Injuries and Depth

smastroyin

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While you may not have been paying attention, the Red Sox have lost a lot of depth since the start of the season.

I think basic positional depth looked something like this to start the year:

C: Vazquez, Swihart, Hannigan, Leon, Butler.
1B: Ramirez, Shaw, Holt, Craig, Travis (and Ortiz for emergencies and occasional spot start)
2B: Pedroia, Holt, Rutledge, Hernandez
3B: Sandoval, Shaw, Holt, Rutledge, Hernandez
SS: Bogaerts, Holt, Marrero, Hernandez, Rutledge in a true pinch.
LF: Castillo, Holt, Young, Brentz, Craig
CF: JBJ, Young, Castillo, Betts
RF: Betts, JBJ, Holt, Brentz

What has happened since then?

- Sandoval is injured and out for the year. This moves Shaw to 3B starter.
- Castillo was terrible and lost his job. This moved Holt to LF starter vs RHP, Young to LF starter vs RHP.
- Craig injured his oblique, missed 30 games, played 2, and hasn't played since (last game 5/19)
- Swihart moved to LF
- Holt is on his second concussion DL trip of his career.
- Sam Travis tore his UCL and is out the year
- Deven Marrero has looked like absolute crap (really minor concern, I expect Xander will play 155+ games at SS this year, and if he gets injured it's not a depth issue it's a "one of your stars got injured" issue)

Current and ongoing concerns:
- Ramirez seems to have an issue with his foot, and his recent injury history suggests that we shouldn't count on him for more than about 130 games anyway.
- Pedroia has avoided the DL in only 2 of the last 7 years. He has missed more than 50 games in 2 of those 7 years, including last year
- David Ortiz is 40 years old and has had a couple of nagging leg things going on.
- Holt's head. Let's take no risks with concussion issues.

To me the corner depth is starting to look pretty shallow, and it's only June 1. Sure, if nothing else goes wrong they are ok and can survive Hanley missing a game here or there or even a couple weeks by using Holt and Hernandez with Shaw going to 1B. So maybe there is no call to do anything right now. But, it certainly seems like DD should at least be looking around to find a 1B/OF type before it becomes a need. As well, we all know I'd prefer Blake Swihart be catching in Pawtucket as opposed to playing LF in Boston so there are some tangible benefits even now. Are there targets out there at a low enough cost vs improvement over Chris Marrero? Presumably the Red Sox also know more about Allen Craig's health. And of course Brentz and Castillo are still around, if uninspiring.
 
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BaseballJones

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I'm sure DD has been paying attention to this, even if (as you point out), many Sox fans haven't. Finding a guy who can fill in for a while adequately shouldn't cost too much, especially from a team that's out of it. Maybe by the second half of the year it's clear that a guy like Benintendi can really help the major league club if needed. I don't know the rules about club control if guys are September call ups. Coyle could probably help if necessary as well. If you lose a couple of big guns, it's going to be a problem for any team most likely.

But yes, this is a good thread topic because I thought this team was LOADED with depth going into the year, and it turns out that as of right now, they're not.
 

joe dokes

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I'm sure DD has been paying attention to this, even if (as you point out), many Sox fans haven't. Finding a guy who can fill in for a while adequately shouldn't cost too much, especially from a team that's out of it. Maybe by the second half of the year it's clear that a guy like Benintendi can really help the major league club if needed. I don't know the rules about club control if guys are September call ups. Coyle could probably help if necessary as well. If you lose a couple of big guns, it's going to be a problem for any team most likely.

But yes, this is a good thread topic because I thought this team was LOADED with depth going into the year, and it turns out that as of right now, they're not.
Since I dont think that DD ever thought of Craig or Castillo as actual depth, I am confident that eyes have been on the "who's playing/not playing/may be available" crowd since day 1. And especially after Sandoval went down for the season.
 
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wyatt55

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Great discussion point. Any time the Red Sox (and Patriots FWIW) are playing well and I'm questioned about the teams I always reference health. Injuries are the great equalizer and we all know how they can derail a talented team's hopes. See Loretta, Mark first baseman? (Knock, knock).

That said, it's startling how much the above depth picture improves with a healthy Brock Holt. I think many people seriously underrate just how amazing he was defensively in his multiple positions last year.

