Clay Buchholz: Rolaids Relief Man

BaseballJones

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Agreed, though I'm not ready to write off Kelly like that. 8 Ks in 4.2 is a good sign for him; it looked to me like he got a little unlucky, but mostly that loss is on Donaldson just having an unstoppable night.
Donaldson was ridiculous last night. On the first homer, yeah, Kelly missed his spot. The pitch was supposed to be away, but it was still below the knees on the inner half and he managed to hit it out to right-center. Crazy. The second homer was out of the strike zone up and away and he drove it down the right field line for a homer. Neither pitch was a meatball. Neither pitch was middle-middle. Both were on the fringes of the strike zone, and perhaps neither of them was actually a strike. Yet he hit two homers. I know the second one was off Koji, but still...Donaldson was totally in the zone yesterday.

You can't fault a pitcher for giving up a home run on a pitch that's out of the strike zone. The hitter isn't even supposed to be swinging at that.
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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As to the Pirates point. Why give up anything of remote value when you have Taillon and glasnow in the minors
Because you can never have too much starting pitching.

Precisely the same reason the Red Sox should try to hold onto Buchholz, even though they have Eduardo Rodriguez.
 

canderson

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At least Clay's head is in the right place.

@brianmacp
Buchholz declined to speak to reporters again today, other than muttering, "I got (expletive) moved to the bullpen. You can write it down."
 

ShaneTrot

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At least Clay's head is in the right place.

@brianmacp
Buchholz declined to speak to reporters again today, other than muttering, "I got (expletive) moved to the bullpen. You can write it down."
I am liking the DD era. This is a performance-based business and the veterans will be held accountable. Clay doesn't like the bullpen, he can pitch his way out. I don't think he can but I hope he can.
 

czar

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Re: the pulling
At least Clay's head is in the right place.

@brianmacp
Buchholz declined to speak to reporters again today, other than muttering, "I got (expletive) moved to the bullpen. You can write it down."
Eh, if he was quoted as saying "oh well, I suck so I'll go goof around sucking in the bullpen and collecting my paycheck" the response would be "clearly he has no more professional desire." If he just hides and never shows his face he's "lacking accountability." With how irrationally POed the fanbase is, my guess is whatever he says can be spun as "Clay Buchholz should be DFAed."

I will say that the media has this weird fascination with Buchholz (particularly the last few years) and it might needle him a bit. Joe Kelly, Wade Miley, and Rick Porcello have had 2+ months bouts of suck over the last year or so and I can't remember 1/10th the daily articles about it. Maybe it's because he's the longest tenured Red Sox, but Brian MacPherson wrote.

Alternately squatting on the turf and jogging after ground balls hit in his vicinity, Clay Buchholz spent batting practice at Rogers Centre mostly by himself on Friday evening. The occasional coach wandered over with a word or two and a pat on the back. He ran off the field as quickly and silently as he could after batting practice ended. He was the picture of a man facing his professional mortality.
WTF does that even mean? There were some days in college I used to silently jog after balls during batting practice. I think I was thinking more about whether or not I should text that girl from the bar last night rather than my professional mortality, but maybe I'm just not as deep as Buchholz.
 

ookami7m

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I will say that the media has this weird fascination with Buchholz (particularly the last few years) and it might needle him a bit. Joe Kelly, Wade Miley, and Rick Porcello have had 2+ months bouts of suck over the last year or so and I can't remember 1/10th the daily articles about it. Maybe it's because he's the longest tenured Red Sox...
Papi hasn't retired yet....
 

Maximus

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I am liking the DD era. This is a performance-based business and the veterans will be held accountable. Clay doesn't like the bullpen, he can pitch his way out. I don't think he can but I hope he can.
I am a big fan of DD, once he identifies problems he corrects them and has made the veterans accountable.
 

Montana Fan

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I am liking the DD era. This is a performance-based business and the veterans will be held accountable. Clay doesn't like the bullpen, he can pitch his way out. I don't think he can but I hope he can.
I'm with ya. Rusney is gonna pound the ball into the ground, he'll do it in AAA. Vazquez is better at framing pitches, he's starting. Sandoval is fat, Shaw's in. And Buch is throwing meatballs, he'll be doing it out of the pen.
 

nighthob

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Wait for injuries on a playoff-bound NL team that has a weak bottom of the rotation and may need to take a flyer. Pirates, maybe?
Giving it some thought, he looks like the perfect bargain basement Pirate pickup with that option year just in case they get him straightened out.
 

crystalline

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Squirrels. Yes.
That's exactly what I see when watching Buchholz. Squirrels.

