The sixers and building a winner

Status
Not open for further replies.

LondonSox

Robert the Deuce
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,956
North Bay California
Yeah I think that would be interesting, I'm thinking more of a base defensive lineup, he may well be the primary ball handler.

That is one reason I didn't like the idea of paying too much for Dunn, you can go a different way with Simmons and have a secondary handler who is more a 3&D type. Which is different from a primary creator type PG.
 

gammoseditor

also had a stroke
SoSH Member
Jul 17, 2005
4,229
Somerville, MA
Makes me wonder if there's something us laypeople are missing about Noel that NBA scouts really hate.
I think it's the economics. You have to give up talent to get him and be willing to give him a max deal in a year. If you're not competing for the title this year you can keep your talent and give the max to someone else. If the cap wasn't so high and most teams were at or over the cap I think he'd be more desirable.
 

bowiac

Caveat: I know nothing about what I speak
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 18, 2003
12,945
New York, NY
I do think a lot of people overlook Noel's offensive warts a bit too much. He's a real problem there. The terrible Sixers context makes it really hard to give it too much weight, but he graded out soundly below average on RPM for instance because his offensive game is just that terrible for instance. He seems to fit the prototype of the rim protecting center, there's a case that his offensive game is so raw as to not make it worthwhile. Plus, he didn't really show much development there this year, although again, the Sixers are a really rough context in which to evaluate a guy.

I'd still love to have him, since I think he can be used much better, but I see why there's less of a market for him than one might expect. The example that comes to mind (and is consistent with Ujiri's pursuit) is Biyombo, who was a year older last year, but otherwise was another young, athletic rim protector with a really terrible offensive game. I think Noel is probably toolsier than even Biyombo, but it's telling Biyombo only got a 1 year deal for $3M. Now that looked like a great bargain even at the time, but it's a sign that the super-extreme min/maxed skillset isn't something GMs are falling over themselves to get.
 

ElcaballitoMVP

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 19, 2008
3,936
And is that an indictment of the Colangelos, or is Toronto trying to rip the Sixers off?
Everyone knows Philly wants/needs to move a big man, so they aren't going to get full value. Add to that, any team trading for Noel is looking at a costly extension at the end of the year, and it's no surprise that the offers aren't anything special.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 2, 2007
4,932
East Village, NYC
Everyone knows Philly wants/needs to move a big man, so they aren't going to get full value. Add to that, any team trading for Noel is looking at a costly extension at the end of the year, and it's no surprise that the offers aren't anything special.
Which is my point. Noel is worth more than Terrance Ross. He's worth more than Jeff Teague with one year left before UFA. That GMs are trying to acquire Noel when the market's advantageous for them to do so isn't an indictment on how they value Noel.

And, because I can read nighthob's mind, before you babble something incoherent about how no GM is going to mortgage their future to acquire Noel, you have to quote where I, or anybody else, said anything of the sort.

My point was, and continues to be, that if Philly's going to make some panic trade where they deal Noel for a league average role player because of roster construction, they're making a mistake.
 

cheech13

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 5, 2006
1,608
Toronto's pursuit of Noel doesn't tell us anything about his actual value. Zach Lowe said that they want him to fill the Biyombo role. On one hand, Biyombo made $3 milllion last year to play 20 minutes a game as a back up. On the other hand, he's going to get $16 to $18 million this summer. Very wide spread on what a "Biyombo" even is in today's game.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,241
Everyone knows Philly wants/needs to move a big man, so they aren't going to get full value. Add to that, any team trading for Noel is looking at a costly extension at the end of the year, and it's no surprise that the offers aren't anything special.
This is spot on and what I've been saying since we began discussing the Okafor/Noel trade opportunities. While Noel's offensive repertoire leaves a lot of questios as bowiac noted, it is that he's never been in an actual NBA system to truly know how his game is progressing while competing most of the season against teams who are taking the night off against the Sixers. Between this unknown and the contract it's going to require to retain him there is a much larger cost and risk with Noel compared to Okafor who you have on a rookie deal for 3 more years.......as opposed to a max/near max of 4 years for Noel. His trade value is hurt by both of these factors.
 

LondonSox

Robert the Deuce
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,956
North Bay California
The fit makes it weird that they are trying seemingly to move Noel, or it's that smart GMs want Noel and not Okafor of course.
Simmons and Saric can both play next to Noel, I just don't see how Saric and Okafor works defensively just at all, and I don't know Okafor with Simmons is great either. I don't get it. Noel is fine as a defensive center who doesn't need the ball and should be very efficient as he will get lobs, put backs and the like. That's fine. It's not exciting but it's fine if he can anchor the defence.
Okafor is the problem to me. I think he's great offensively but that's not the immediate issue at all. The fact no one seems interested given 3 years of cheap control is surprising. Or the Sixers are higher on him perhaps for some reason.
 

bowiac

Caveat: I know nothing about what I speak
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 18, 2003
12,945
New York, NY
I don't think Simmons can play with Noel. Or at least, not yet. You're just creating a lot of the same spacing issues they had before, with Okafor/Noel.
 