The position that actually concerns me the most from your list is catcher. I know swihart can move back behind the dish but Hanigan Better make sure to keep the right hand Out of harms way. I love Christian Vazquez but I don't want him catching more than he needs to post TJ surgery.
 

Merkle's Boner

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I would quibble with your comment about Xander. Depth is what allows you to survive injuries. Right now, if Mookie gets injured, while it would suck, you can move adequate people into that spot. I don't know who would take over at SS in the case of Xander going on the DL. Hernandez I guess? No idea whether he can handle that position day in and day out but I definitely don't feel comfortable with Holt at SS.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Sean Coyle was so terrible in AAA they demoted him. in 198 PA at the AAA level, he slashed .146/.246/.273 with 74 strike outs. If he is anywhere near Boston, things have gone terribly, terribly wrong. As for OF depth, Henry Ramos is probably playing his way up the depth chart. He missed basically 2 years of development time due to injury but was a fringe prospect/great athlete. He is having a solid year in Portland and since he's approaching 500 PA at the AA level, is probably headed to Pawtaucket soon.

edit: Of course he isn't even on the 40 man so that's about as likely as Coyle playing.
 

nvalvo

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Competent multi-positionalists Rutledge and Hernandez seem like big helps in this dimension in a Holt-like way.

At least in the infield. So far as I can gather, Hernandez has played precisely two games in the outfield as a professional, and Rutledge zero.

I'll second Ramos, who's always looked great when I've seen him. Maybe it will soon be time to give him Coyle's 40-man spot, insofar as both Rutledge and Hernandez seem to have passed Coyle.
 

Saints Rest

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Man, this team could use a ca. 2013 Daniel Nava. I can't believe that that is that hard to find come July.

I wonder if Hanley's recent struggles are tied to a nagging injury. (He's 4 for his last 25 with 0 XBH's over the last 10 games.)
 

Koufax

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This thread makes the wailing and knashing of teeth over having Blake Swihart play in LF look silly. Positional flexibility is always a plus. If they need a 3d catcher, they can move him behind the plate and put Young or Holt in the outfield. (And giving Blake the at bats he needs to hone his MLB hitting skills will do him a lot of good, assuming that he has the talent that many believe him to have).
 

geoduck no quahog

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Let's assume the team is Holtless, for argument's sake (please correct):
  1. Vazquez goes down: Swihart to catcher, Young to LF, Castillo called up, Shaw emergency backup
  2. Hanley goes down: Shaw to 1B, Rutledge/Hernandez to 3B, Marrero activated
  3. Pedroia goes down: Rutledge/Hernandez to 2B
  4. Shaw goes down: Rutledge/Hernandez to 3B
  5. Bogaerts goes down: Marrero activated, Rutledge/Hernandez emergency backup
  6. Swihart goes down: Young or Shaw to LF, Castillo called up, Rutledge/Hernandez backs up 3B if Shaw plays LF
  7. JBJ goes down: Young to CF, Castillo called up
  8. Betts goes down: Young to RF, Castillo called up
  9. Ortiz goes down: Red Sox acquire Victor Martinez (along with Adrian Beltre)
- Missing Holt creates big holes
- Castillo being an emergency call-up is scary as hell

On the other hand, I'm not so sure any other team in the East has many better options.
 

Koufax

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This list explains the enormous value of Holt as a utility player and why I really want him in that role when he comes back. He doesn't need to play every day, it wears him down, opposing teams adjust to him and he's simply not a valuable playing left field as he is in giving 7 different players a breather every now and then. And sometimes he can give a catcher a breather by playing LF and giving Swihart a day behind the plate.
 

Van Everyman

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I think the biggest thing Holt could do is give Hanley a breather by sliding into 3B and letting Shaw handle 1B. I feel like Swihart is handling LF fine. Is there any word on Holt?

Am I the only one who thinks Castillo being called on isn't an absolutely terrible thing? I understand he hasn't played well, but I feel like there are worse things than seeing if he could step up his game early in a pennant race.
 

FanSinceBoggs

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I'm worried about Hanley's health too. I like the idea of putting him on the 15 day DL, let him regain his health. It looks like Hernandez can hit a little and so they can play Hernandez at 3b, Shaw at 1b. When Holt returns = utility role with Swihart in LF.

Hanley is fragile, another reason why I like him at DH next year. Since Sandoval has lost his starting 3b job, he will have to play 1b if he wants a starting position in 2017.
 