Can we get him to play poker in the off season to work on ignoring the squirrels when they start scratching distractingly?
 

Cesar Crespo

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What if he happens to be a lights out reliever? Do you keep him there or do you move him back to the rotation hoping it transfers over?
 

NDame616

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What if he happens to be a lights out reliever? Do you keep him there or do you move him back to the rotation hoping it transfers over?
He's been a terrible starter all year, and most often than not other recently (when factoring in the importance of injuries to a SP). If he happens to be a lights out reliever the Red Sox will be geniuses, Buchholz stays in the pen and hopefully continues a long, successful (and profitable) career there.

In other words, if he works as a reliever there's a 0% chance he's moved back to the rotation.
 

TheoShmeo

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He's been a terrible starter all year, and most often than not other recently (when factoring in the importance of injuries to a SP). If he happens to be a lights out reliever the Red Sox will be geniuses, Buchholz stays in the pen and hopefully continues a long, successful (and profitable) career there.

In other words, if he works as a reliever there's a 0% chance he's moved back to the rotation.
The percentage is way higher than zero.

If any of the current starters goes down or suffers through a prolonged period of suck, and if none of the guys in Pawtucket look any more promising than they do today, the natural temptation will be to move Buck back into the rotation. And hope that whatever he has discovered in the pen carries over. I think that's part of why he is being labelled a "long man."
 

PaulinMyrBch

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Does anyone have an opinion on whether a pitcher is better off in the bullpen if he is trying to work on (fix) some issues he might be having?

Starters throw every five days and have on bullpen session in between. What is the schedule for relievers? I'm sure it depends on how much work they get. But I wonder if that schedule would allow more specific work regarding mechanics?
 

mfried

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In light of our bullpen worries, good chance we will see Buck today. No closer, no Taz, probably no Layne. Hembree, Ross and Buck.
 

rembrat

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So should Buch continue to feature his entire catalog of pitches or should he become a fastball/curveball guy with a 3rd pitch just to keep hitters guessing?
 

pantsparty

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So should Buch continue to feature his entire catalog of pitches or should he become a fastball/curveball guy with a 3rd pitch just to keep hitters guessing?
Gameday said he threw 4-seam, 2-seam, cutter, and curve (no changeups). Looking at the pitchf/x data I think the 4-seamers were mis-classified cutters, which would give him two fastballs with opposite break and an offspeed pitch.
 

alwyn96

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Does anyone have an opinion on whether a pitcher is better off in the bullpen if he is trying to work on (fix) some issues he might be having?

Starters throw every five days and have on bullpen session in between. What is the schedule for relievers? I'm sure it depends on how much work they get. But I wonder if that schedule would allow more specific work regarding mechanics?
It doesn't seem to me like there's a best role for figuring out mechanics, if that's what the issue is. I think mechanics are hard for everybody. But most starter's stuff does seem to play up in the bullpen, and many (most?) elite relievers became relievers because they were failed starters at some point in their development. Pitching from the bullpen might actually be best for a guy who gets a little too in his own head about stuff - there's a lot less thinking in a bullpen role. You don't worry about the next time you're going to face a guy, or establishing your breaking pitches, or the guy on first base (granted might be a challenge for Clay), or pitching to contact to keep your pitch count down, or trying too hard not to throw anything hittable. You're just right there in the moment, trying to beat a guy with your cheese. It just comes down to pure execution of each pitch. He could just throw whatever pitches are working the best in the bullpen that night. Some of the dumbest players in baseball history have probably been relief pitchers (<cough> Papelbon </cough>). Maybe if they just let him be dumb, he can be great again.
 
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Sprowl

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Gameday said he threw 4-seam, 2-seam, cutter, and curve (no changeups). Looking at the pitchf/x data I think the 4-seamers were mis-classified cutters, which would give him two fastballs with opposite break and an offspeed pitch.
Yes, it looks like 3 curves, 7 two-seamers, and 10 cutters (for 4 whiffs):

 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Pretty much completely driven by the HRs -- doubles are the close to same per PA with men on or off and he hasn't given up triples. In 108 PAs (97 ABs) with men on, he's given up 10 HRs -- 10 percent of ABs. (Stats might not include today, he got two out with men on). With bases empty (140 PA/123 AB) he's given up 2 HRs. Bases loaded, he's given up two HRs in 2 PAs -- both times with two out.
 

