I like Margot's future and he is one of the youngest players in AAA, but the PCL is a hitters' league and El Paso a hitters' park. The entire El Paso team is hitting .308/.362/.490 right now.
Pitching Targets
- Thread starter nvalvo
- Start date
The last 5 starts for the Red Sox staff:
Porcello - 4 ER/5.1 innings, 3.93 ERA
Price - 6 ER/2.1 innings, 4.69 ERA
Wright - 3 ER out of 8 runs/4.3 innings, 2.18 ERA
Buch - 4 ER out of 5 runs/5.1 innings, 5.90 ERA
ERod - Currently 5 ER in the first inning/ +7 ERA
I guess my concern about selling off some of the young studs for Teheran is that this team is going to need more than just his arm. I think there are too many flaws. I think the real question might be what's better for the next few years? Holding on to the likes of Benny and Yoan? Or lose one/both of them for Teheran's friendly contract?
Porcello - 4 ER/5.1 innings, 3.93 ERA
Price - 6 ER/2.1 innings, 4.69 ERA
Wright - 3 ER out of 8 runs/4.3 innings, 2.18 ERA
Buch - 4 ER out of 5 runs/5.1 innings, 5.90 ERA
ERod - Currently 5 ER in the first inning/ +7 ERA
I guess my concern about selling off some of the young studs for Teheran is that this team is going to need more than just his arm. I think there are too many flaws. I think the real question might be what's better for the next few years? Holding on to the likes of Benny and Yoan? Or lose one/both of them for Teheran's friendly contract?
I get this sentiment completely, and I agree w/r/t this year's trade deadline. But there's no two ways about it: the Sox have a poor pitching staff all through their organization. Clearly, at minimum, not good enough to contend for anything in particular. What do you do to improve the pitching? There's no one in the pipeline and there's no one on the free agent market in the forseeable future. Do you cross your fingers/ tread water for all of '16 and '17 just to keep Moncada and Benintendi? I do get that approach, but I wouldn't be so sure it actually is realistic.
I think they do make a trade or two at the deadline with a longer-term goal of improving the pitching in mind, and then look to go and get some more in the offseason. Agreed, however, that this 2016 team isn't just a trade or two away.
At this point I think there might be a chance he comes back as a starter. 5 innings of Workman cannot possibly be any worse than this.
I'm depressed. Maybe we should be talking about selling again unless at least one of Buchholz or Rodriguez has a string of quality starts between now and the deadline, along with no more absolute stink bombs from Price. The only thing worse than fading prospects for rentals to make the playoffs, is selling prospects for rentals and not making the playoffs anyway.
Seriously... Do we have the worst pitching coach and staff in history? Or the worst rotation ever? Will Gray or Teheran turn into a pumpkin as soon as they put on the sox uniform? Something is not right- I feel that another coach could at least squeeze some half decent results out of these guys...
The only starter who's exceeded expectation is the one guy who doesn't do any game planning about how to attack hitters.
Yes, we have legitimate concerns about the sustainability of the team this season, not to mention its ability to win anything in October. But panic selling? We have a one-game lead in the WC.
Also, what non-core player would be attractive to other teams even if there were panic selling? Holt? Chili Davis?
Is perhaps this indicative of an advanced scouting issue along with a coaching issue. Correlation does not equal causation but I hope that all aspects are being re-thought at this stage.
Good point. There is one, but it would be heresy.
The realistic answer is Tazawa, maybe Uehara if he can stop imploding for a month. Chris Young maybe, especially if Brentz keeps showing he can maybe be the short side of a platoon for 1/10th the cost. Holt is an option if Hernandez keeps hitting decently.
Last edited:
Alex Speier @alexspeier 19m19 minutes ago
Farrell on rotation: 'To say that someone else is going to walk through that door from another organization, I’m not banking on that.'
Farrell on rotation: 'To say that someone else is going to walk through that door from another organization, I’m not banking on that.'
And the best adjustment a pitcher has made all season was suggested by the second baseman.