LondonSox

Robert the Deuce
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,956
North Bay California
I don't know that's true. It's a concern of course, I can see a lot of lobs to Noel and slashes and dives to the rim.
But there are concerns for sure esp unless Simmons can shoot. But defensively it looks OK.

I'm more focused on that as I have no idea how they will play offensively yet.

Edit
And if Simmons is playing essentially point, and there are three shooters. I think that's a lot less of a problem than Noel and Okafor.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,241
The fit makes it weird that they are trying seemingly to move Noel, or it's that smart GMs want Noel and not Okafor of course.
Simmons and Saric can both play next to Noel, I just don't see how Saric and Okafor works defensively just at all, and I don't know Okafor with Simmons is great either. I don't get it. Noel is fine as a defensive center who doesn't need the ball and should be very efficient as he will get lobs, put backs and the like. That's fine. It's not exciting but it's fine if he can anchor the defence.
Okafor is the problem to me. I think he's great offensively but that's not the immediate issue at all. The fact no one seems interested given 3 years of cheap control is surprising. Or the Sixers are higher on him perhaps for some reason.
There really isn't any urgency to do anything this summer aside from the imprint Colangelo surely wants to make on the team which could come in the form of Barnes or Crabbe along with a stabilizing veteran PG........someone along the lines of Brandon Jennings or E'Twaun Moore to pair with Ish Smith assuming he is brought back. I really like Moore in this mix as that would allow for Simmons to blend in time as a point forward when they are on the floor together.

Noel's value reminds me that of Rondo's his final year here when you know the player is either a rental or you have to commit a ton of money to a player that you aren't sure of him being a fit. For that reason I wouldn't mind holding off until the mid-season deadline as his value may INCREASE as a piece on a playoff team at that time for a team viewing him as a pure rental similar to Rondo. Let all the bigs compete for minutes there will be plenty as Embiid isn't going to get more than 25 mpg even if he is healthy. It's not ideal but you aren't worried about wins/losses this year anyway.


Toronto's pursuit of Noel doesn't tell us anything about his actual value. Zach Lowe said that they want him to fill the Biyombo role. On one hand, Biyombo made $3 milllion last year to play 20 minutes a game as a back up. On the other hand, he's going to get $16 to $18 million this summer. Very wide spread on what a "Biyombo" even is in today's game.
This is how Noel's contract status, the new market, and Noel's future role create confusion. Right now, Noel's role on a playoff team is that of an Amir Johnson-type which is ironically the same role Amir had in Toronto two years ago. If you project Noel to grow into more than you can extend him to the large contract......however if you feel this is the player he will be there has to be more hesitation.
 

LondonSox

Robert the Deuce
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,956
North Bay California
I agree there is no need to make a move here unless there is a fit. Embiid is going to be eased in. It's really two starters early.

I also agree I like Moore as a potential fit.

I doubt ish will be back. Unless they completely strike out. I'd rather overpay dellavedova for the d and very good catch and shoot stats. A vet or a placeholder either way. They don't need to be a star primary handler given Simmons likely role. But you don't want Simmons overworked as a rookie. It's a perfect time to overpay mediocrity for the short 1-2 year area.

There's no NEED to make splash Bryan! Embiid, Simmons, luwawu and Saric is all the splash you could need surely.
 

LondonSox

Robert the Deuce
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,956
North Bay California
Jayed Bayless for 3/27
HUH pretty cautiously happy about that. Given the money flying around not too much or too long. Has been in a similar role for giannis as he will for Simmons. Good shooter last year, but has been up and down.

It's a good fit. Not bad contract. Good
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,241
Jayed Bayless for 3/27
HUH pretty cautiously happy about that. Given the money flying around not too much or too long. Has been in a similar role for giannis as he will for Simmons. Good shooter last year, but has been up and down.

It's a good fit. Not bad contract. Good
I was looking at this name with intrigue when I ran down the FA list of guards. He does pretty much what Moore would do in being a scoring PG who should blend well with Simmons as an initiator. Solid get. I like the 3 years as this makes him a real movable deal for a team in dire need of creating some tradeable salary slots for future deals.
 

LondonSox

Robert the Deuce
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,956
North Bay California
Yeah seems surprising in hindsight that he wasn't mentioned before as seems pretty ideal, and the experience of already working with a Simmons like point like giannis. I like it.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,241
Here's a name I just heard this morning when texting buddy of mine who is D-League coach working with a summer league team. Rondo to the Sixers for the max or close to it? Good lord it really is silly season if this is true.