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O Captain! My Captain!

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I think the biggest thing Holt could do is give Hanley a breather by sliding into 3B and letting Shaw handle 1B. I feel like Swihart is handling LF fine. Is there any word on Holt?

Am I the only one who thinks Castillo being called on isn't an absolutely terrible thing? I understand he hasn't played well, but I feel like there are worse things than seeing if he could step up his game early in a pennant race.
I'd rather see Holt play 1b than move two players around, considering 3b is probably Holt's worst position, but that's not a huge deal.

Castillo is not the worst possible outfield option, either. His speed and defense alone should allow him to contribute something, even if he can't hit a lick, and he can cover all three outfield positions more than credibly. With the offense the strength that it is, a moderately versatile, defense-first player is at least a good bench option. Sure, he's getting paid to be more than a fourth outfielder, but you don't get any of that contract back by not paying him. The only reason not to call him up in a moment of need is if the team is worried doing so prevents him from developing into something more, but at this point the clock has been ticking for a rather long time and you really do have to try to get some value out of Castillo if it's there.
 

simplicio

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Is Castillo worse at the plate than Marrero, or Chris Young vs RHP? If he's needed in Boston I don't think it's the end of the world, but I'd rather have him trying to hit every day in Pawtucket than sitting on the bench in Boston.

Also: when Sandoval is back, does he even represent an upgrade from Hanley at first? I don't think that's a given.
 

leftfieldlegacy

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I'm worried about Hanley's health too. I like the idea of putting him on the 15 day DL, let him regain his health. It looks like Hernandez can hit a little and so they can play Hernandez at 3b, Shaw at 1b. When Holt returns = utility role with Swihart in LF.

Hanley is fragile, another reason why I like him at DH next year. Since Sandoval has lost his starting 3b job, he will have to play 1b if he wants a starting position in 2017.
It's a bit premature to say that Sandoval will be out of the mix to play 3B next season. His shoulder injury had to be a significant contributing factor to his awful play last spring. Let's wait and see how Panda recovers with 8 months of rehab plus spring training before deciding that he has to play first if he wants a starting position in 2017. Shaw is a known commodity at first base and moving him back there would let Sandoval stay at his natural position.
 

smastroyin

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It's been three weeks since I started this thread, and things have gotten worse.

First, Swihart injured himself and is out pretty much indefinitely, since we haven't really been given an updated timeline on his return.
Second, Castillo was taken off of the 40 man. He's still around, but not useful as much more than a warm body so far.
Third, Hanley Ramirez has hit 179/273/269 this month, and looks to be nursing a shoulder injury to go along with his foot problems.
Fourth, Travis Shaw has hit 210/290/274 this month, which is better than how he ended May, but still troubling as his slump recovery has all been in 1B and BB, not showing much extra base power.
Fifth, Brock Holt has remained out with concussion symptoms, though he is finally playing again and may be back in a week or so.
Sixth, we are hearing more noise about David Ortiz needing games off.

As much as we hope Ryan LaMarre will have an age 27 surprise season, I don't think he's the answer. Deven Marrero started a game at 3B.

On the plus side, Chris Young has been great, and Andrew Benintendi finally starting hitting in Portland. But, the Sox are still very thin here.

After about 6 weeks of things going about as well as they could for the Sox, the last 5 have been fairly brutal and the team is quickly re-shaping to look like the between World Series wins teams (05 and 06), with a few guys carrying water of the whole team. Let's hope the course reverses soon.
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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What's so odd at this moment, is how the depth's getting injured. The core of players every expected (in the offseason) that the team would need to depend on to succeed has been, generally speaking, very healthy and mostly productive.

The only expected key contributor lost to injury so far has been Smith.

Ortiz, Pedroia, Ramirez, Bogaerts, and Betts on offense. Price, Porcello, Tazawa, Uehara, and Kimbrel for pitching. To only see 2-of-10 underperform expectations through almost half a season is remarkable, and even Hanley and Koji looked good until relatively recently. Add in the unexpected positive surprises of JBJ and Young and Wright, and the team should really be sitting pretty!

Which they really were, until June.

But now, with so many extra midrange guys hurt, the Red Sox 25-man roster is a microcosm of the farm system. There are just enough great talents doing their thing to not-quite mask how absurdly things go from "awesome" to "putrid" and it's all due to the lack of "merely competent" options.
 