I admittedly did not see much of Kimbrel before he was signed here, was his fastball command typically this erratic?
Eff it, take a salary dump from MIN and PHI and take on Santana and Hellboy. They might not be great but they shouldn't cost much and they can't possibly be worse than what is getting run out there right now. And someone call Dave Duncan and get his ass out of retirement.
The problem is that some of these problems are temporary problems that would go away if we could just get a redo on the whole season. Someone like Teheran would be here for several seasons so acquiring them and missing out on the playoffs this season wouldn't necessarily be a total failure.
If we started 2017 with a rotation of Price, Porcello, Wright, Teheran, and Rodriguez in some order, I think most folks would be pretty happy with the rotation. And yet right now, Rodriguez sucks beyond all belief.
I think we have to beg Ortiz to come back next season so we can do this again with Benintendi and Moncada starting the season in AAA.
If we started 2017 with a rotation of Price, Porcello, Wright, Teheran, and Rodriguez in some order, I think most folks would be pretty happy with the rotation. And yet right now, Rodriguez sucks beyond all belief.
I think we have to beg Ortiz to come back next season so we can do this again with Benintendi and Moncada starting the season in AAA.
The board wins. After last nights performance I agree another solid starter is needed. I like Sale but I'm not sure that is viable option as I'm unsure the White Sox would let him go. Someone mentioned a nice package deal with the Braves. Again, not sure that's viable either but likely more feasible than going for Sale. It will cost but after the performance I saw last night EdRod needs to rest and rebuild in AAA..
Just an absolutely brutal week for the starting pitching. The whole team, of course, but yikes.
6/22 vs Chi - Rodriguez: 6.0 ip, 4 h, 4 r, 3 er, 2 bb, 7 k, Koji gets drilled in the 8th, Sox lose 8-6
6/23 vs Chi - Porcello: 5.1 ip, 8 h, 4 r, 4 er, 1 bb, 2 k, Sox score three late runs to come back and win 8-7 in 10
6/24 at Tex - Price: 2.1 ip, 12 h, 6 r, 6 er, 0 bb, 1 k, Sox miraculously score 4 runs in the 9th to win 8-7
6/25 at Tex - Wright: 4.2 ip, 7 h, 8 r, 3 er, 2 bb, 4 k, errors are key in sinking Sox, and they lose 10-3
6/26 at Tex - Buchholz: 5.1 ip, 7 h, 5 r, 4 er, 5 bb, 3 k, Sox lose 6-2
6/27 at TB - Rodriguez: 2.2 ip, 11 h, 9 r, 9 er, 1 bb, 2 k, Sox lose 13-7
TOTALS: 26.1 ip, 45 h, 31 r, 25 er, 11 bb, 19 k, 8.54 era, 2.13 whip, 6.5 k/9
That is simply mind-bogglingly awful. Is it just one of those terrible weeks that happens once in a while? Because there is no major league starting staff ever in the history of MLB that consistently performs that poorly. It's impossible. The chance to turn things around begins tonight, with Porcello going, then the next two games after that with Price and Wright. Must get three excellent performances from those guys.
I really, really, really don't want to give up any of the big prospects, but if they're going to, it damned well better be for a true stud pitcher, not a guy who is just pretty good. I fear that they will overpay for someone that ultimately is a marginal improvement, if that.