The text said, "Looks like your boy Rondo may get his max after all in Philly. Close to it anyway."
 

DannyDarwinism

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 7, 2007
4,896
There's no way Rondo approaches the max, even in this market, right? RIGHT?!?

It's hard to think of a worse fit for the Sixers than a mercurial point guard who can't shoot and is a solid negative on defense these days. How could he play with Simmons? Why would you want to even try?

The Bayless signing was reasonable and made a ton of sense, fit-wise. Signing Rondo at all would be the opposite of that. Committing real money to him would be monumentally stupid.

Rondo, Simmons, Luwawu, Noel, Okafor should make for some great alley-oops, and I guess it'd be interesting to see a revival of the box-and-one defense in the NBA.

Edit- Huh, Rondo actually shot a career best 36.5% from three last year. I can't imagine that's sustainable, but it's still a lot better than I expected.
 
Last edited:

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,241
There's no way Rondo approaches the max, even in this market, right? RIGHT?!?

It's hard to think of a worse fit for the Sixers than a mercurial point guard who can't shoot and is a solid negative on defense these days. How could he play with Simmons? Why would you want to even try?

The Bayless signing was reasonable and made a ton of sense, fit-wise. Signing Rondo at all would be the opposite of that. Committing real money to him would be monumentally stupid.
I cannot discuss this awful NBA player rationally. Now just imagine how I felt when people used to say they wouldn't trade him for Russell Westbrook.



I posed a followup question on the source which I'll pass on.
 

LondonSox

Robert the Deuce
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,956
North Bay California
Rondo is the absolute worst fit I can imagine. What a joke. All the good work I have been impressed and surprised by undone in a heartbeat. One year fine. Multi year a d I might lose my mind. Esp as they already signed a pg veteran who fits! Why?
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,241
Rondo is the absolute worst fit I can imagine. What a joke. All the good work I have been impressed and surprised by undone in a heartbeat. One year fine. Multi year a d I might lose my mind. Esp as they already signed a pg veteran who fits! Why?
This posted 20 minutes ago.........I don't know what it says as I had to x-out of the page following that first sentence. ;)

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/sports/sixers/Sixers-reportedly-interested-in-Rajon-Rondo.html
 

Jed Zeppelin

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2008
51,476
KG's D transcends time and space to continue making his teammates look better than they are.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,241
Amazing. I have had people on various forums etc arguing Rondo is good defensively and his shooting isn't a huge issue. Crazy
So glad I'm not on those forums for sanity purposes.

Heard back as to the source. Apparently a player on the Spurs summer league team or someone who was working out with them shares the same agent as Rondo and somehow it came up. That's how we break things on SoSH lol. The Rondo to Philly talk is now gaining steam..........

http://www.csnphilly.com/philadelphia-76ers/anti-rajon-rondo-sixers-fans-should-consider-these-5-points
 

LondonSox

Robert the Deuce
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,956
North Bay California
The only thing I find hopeful is that they already signed a pg, so the urgency seems unclear. I don't really care or a 1-2 year type. That would be annoying but relatively less scary.

Signing him for 3-4 years would make my head explode.

Also everyone reporting it locally has fallen for every false story designed to drive values up. So fingers crossed this is another. But shit. Please God.
 

DannyDarwinism

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 7, 2007
4,896
Not quite the square peg that I think Rondo would be, but Crawford doesn't make much sense to me either. At least he can shoot and create, but given that he's 36, I wonder what the years would be:

 

LondonSox

Robert the Deuce
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,956
North Bay California
I don't hate Crawford on a 2 yeah deal. Shooting some good veteran locker room presence. Which apparently is important.
If it's one or two years the money is largely a shrug. They literally can't spend it to get over the floor. As long as it's not impacting the point where you need to extend people or can sign actual free agents.

If it's 3-4 years yeah why would you
 

LondonSox

Robert the Deuce
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,956
North Bay California
So Crawford back to Clippers for 3/42 too long. Rondo to Chicago too.
Didn't mine Crawford cheap. That's not cheap. Didn't want to Rondo at all, and that price suggests they werent bidding hard.

Seth curry is meant to be being made a Ufa. I'd be on him and I'd offer Crabbe whatever you probably don't get him, worst case you drive the price up for Portland.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,241
I watched quite a bit of Blazer games last year and I gotta say that I'm not impressed with Allen Crabbe. He matches up ok with 2/3's defensively, nothing special. Offensively he isn't a creator and got much of his stuff off Dame/CJ when the team didn't have any frontcourt scoring option. Good shooter but there are a lot of good shooters....and he doesn't give you a whole lot else. I'd pass all day on paying mediocrity (maybe less than mediocrity) 4/$70m.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,241
Don't disagree but I fear they want SOMEONE and there are worse options.
I wouldn't mind a worse option for this season rather than tying up what could end up being one of the worst FA contract out there for 4 years. With summer trade season not even underway yet there should be better value out there. I'm not a Gerald Henderson guy but he would be a good stop-gap fit on a shorter deal.