Al Zarilla

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What's so odd at this moment, is how the depth's getting injured. The core of players every expected (in the offseason) that the team would need to depend on to succeed has been, generally speaking, very healthy and mostly productive.
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Now watch someone get hit on the wrist today. Superstition is a funny thing. I don't like to fuck with fate. Internet message board, how could it possibly have any effect and all that jazz.
 

tims4wins

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Red Sox dig deep into their depth and call up infielder Mike Miller from Triple-A and option right-hander William Cuevas. Miller, who was batting .256 with a .624 OPS at Pawtucket added to 40-man roster. Sox needed another position player after they were forced over the weekend to option infielder Deven Marrero in favor of an extra pitcher (Cuevas).
 

E5 Yaz

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Scott Lauber ESPN Staff Writer

Red Sox dig deep into their depth and call up infielder Mike Miller from Triple-A and option right-hander William Cuevas. Miller, who was batting .256 with a .624 OPS at Pawtucket added to 40-man roster. Sox needed another position player after they were forced over the weekend to option infielder Deven Marrero in favor of an extra pitcher (Cuevas).
So, why not Holt? Not ready?

Bill Koch ‏@BillKoch25 21h21 hours ago
#PawSox manager Kevin Boles said Brock Holt (concussion) and Ryan Hanigan (neck) would each have Monday off, will be reevaluated.
 
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johnnywayback

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Baffling. When I heard they called up Miller, I thought: 1) Wow, Bogaerts must desperately need a day off and it can't wait for Holt to be ready, and 2) They don't trust Hernandez to play SS even for a day.

And now Bogaerts is in the starting lineup. Which means, I guess, that they don't trust Hernandez to play even in an emergency?
 

DeadlySplitter

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Hernandez is filling in for Shaw again at 3rd, he's done that a handful of times now. If he can do 3B OK, not sure why not SS for one time (although I could be being really dumb in assuming 3B is close to SS).

I think the team realizes they have to win this series at an absolute minimum and X may play all three if needed to do that.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I'm guessing the Miller call-up is less about giving guys a breather or not trusting them, and more about filling out the bench. They had to send down Marrero to get Cuevas up, leaving them a 2-man bench plus the back up catcher. Since they can't bring Marrero back without someone going on the DL, Holt isn't ready, and their primary need is for an infielder, Miller got the call.

I'm assuming that Bogaerts will get his much needed rest on Wednesday so they can combine it with the off-day on Thursday...a practice they've utilized in the past.
 

Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat

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I'm assuming that Bogaerts will get his much needed rest on Wednesday so they can combine it with the off-day on Thursday...a practice they've utilized in the past.
Or they'll let him rest against Archer tomorrow and let him face the two lefties. It might actually depend on tonight's outcome.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
So, why not Holt? Not ready?
That's correct:

Brock Holt still experiencing concussion symptoms

"This is a very unique one," said Red Sox manager John Farrell. "We talked a lot about his form of a concussion and felt like the best way for him to get back to being capable with us is to push forward and stress the intensity, the level of play, because the symptoms aren't going to go away just by sitting around. This is a matter of getting active and being aggressive with it so hopefully everything calibrates within his system, and that's the recommendation of the medical staff."
 

In my lifetime

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I am sorry, I just don't understand the medical aproach with Holt. Not that there are many absolutes with treating concussions, but one that has been followed consistently in the last 5 years is no return to play until symptom free. The medical rationale for playing through symptoms completely escapes me.
 

barbed wire Bob

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I am sorry, I just don't understand the medical aproach with Holt. Not that there are many absolutes with treating concussions, but one that has been followed consistently in the last 5 years is no return to play until symptom free. The medical rationale for playing through symptoms completely escapes me.
The article mentions that Holt is experiencing a "slight disoriented feeling that they are working through". From what I understand, post concussion treatment includes a graded resumption of activity that is closely monitored. Basically you start out with with light activity and then step up to a more intense level of activity if no symptoms are observed. If the patient does experience a return of symptoms, then the patient rests for 24 hours and then drops down a step before moving up again. I'm guessing that's what is happening with Holt and, to me, it sounds like the organization is treating him appropriately.
 

simplicio

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Being faced with the proposition of rejoining the current Sox team having last played with them in May could induce symptoms of disorientation in anyone.
 