6/22 vs Chi - Rodriguez: 6.0 ip, 4 h, 4 r, 3 er, 2 bb, 7 k, Koji gets drilled in the 8th, Sox lose 8-6
6/23 vs Chi - Porcello: 5.1 ip, 8 h, 4 r, 4 er, 1 bb, 2 k, Sox score three late runs to come back and win 8-7 in 10
6/24 at Tex - Price: 2.1 ip, 12 h, 6 r, 6 er, 0 bb, 1 k, Sox miraculously score 4 runs in the 9th to win 8-7
6/25 at Tex - Wright: 4.2 ip, 7 h, 8 r, 3 er, 2 bb, 4 k, errors are key in sinking Sox, and they lose 10-3
6/26 at Tex - Buchholz: 5.1 ip, 7 h, 5 r, 4 er, 5 bb, 3 k, Sox lose 6-2
6/27 at TB - Rodriguez: 2.2 ip, 11 h, 9 r, 9 er, 1 bb, 2 k, Sox lose 13-7
TOTALS: 26.1 ip, 45 h, 31 r, 25 er, 11 bb, 19 k, 8.54 era, 2.13 whip, 6.5 k/9
That is simply mind-bogglingly awful. Is it just one of those terrible weeks that happens once in a while? Because there is no major league starting staff ever in the history of MLB that consistently performs that poorly. It's impossible. The chance to turn things around begins tonight, with Porcello going, then the next two games after that with Price and Wright. Must get three excellent performances from those guys.
I really, really, really don't want to give up any of the big prospects, but if they're going to, it damned well better be for a true stud pitcher, not a guy who is just pretty good. I fear that they will overpay for someone that ultimately is a marginal improvement, if that.
I'm still not on board with a big trade. The season doesn't depend on the 5th starter, it depends on the middle three. If they start performing we have a shot; if not we could send the entire farm to LA for Kershaw and we'd still miss the playoffs by miles. Keep the revolving door spinning. Maybe Wilkerson has something. Maybe Elias just caught Gutierrez on the wrong day.
Think Owens' stock is too low to get a good reliever for him at this point? That's about as far as I want to go right now.
Think Owens' stock is too low to get a good reliever for him at this point? That's about as far as I want to go right now.
I follow the twins, since I live in MN. Worst pitching staff in baseball. There is no reason any team should request Ervin Santana. Buddy Boshers is the only one pitching decent, but has a SSS of 11 innings that is 100% sure to regress.
David Price is a CYA winner still in his prime, on a $30MM+ contract earned on basis of his consistent excellence since 2009. He hasn't been this bad -- by ERA, by ERA+, by FIP, by WHIP, by OPS allowed, by BABiP -- since his rookie year. Some of those measures are even worse than he was in his rookie year.
Even getting a "true stud pitcher" isn't necessarily going to provide anything more than a marginal improvement, especially if there's a systemic or strategic problem that's somehow causing the organization's pitchers not to perform their best in general.
Personally, I suspect there's a problem with the Sox pitchers foremost attempting to "outfox" the hitters based on weaknesses in the hitters' SSS tendencies, rather than a trying to "make them beat you" where the pitchers foremost look to rely on their best stuff as learned over their entire careers.
I'm trying to figure out how to access the information needed to investigate the idea from the outside, and just don't know how.
But basically, the Red Sox starters are just terrible at the art of pitching, for yet another year in a row. Even after adding one of the best who's still pitching.
Kintzler's also been fine, for the twelve minutes or so that he's been on the mound. But yeah, the idea that Santana couldn't be any worse than our starters? Yes, he could. Same with Nolasco, who's been less grotesquely awful than the last couple of seasons, but he's still bad.
Are your referring to Pedey? He really does make the most sense as a trading chip. There are worthy replacements in the short term and long-term, and he has appeal to other teams. I would think it would more likely happen, if at all, during an offseason.
People talk about trading Pedey all the time. It's silly and will never happen, but they still talk about it. I assume Plympton was talking about Ortiz, cause he likes to start fires like that.
I'm on board with this general idea right now too. Iwakuma or Karns from Seattle, Shoemaker from the Angels, Hellickson from the Phillies, Niese from the Pirates, Nelson from the Brewers, Chatwood from Colorado are some of the names I'd look at. Giving up Moncada/Benintendi for Teheran is a terrible idea, especially if you're able to add two of the above names for Henry Owens and a bag of balls.
Shoemaker isn't getting salary dumped. He's used more/improved his splitter and has been legitimately elite for a month and a half now. If the Angels want to move him he may end up being the trading deadline prize.
With you Teheran though, hard pass unless the team has a real strong view at what has changed/can be changed so he can get lefties out.