Rasputin

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What if he happens to be a lights out reliever? Do you keep him there or do you move him back to the rotation hoping it transfers over?
Depends entirely on what the rotation is looking like. If everything is going well, keeping an effective Buchholz in the bullpen would make up for the loss of Carson Smith. Looking forward with Koji and Taz both free agents, a Buchholz who is willing and able to pitch well out of the bullpen would give the Sox a back four of Kimbrel, Smith, Buchholz, and Barnes which wouldn't be bad.

He looked okay to me today, and in general, I think the middle of the bullpen is a good place for guys who suffer from One Bad Inning Syndrome. Sure, every now and then, they're going to come in and blow up a game, but much of the time they're going to come in and pitch a decent inning. If they're the guy you're going to when you're already down a couple, well, you're gonna lose a lot of those games anyway.
 

AlNipper49

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Depends entirely on what the rotation is looking like. If everything is going well, keeping an effective Buchholz in the bullpen would make up for the loss of Carson Smith. Looking forward with Koji and Taz both free agents, a Buchholz who is willing and able to pitch well out of the bullpen would give the Sox a back four of Kimbrel, Smith, Buchholz, and Barnes which wouldn't be bad.

He looked okay to me today, and in general, I think the middle of the bullpen is a good place for guys who suffer from One Bad Inning Syndrome. Sure, every now and then, they're going to come in and blow up a game, but much of the time they're going to come in and pitch a decent inning. If they're the guy you're going to when you're already down a couple, well, you're gonna lose a lot of those games anyway.
Well he's a free agent too. I would think they'd find a better bullpen arm than him on the open market.

They plan right now is to try to make the shit sandwich that is Buchholz taste better.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Well he's a free agent too. I would think they'd find a better bullpen arm than him on the open market.

They plan right now is to try to make the shit sandwich that is Buchholz taste better.
Well, he's got that option they could exercise to keep him around through next year if they really wanted him back. $13M is pricey even for the most elite reliever in the game though, so he'd really have to show something to justify it. Frankly, the only way I see that option getting picked up is if he can work his way back to the rotation and pitch well.
 

Monbonthbump

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What the heck. In the euphoria induced by winning a game I had long since given up on and put in the "L" column (as opposed to Saturday where I chalked up a "W" on at least three occasions) I am now willing to anoint Buchholz as the next Dennis Eckersley.
 

mfried

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Two observations re Clay's nice 10th inning win: his pace was better and he went repeatedly to a 90 mph cutter. As before, if he has confidence and "feel" he pitches well and doesn't pace laboriously. I wish I felt more confident that this is a typical relief appearance.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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It doesn't seem to me like there's a best role for figuring out mechanics, if that's what the issue is. I think mechanics are hard for everybody. But most starter's stuff does seem to play up in the bullpen, and many (most?) elite relievers became relievers because they were failed starters at some point in their development. Pitching from the bullpen might actually be best for a guy who gets a little too in his own head about stuff - there's a lot less thinking in a bullpen role. You don't worry about the next time you're going to face a guy, or establishing your breaking pitches, or the guy on first base (granted might be a challenge for Clay), or pitching to contact to keep your pitch count down, or trying too hard not to throw anything hittable. You're just right there in the moment, trying to beat a guy with your cheese. It just comes down to pure execution of each pitch. He could just throw whatever pitches are working the best in the bullpen that night. Some of the dumbest players in baseball history have probably been relief pitchers (<cough> Papelbon </cough>). Maybe if they just let him be dumb, he can be great again.
That wasn't my question.