In my lifetime

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The article mentions that Holt is experiencing a "slight disoriented feeling that they are working through". From what I understand, post concussion treatment includes a graded resumption of activity that is closely monitored. Basically you start out with with light activity and then step up to a more intense level of activity if no symptoms are observed. If the patient does experience a return of symptoms, then the patient rests for 24 hours and then drops down a step before moving up again. I'm guessing that's what is happening with Holt and, to me, it sounds like the organization is treating him appropriately.
That is a correct summary of the general medical approach. The issue is that Holt is experiencing symptoms and therefore by your summary, with which I agree, should not be playing. In fact, from the reports he has never been symptom free. Therefore he is not even ready for light activity.
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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I am sorry, I just don't understand the medical aproach with Holt. Not that there are many absolutes with treating concussions, but one that has been followed consistently in the last 5 years is no return to play until symptom free. The medical rationale for playing through symptoms completely escapes me.
They're desperate?

Sort of like the whole "bloody sock" medical approach, except without season-ending elimination actually looming. And without it pertaining to a critically essential member of the team.

Who knows what needs to be "calibrated within his system" as Farrell puts it, but increasing high-level physical exertion while still symptomatic of brain injury doesn't seem likely to be the usual way for a patient to reach neurologic stability.

Is there a doctor on the board who'd be willing to chime in?
 

In my lifetime

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I am a doctor, although not a neurologist. I assume the Red Sox have a concussion specialist, who is certainly more of an expert than I. It certainly is not typical treatment, but concussion treatment is not 100% scientific at this time. However, their approach is unusual, so I would like to hear the physician talk about his rationale.
 

barbed wire Bob

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That is a correct summary of the general medical approach. The issue is that Holt is experiencing symptoms and therefore by your summary, with which I agree, should not be playing. In fact, from the reports he has never been symptom free. Therefore he is not even ready for light activity.
It's hard to tell from the reports if he was symptom free before he started playing and the symptoms returned as a result of playing or he was rushed into playing before he was truly symptom free. I'm not a doctor so my knowledge about concussions is very limited. I'm looking forward to CPT Neuron's take.
 

Bigpupp

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They're desperate?

Sort of like the whole "bloody sock" medical approach, except without season-ending elimination actually looming. And without it pertaining to a critically essential member of the team.

Who knows what needs to be "calibrated within his system" as Farrell puts it, but increasing high-level physical exertion while still symptomatic of brain injury doesn't seem likely to be the usual way for a patient to reach neurologic stability.

Is there a doctor on the board who'd be willing to chime in?
Desperate or not, it's not up to the Red Sox as to when Holt can return. This article explains a little about what I'm talking about

MLB and the players' union announced a new set of protocols that take effect on opening day to deal with concussions, including the creation of the new seven-day disabled list that should give team doctors and the injured players more flexibility to address head injuries....Each team will also have to designate a specialist who deals with mild brain injuries to evaluate players and umpires when needed and be required send its medical reports to Dr. Gary Green, MLB's medical director, for approval before the injured player is cleared to return to the field.
 

EricFeczko

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I'm a neuroscientist, but not a medical doctor. I'll let CPT Neuron correct anything I get wrong when it comes to protocol.
When one discusses concussions, one typically breaks down the symptoms into concussive (symptoms that occur up until two weeks after injury) and post-concussive (or persistent) symptoms (PCS). As of now, there's little argument that Holt is suffering from PCS actively.
While rest is the typical treatment for concussions, PCS is a different story. Animal models of concussion, as well as human studies of some athlete populations, show that physical activity can enhance recovery from PCS and is safe if carefully monitored.
There's probably a critical window for resumption of activity, which explains why elevated physical activity immediately following a concussion may lengthen and worsen symtpoms.
The reasons for this are basically unknown. One can find hypotheses regarding cerebral blood flow, CSF function, dopamine transporter alterations, connectivity alterations, excitiotoxic mechanisms, plaque deposits, etc. etc.
Likely, concussion and PCS represent a set of disorders, which makes it difficult to identify the myriad eitiologies. Nevertheless, there is substantial empirical evidence for therapeutic effects of physical activity on PCS.
 

Humphrey

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On the surface, facing 90+ mph pitching and post-concussion symptoms are mutually exclusive.
 

simplicio

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Man, one after another.

The 2016 Red Sox: 30 fearsomely armed guys in a season-long fight with Jackie Chan.