifying the "attack of the hitter" is being coached as a greater priority than maintaining focus on those mechanical check-points which allow each next pitch to be executed the best it can.

The only starter who can't buy into such a strategy and actually has to focus entirely on the execution of each pitch rather than out-guessing the batter is Steven Wright.

Those starters who haven't mastered their own mechanics yet to achieve command consistently -- and I'm looking at Owens and Kelly here, as well as EdRo -- are getting lit up.

Those starters who have generally mastered the consistency of their own mechanics with consistent command -- Porcello, Buchholz, and Price -- are able to employ this strategy, but are still suffering heightened HR/9 rates.

It fits very neatly, if you think about the HR rates as being linked to the pitcher "guessing wrong" about how to attack the guy at the plate.
 

Green (Tongued) Monster

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Finally, a scrap of a hint from the coaching staff about what's going wrong with the starting pitching. Willis just basically confirmed that Sox starters are being actively taught to give their primary focus during games toward countering the "attack of the hitter."

That's probably about as much insider-based confirmation about how the Sox strategizes during pitchers' meetings as we'll ever get. But it there's also the context of Willis's later quote in the article that when EdRo's "focus turns to the glove, it obviously takes focus from pitch location and attacking the hitter."

This is fully consistent with the story we got about how Price's adjustment of his mechanical check-points (like glove location) was suggested by Pedroia rather than the coaching staff. Focus on "pitch location and attacking the hitter" while identifying the "attack of the hitter" is being coached as a greater priority than maintaining focus on those mechanical check-points which allow each next pitch to be executed the best it can.

The only starter who can't buy into such a strategy and actually has to focus entirely on the execution of each pitch rather than out-guessing the batter is Steven Wright.

Those starters who haven't mastered their own mechanics yet to achieve command consistently -- and I'm looking at Owens and Kelly here, as well as EdRo -- are getting lit up.

Those starters who have generally mastered the consistency of their own mechanics with consistent command -- Porcello, Buchholz, and Price -- are able to employ this strategy, but are still suffering heightened HR/9 rates.

It fits very neatly, if you think about the HR rates as being linked to the pitcher "guessing wrong" about how to attack the guy at the plate.
Why was he left in to surrender nine runs in his last start if he was still tipping his pitches?

How many visits to the mound did Willis or Leon make during those 2+ innings to make him aware of it?

Eduardo's results so far this year are pointing towards a pretty damning indictment of the coaching staff.
 

vintage'67

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Finally, a scrap of a hint from the coaching staff about what's going wrong with the starting pitching. Willis just basically confirmed that Sox starters are being actively taught to give their primary focus during games toward countering the "attack of the hitter."

That's probably about as much insider-based confirmation about how the Sox strategizes during pitchers' meetings as we'll ever get. But it there's also the context of Willis's later quote in the article that when EdRo's "focus turns to the glove, it obviously takes focus from pitch location and attacking the hitter."

This is fully consistent with the story we got about how Price's adjustment of his mechanical check-points (like glove location) was suggested by Pedroia rather than the coaching staff. Focus on "pitch location and attacking the hitter" while identifying the "attack of the hitter" is being coached as a greater priority than maintaining focus on those mechanical check-points which allow each next pitch to be executed the best it can.

The only starter who can't buy into such a strategy and actually has to focus entirely on the execution of each pitch rather than out-guessing the batter is Steven Wright.

Those starters who haven't mastered their own mechanics yet to achieve command consistently -- and I'm looking at Owens and Kelly here, as well as EdRo -- are getting lit up.

Those starters who have generally mastered the consistency of their own mechanics with consistent command -- Porcello, Buchholz, and Price -- are able to employ this strategy, but are still suffering heightened HR/9 rates.

It fits very neatly, if you think about the HR rates as being linked to the pitcher "guessing wrong" about how to attack the guy at the plate.
Buzzkill, I'm not sure you are reading that quote correctly. I took at as, when he focusses on tippinng in bullpen sessions, he can improve/fix it. When he gets in the heat of competition, and cannot focus only on not tipping, the old habits crop up. I think Willis is talking about different environments affecting mechanics/tipping, not strategy .
 

barbed wire Bob

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Buzzkill, I'm not sure you are reading that quote correctly. I took at as, when he focusses on tippinng in bullpen sessions, he can improve/fix it. When he gets in the heat of competition, and cannot focus only on not tipping, the old habits crop up. I think Willis is talking about different environments affecting mechanics/tipping, not strategy .
That's how I read it.
 

Harry Hooper

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It fits very neatly, if you think about the HR rates as being linked to the pitcher "guessing wrong" about how to attack the guy at the plate.
The HR rates to me are much more linked to grooving pitches over the heart of the plate way too often.
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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Buzzkill, I'm not sure you are reading that quote correctly. I took at as, when he focusses on tippinng in bullpen sessions, he can improve/fix it. When he gets in the heat of competition, and cannot focus only on not tipping, the old habits crop up. I think Willis is talking about different environments affecting mechanics/tipping, not strategy .
I don't think we're actually reading it any differently. I also think that's what Willis meant to be talking about. However, the way he was talking about performance in games seemed revealing...much more so than usual.

So I'm taking it one step farther, though, and introducing two other data points which are generally consistent. The first is our information about David Price's mechanical adjustments this season. The second is the statistical body of work for the starters.

Because the way Willis talked about the expectations for EdRo's game focus makes those three pieces fit together. Willis is basically confirming that EdRo's primary focus during games is supposed to be "attacking the hitter" or countering the "attack of the hitter" instead of mechanical checkpoints which would control things like pitch tipping (or leg-kick height and glove raise).