With you Teheran though, hard pass unless the team has a real strong view at what has changed/can be changed so he can get lefties out.
Anybody that suggests Pedey should be traded should be outright banned. Performance per dollar, its an unbelievable bargain.
What the Red Sox really need to do is trade an elite hitting prospect for an elite pitching prospect, but those are so hard to make. In part, because the rational analysis says the elite hitting prospect is more likely to ultimately provide value both because TINSTAPP and lesser risk of career threatening injuries or at least 12-18 months of injury rehab that usually ends up ruining the majority of 2 pre-free-agency seasons. Yet, teams also hold tightly to anyone who might be a #1, despite the empirical evidence, because it now costs $30 million to get an elite starter, but only $20 million to get an above-average hitter.
I'd love to see something like Benintendi for Giolito, who's starting tonight in place of Strasburg. But the Nats probably see him stepping right in for Gonzalez next year, and wouldn't move him. Even though Benintendi could similarly step right in for Werth next year, and save them similar amounts of cash.
I'd love to see something like Benintendi for Giolito, who's starting tonight in place of Strasburg. But the Nats probably see him stepping right in for Gonzalez next year, and wouldn't move him. Even though Benintendi could similarly step right in for Werth next year, and save them similar amounts of cash.
Haha. I have been thinking about the June swoon of 2004 and the trade of Nomar that everyone seems to think was the turn-around. But Pedey, forgeddaboudit.
This is how bad the pitching has gotten. Steven Wright will not throw his bullpen today in case he's needed in the game tonight.
MLB Network Radio @MLBNetworkRadio 10s10 seconds ago
Farrell said Steven Wright will not throw a bullpen pre game in case he is needed out of the bullpen tonight "we're fighting it right now"
MLB Network Radio @MLBNetworkRadio 10s10 seconds ago
Farrell said Steven Wright will not throw a bullpen pre game in case he is needed out of the bullpen tonight "we're fighting it right now"
If the Sox are willing to eat salary, I would keep an eye on Matt Garza. He's owed $12.5 in 2016, $12.5 in 2017, and has a vesting option which vests if he has 110 starts in 2014-17 (he's at 56 so far for that period), 2) has 115 innings in 2017 and 3) is not on the disabled list at end of 2017 season. This post doesn't make sense to me as an offer (I actually think the Sox need to hang on to every bit of potential pitching depth they have) but considering how much he's owed and the fact that he was terrible last year, I have to think he could be had for salary relief/spare parts alone.
Of course...he was terrible last year, and he's only made 3 starts so far this year.
Of course...he was terrible last year, and he's only made 3 starts so far this year.
20 hits and 8 SO in 16 IP doesn't exactly scream "promising big league starter," but it's a tiny sample: I agree that they should keep an eye on him.
I may sound like a broken record, but put the shoe on the other foot:
"My team needs real help 3-5 and in the bullpen but there's not much out there and nothing worth decimating the farm system for (because that won't guarantee anything). A lot of folks in Boston seem to think 2016 isn't the year so hows about we go after under-performing guys with possible upside like Buchholz or Kelly (both of which can be had for virtually nothing) or even Uehara (never know, he may turn it around). I imagine Boston will listen to any reasonable offer for them...and they're better than the dreck we've been pushing out there for the last 10 days..."
"My team needs real help 3-5 and in the bullpen but there's not much out there and nothing worth decimating the farm system for (because that won't guarantee anything). A lot of folks in Boston seem to think 2016 isn't the year so hows about we go after under-performing guys with possible upside like Buchholz or Kelly (both of which can be had for virtually nothing) or even Uehara (never know, he may turn it around). I imagine Boston will listen to any reasonable offer for them...and they're better than the dreck we've been pushing out there for the last 10 days..."
Garza's squeaking by on an 80% strand rate. He has a terribly low swinging strike rate (10.7%, league average 15.4%) and a sky-high BIP/strike rate (38.7%, league average 29.9%)--and so far, an obviously unsustainable 0.0% HR/FB. All that adds up to a SIERA over 5. He is a shellacking waiting to happen.