From a standpoint of working on your mechanics by throwing bullpens or side sessions, with the pitching coach, etc. How many of those would a reliever get in a week versus a starter? I think a starter may get 1 of each between starts, so my question was how much work can a reliever do in a given week that does not involve pitching in a game or warming up to go in. I'm sure it depends on how much the bullpen was taxed in a given week and what the relievers role is, but I was wondering how many opportunities Clay would have to work on his mechanics while assigned to the pen. Knowing full well his role isn't as specific as the closer, setup, or loogy. I would think he'd have more opportunities to fine tune his mechanics as a reliever, but I don't know. Looking for someone that might have an informed opinion in that regard.
 

joe dokes

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Two observations re Clay's nice 10th inning win: his pace was better and he went repeatedly to a 90 mph cutter. As before, if he has confidence and "feel" he pitches well and doesn't pace laboriously. I wish I felt more confident that this is a typical relief appearance.
This might tie in the the comment above that he doesn't have to worry about seeing a guy twice and setting him up or establishing all his pitches. He can just go with whatever's working today.

Who knows. Derek Lowe became an afterthought by the end of the 2004 regular season.
 

derekson

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So should Buch continue to feature his entire catalog of pitches or should he become a fastball/curveball guy with a 3rd pitch just to keep hitters guessing?
The cutter actually looked like his best pitch yesterday in relief, IMO. He threw a few at 90-91 with vicious cut (and got a few whiffs where guys weren't even close to getting the bat on it).
 

O Captain! My Captain!

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Sure this is SSS alert but Buchholz's fastball has been getting hammered, despite not really being too much different from previous years in terms of velocity or movement


maybe the move to the pen lets him either use it more sparingly (less fear of his other offerings getting exposed if you're not going through the lineup multiple times) or throw it a bit harder.
 

ToeKneeArmAss

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Two observations re Clay's nice 10th inning win: his pace was better and he went repeatedly to a 90 mph cutter. As before, if he has confidence and "feel" he pitches well and doesn't pace laboriously. I wish I felt more confident that this is a typical relief appearance.
Good observations. Let me add a third - he hit his spots. Speed, stuff, location - all important but if you remember Greg Maddux you know how devastating well-located pitches can be.
 

nvalvo

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Clay can commiserate with his old rotation-mate Anibal Sanchez, also headed to the pen.

(edit: I actually checked, and the two never shared a rotation. They barely overlapped in the system, as Clay was drafted in '05 and Anibal dealt that off-season.)
 

joe dokes

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Better his than someone else's, I think.
Somehow that made me think of this:

And suddenly my whole life passed before my eyes. I saw myself as a kid again, in Kansas, going to school, swimming at the swimming hole, and fishing, frying up a mess-o-catfish, going down to the general store, getting a piece of gingham for Emmy-Lou. And I realise it's not my life. They're gonna hang me in two minutes, the wrong life is passing before my eyes.

http://www.ibras.dk/comedy/allen.htm#South
 

czar

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It's fun to pick out the parts that reinforce the fan base's prevailing notion of CB, but there are a lot of other comments he said that would be lauded if it were Pedroia getting benched. Would be useful to think about in the future when people act like Buchholz trying to pitch is a personal affront to the city of Boston.

This is the only place I've ever been. It's been probably the best that I can imagine playing, to being not so fun at times. That's part of the game. I definitely understand that," he said. "There's nobody who wants to go out there and pitch well more than myself. It stinks to not do well, and it stinks to have the fans criticize you or say you're not good enough. So what you want to do is go out there and prove to everybody that you can. That's sort of where my mind is at now. I already know myself, and I can do whatever I need to do in whatever role I'm put in. It's just a matter of going out there and doing it and preparing for the best, rather than thinking about the worse.
I think that given the way that my season was going up until that point, that's the thoughts that you had. It's not about making pitches, but you start thinking about the whole situation. There was going to be made a move made because we had a couple of arms coming off the [disabled list]. That's the move they made and I've got to take it. It's better than getting released or getting sent down or being put on the D.L. I'll just try and take it in stride and try and figure out how this new situation can work for me and how I can make it work to the best of my ability.
I can't sulk about it or feel sorry for myself. I have to get ready for any situation during the game they want to use me. I'm sure that topic will come up sooner or later when they know what I'm going to do. Whether I'm a long guy in a game, or someone needs a break in the back end of the 'pen and they need a day.
You have to take it one day at a time," he said. "I think everybody on this team knows the capabilities of this one team and everybody in this clubhouse thinks the same, knowing where we want to be at the end of September and moving forward from there. I think that takes some preparation from a lot of peoples to, A, not be selfish, and B, do whatever role is expected of you to do it to the best of your ability. That's where my mindset is at right now. If I have to learn to do something a little bit different, I'm going to learn how to do it and try and help the team the best I can.
 
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