Excited to see Simmons debut in about 4 hours.


EDIT: Or bring Sergio Rodriguez back to the league for 1/$8m. There ya go.
 
Last edited:

LondonSox

Robert the Deuce
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,956
North Bay California
This Rodriguez move seems, and I haven't seen much tape yet, a good move. Short term, cheap but a veteran. Scouting the Stat line but looks like a shooter, last 4 years averaged around 400 from 3, in Europe, and over 80% at the line. And more attempts from 3 than 2. Not huge assist numbers but low turnover, and easy to find examples of some great passes. So this plus low turnovers is encouraging.

Bottom line Bayless and Rodriguez are good seeming fits without blocking anyone down the line and without putting a big money overpay for the sake of it.

Wow. Now just avoid waiters.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
71,085
Obviously it's no gamble at all at 1/8, but Rodriguez couldn't really play in the league at 24, is there a reason to think he can at 30? I know he's done really well in Europe, just saying he does have a NBA history and it's not good.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,241
Obviously it's no gamble at all at 1/8, but Rodriguez couldn't really play in the league at 24, is there a reason to think he can at 30? I know he's done really well in Europe, just saying he does have a NBA history and it's not good.
Yes there are a couple of factors that play in his favor. He had his first opportunity in Portland at 22 when he wasn't really physically ready then his second year playing was in a pair of dysfunctional situations in Sacramento and with the Knicks. Since then SergRod has gained strength and is much more experienced as a player. I also don't feel he was that bad of an NBA player back then......I'd imagine he is overall a better player today so he should be more than capable of playing rotation minutes.
 

LondonSox

Robert the Deuce
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,956
North Bay California
I have just watched a few tapes. It looks like his shot is a bit quirky but the release looks fast.

Passing looks very good. Some nice moves attacking the rim, though he's going to struggle finishing there with a lack of ups.

Defense is much on tape, but doesn't look good. He's smart enough, but I would be nervous he can keep in front of an authentic aggressive pg.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,241
At the end of the day filling out the roster/rotation in 2016-17 isn't that big a deal as you'll have a decent mix of youth and some veterans from where it was last year at this time. The real news of the day is that Simmons looked like a beast of a man among boys in his first summer league game. Instinctually on another level from anyone on the floor in a game that has 7 first-round draft picks playing in it. He made several Magic-like passes and even squared up and hit a mid-range jumper looking comfortable doing so.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
30,684
Magic-like? I was going to say Bird-like. That being said, Simmons has this aggressive way of getting he ball to another player taht I've not really seen before.

And the pass just before he came out - he was driving down the lane and threw it over his head but exactly into the receiver's hands, was jaw-dropping. He'll be fin to watch. The best passing rookie since LeBron?
 

luckiestman

Son of the Harpy
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
32,762
Magic-like? I was going to say Bird-like. That being said, Simmons has this aggressive way of getting he ball to another player taht I've not really seen before.

And the pass just before he came out - he was driving down the lane and threw it over his head but exactly into the receiver's hands, was jaw-dropping. He'll be fin to watch. The best passing rookie since LeBron?

That pass was some Bird level shit
 

LondonSox

Robert the Deuce
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
8,956
North Bay California
Yeah there's a lot of those kind of passes that show up on his scouting tapes. It's impressive. They really show he knows exactly where everyone is etc. Kind of insane for a rookie and a guy his size.
Re he doesn't like to defend, I think it's 10 foul summer league, I am not super worried about it here, but this is one of the two things that will be is he good or great. He has the lateral quicks for good D, his wingspan is small for his height but he's rebounding looks good. I think he's going to be a 3/4 defensively. Maybe he can live with some 2s. But it's effort etc we'll need to see. He's got the ability, I think.
I get the sense he's very very competitive, so I'm dubious he will slack off when it matters, I would worry for blow outs etc (of which there will still be plenty improvement overall or no)

I do think this team will be a bit Wolves lite this year. A lot of fun, a lot to get excited about but waaaay to young to win much. But something every game for the highlights.
Add potentially two more lottery picks next year and still all the cap space, this time next year the band wagon could be very crowded.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,241
Solid get right there in Henderson.

Re Simmons defense.......last winter I watched him coast defensively for entire games. I thought it was the seemingly dysfunctional team he was on but as the leader (albeit a freshman leader) you'd like to see him take more pride in his defensive effort. The "he doesn't like to guard" thing is real.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.