We simply have to develop at least one starting pitcher of some competence from the crop of Rodriguez, Owens, Elias, Johnson, and have Price perform as an ace, and have Porcello not get worse and have Wright not get worse and bring another decent starter in a market where they are so hard to find.
Anderson Espinoza should be completely off the table. Groome should be given every penny allowable.
And the people who said Price's opt out was a good thing should pounds their scrotums with a hammer.
Anderson Espinoza should be completely off the table. Groome should be given every penny allowable.
And the people who said Price's opt out was a good thing should pounds their scrotums with a hammer.
And I hope Teheran -- and his 3.87 career FIP in the NL East -- isn't considered "Special Reserve."
To give up our elite prospects I think DD would want an elite return, and I'm struggling to identify who would fit the bill.
Sale and Harvey seem unlikely, Gray has struggled this year, etc.
To give up our elite prospects I think DD would want an elite return, and I'm struggling to identify who would fit the bill.
Sale and Harvey seem unlikely, Gray has struggled this year, etc.
But what is the Special Reserve, exactly? Are we talking about guys like Gray, Pomeranz, Teheran, and maybe Gerrit Cole? I.e., second-tier pitchers (well, OK, Cole might be better than that, but he's damaged goods at the moment)? The real Special Reserve guys all pitch for teams that are still in contention, and not terribly likely to fall out before the deadline.
Last I checked, adding one starter is an indispensable step on the way to adding multiple starters, unless you propose to acquire them all in one deal.
Are you just saying that because we need more than one, we should target pitchers of lesser ability who won't cost as much per arm in prospect talent? If so, don't we run the risk of winding up in the 2015 situation?
He'll speak for himself, but I understood Soxhop's statement to mean that since the Red Sox really need more than one pitcher, and the price per front line pitcher is (we surmise) obscenely high, you'll really have to nearly decimate your farm system to get a return that will make a true impact this year. So we're not just talking Moncada+ for front line pitcher 1, you're talking at least two deals of that type.
At least I think that's what he meant, and I'd agree with that sentiment.
Having heard reports of teams asking about him, I wonder what it would take to get Matt Moore. He might be precisely the kind of enigmatic, damaged goods type we already have too many of, but the upside and contract are very appealing.
This was my understanding. And when the price of Julio Teheran is Moncada+ I shudder at what it would take to rebuild the rotation in season.
Papi's leaving and the combination of X, Betts, JBJ, Moncada, Benintendi could adequately replace his DH production. Bit worried about losing that for a B-tier pitcher.
Given mlb.com's prospect rankings, a valid question is - would the Nat's trade Giolito, the Dodgers - Elias...
for a front line pitcher today?
The Red Sox have 3 of the top 21 ranked prospects (infield/outfield positions). You could theoretically swap any one of them for an equally-ranked pitcher. Would it then make sense to package that pitcher in a deal for a veteran? The answer to that question helps validate losing Monacada, Devers and/or Benintendi. (Does that make any sense?)
I'm leaning toward saying it's not worth it.
for a front line pitcher today?
The Red Sox have 3 of the top 21 ranked prospects (infield/outfield positions). You could theoretically swap any one of them for an equally-ranked pitcher. Would it then make sense to package that pitcher in a deal for a veteran? The answer to that question helps validate losing Monacada, Devers and/or Benintendi. (Does that make any sense?)
I'm leaning toward saying it's not worth it.
Cross off one of the cheaper bullpen additions: Marlins just acquired Fernando Rodney from the Padres for a single-A prospect (ranked as the Marlins #16 by MLB.com).
Just so we have a clear sense of the cost involved, the prospect --- Chris Paddack -- has likely moved up the in Marlins' rankings a bit since the season began. 28.1 IP, 48 K, 2 BB, 9 H, 3 ER in six starts as a 20 year old in High-A.
Last edited:
Considering the Marlins are considered to have one of the bottom three or four farm systems in baseball, that doesn't mean a whole lot.