But that's placing a focus outside what a pitcher can control; it relies on making a good guess about what the batter wants. By doing this, Willis is admitting the coaches expect some of the starter's focus to be drawn away from his mechanics, which is both entirely within the pitcher's control and the foundation for pitching with command.

The kicker is that the one guy who can't waste time focusing on the hitter, but who has to retain focus on his mechanics instead, is the best pitcher in the rotation.
 

Detts

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I hope they make certain that the opposition in AAA knows exactly what to look for with the tipping. Since there's not as much video scouting in the minors - the Pawsox should go out of their way to test any revised delivery against knowledgeable hitters. He's not going to fix it otherwise.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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I don't get that at all from the Willis quote. Not even close.
Yeah, I just thought he was saying (in layman's terms) that in the heat of competition the adrenaline starts pumping and EdRo forgets what he's learned.

Also, I didn't read "attack of the hitter" as meaning "the hitter's attack against you." I thought it was simply a slightly awkward way of saying "attack on the hitter.".
 

uncannymanny

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The catcher is still putting down a sign though, so are you thinking that the pitcher is shaking off those signs and worrying about pitch selection? If not there shouldn't be any focus needed but to execute the pitch the catcher calls for which, other than game intensity, seems pretty much the same as the bullpen work.

Edit: that said, Carl Willis is obviously not pushing the right buttons in his daily work.
 

alwyn96

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I guess they could consider firing Willis, but they just fired Nieves last year. I doubt cycling through a third pitching coach in two years would make much difference or be very positive. It seems like the problem might be more with the players.
 

uncannymanny

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Price wasn't here last year. It may not be the pitching coach but there's something organizational amiss with how they are preparing pitchers (see: inning, first).
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Price wasn't here last year. It may not be the pitching coach but there's something organizational amiss with how they are preparing pitchers (see: inning, first).
I know they've had first inning issues the last couple weeks, but has it been a consistent problem since day one of the season? I don't recall it being so blatantly the case in April and May.

For the season, the team has allowed 54 runs in the first inning. They've also allowed 54 runs in the third inning and 55 runs in the fourth inning. Those are their three worst innings in terms of runs allowed.

Going deeper, their BA/OBP/SLG against in the first inning is .314/.379/.506. That's the worst inning for all three of those stats.

Here's where it gets really interesting...BABIP against. In the first inning, the team BABIP is .363. The next highest inning for BABIP is .326 in the third inning. Overall, the team BABIP against is .297.

Is all that simply a product of the very best hitters in the opposing lineup always getting PAs in the first inning? Or is it poor pre-game prep/warm up? Is it the defense being slow to get rolling and defending more poorly early in the game?
 

uncannymanny

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Thanks for grabbing those numbers. It backs up a lot of what my eyes have seen. I wish I knew enough about getting pitchfx charts to looks at pitch "quality" by inning. The eye test, having seen most every game, tells me that the quality and location of pitches has been abysmal in the first inning (flat breaking stuff/middle middle/etc). I think there really may be something to the argument about what the pitchers are focused on because it sure as hell looks like they're not focused a lot of the time. I'd love to hear what the daily routine for the starting pitcher is and how it compares to some teams that are getting above expected value out of their staff.

Edit: just took a quick look at the team splits. Something that jumps out is the SP is better the more times they go through the order. Isn't this generally the opposite (the pitcher gets exposed the more times through the order)?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/split.cgi?t=p&team=BOS&year=2016#times
 
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alwyn96

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Edit: just took a quick look at the team splits. Something that jumps out is the SP is better the more times they go through the order. Isn't this generally the opposite (the pitcher gets exposed the more times through the order)?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/split.cgi?t=p&team=BOS&year=2016#times
A possible explanation for that is selection or survivor bias, in that pitching late into a game is conditional on pitching well enough to not get taken out early. If you looked at only those performances where a pitcher faced a batter 3+ times, you'd probably be more likely to see the expected relationship.
 
A few years ago, the LA Times had an interesting article about pitching coaches.

A couple of interesting quotes:
  • Some pitching coaches say their job title is misleading because, with countless hours of video work, tedious bullpen sessions and long game-planning meetings, they spend very little time coaching pitching.
  • Watching video, Honeycutt looks for hitters' "chase zones" — areas where hitters will reach for a pitch that often results in a swing and a miss. And he studies how hitters react on certain pitch counts.
  • "Sometimes pitchers are the worst evaluators on their stuff. We talk to the catchers as much, if not more, than the pitchers during a game."
That last quote was especially interesting, as the article described how Rick Honeycutt would funnel suggestions on mechanical issues through the catcher.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Teams have moved towards having two hitting coaches to split the workload. Why have they seemingly not done the same with pitching coaches?

Edit: or have they and the Sox just haven't followed suit?
 

mauf

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Teams have moved towards having two hitting coaches to split the workload. Why have they seemingly not done the same with pitching coaches?

Edit: or have they and the Sox just haven't followed suit?
I assume that bullpen coaches are expected to do more than police the spitting of sunflower seeds these days, so they already have two coaches for the pitching staff.
 

alwyn96

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I assume that bullpen coaches are expected to do more than police the spitting of sunflower seeds these days, so they already have two coaches for the pitching staff.
I would image the bullpen catcher is sort of a de facto coach as well. I'm not sure how many different opinions you'd want to be throwing at a young guy, but there's probably no shortage of them.
 
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Papelbon's Poutine

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I assume that bullpen coaches are expected to do more than police the spitting of sunflower seeds these days, so they already have two coaches for the pitching staff.
OK, than three. If the pitching coaches are spending "very little time coaching pitching" - as the article suggests - than something's F'ed up.