Clay Buchholz: Rolaids Relief Man

RedOctober3829

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It's now a legit question whether Clay Buchholz makes his next start. He can't be run out there every 5th day when he's performing like this. With Rodriguez seemingly ready to go, he should take Buchholz's next turn.

Could this be the beginning of the end for Clay in a Sox uniform?
 

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I asked this in the game thread, but it's more appropriate in this thread. What are the options for him at this point? I haven't really thought that DFAing him was an option, but maybe it's the only option. People love talking about phantom DL stints, but they rarely ever happen. Maybe he'd agree to that if it's his last chance to figure out how to work out of the stretch.
 

Pilgrim

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He has been around here long enough that maybe he cares about his spot on the team enough to take a fake DL trip. As bad as he has been, its probably better to stash him somewhere for a month in case we need him later or he can be fixed.

There isn't much hope, though. Its been a year since his last injury, and his peripherals say hes as bad as hes looked. You can only get hurt so many times before it ruins your ability to pitch.
 

P'tucket rhymes with...

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I asked this in the game thread, but it's more appropriate in this thread. What are the options for him at this point? I haven't really thought that DFAing him was an option, but maybe it's the only option. People love talking about phantom DL stints, but they rarely ever happen. Maybe he'd agree to that if it's his last chance to figure out how to work out of the stretch.
Nothing immediately, maybe move him for a few cents on the dollar toward the deadline. Someone's #5 is going to get hurt or suck even harder, or see him as a one-time-through-the-order guy they can take a flier on in a relief role.
 

SouthernBoSox

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He just isn't a MLB caliber pitcher this year. There isn't even a hint of anything in the advanced metrics, the basic numbers, and scouting.

His fastball just can't get it done both in terms of velocity and location. And his feel for the off speed stuff can't make up for it anymore.

And really, even if you release him and he gets better, he'll still probably get injured. I just don't see the huge downside in letting him go.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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Maybe it actually ends in Baltimore where it all began in 2007 ...with that memorable no hitter.
Its actually really sad.
I still remember watching the early innings of that game. Then going out to meet friends and I missed the middle innings. I noticed that he was still pitching in the 8th and that I was surprised the rookie was left in there. My friends shrugged... Didn't want to jinx it and then the bar erupted when the no hitter was complete. We stayed until closed. The next day in the Herald the celebrity colum said... "how did clay celebrate? Him and fellow rookie jacoby ellsbury went out and sat unnoticed at The Place in Faneuil Hall. Haha, yup thats where we were.
 

StuckOnYouk

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When he came up wasn't his arsenal different? low 90's fastball that can maybe hit 95, OK...but I thought his curve and change were supposed to be his serious weapons.

What the hell happened to his prospect weapons, jeezus.
 

RoDaddy

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Moving him to the pen should at least be part of the discussion right now. Could he be carson smith's replacement? Does he even know how to pitch out of the pen? Would he pick up 1-2 mph on his fastball there that might make a difference? He'd also be around in case one of the 5 starters goes down.
 

dynomite

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On the radio tonight I think I heard Castig say that Clay seemed willing to spend some time at figuring things out at AAA.

I wonder how much the historic banality of the 2017 free agent starting pitcher market factors in here (seriously, a 37-year-old Rich Hill might be the most valuable commodity).
 

ifmanis5

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Clay is currently at -0.5 WAR, ranking 249 out of 262 AL pitchers. One way or another it can't continue like this on a team with WS aspirations.
 

Lowrielicious

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A pitcher who apparently has serious issues with runners on base would be a pretty limited option out of the bullpen.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I just don't see the huge downside in letting him go.
What's the upside though? If DFA or DL his spot is likely taken by Noe Ramirez or Owens. Both need innings in AAA. I don't see much good in Ramirez sitting on the bench doing nothing when he could be getting innings in Pawtucket. And I think Clay has to stay on the roster for better or worse until we see what's up with E-Rod and we know if Kelly's shoulder is ok. If E-Rod is ok, I would try Clay in the bullpen. Let him mop up or whatever and see if he gets some confidence.

Edit. Kind of what patin said.
 
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repole

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Was a little sad to hear the crowd booing him; he's been really, really bad this year, but he's played a big part in some of my happiest Red Sox memories. That game 4 start in 2013 was pretty impressive considering his arm had all but fallen off at that point.
 

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At the end of the day what matters is that hopefully Joe Kelly can pick up a win every 2 outings and Porcello keeps getting ground balls. Buchholz or not, most major league clubs have an inconsistent 5 man. We unfortunately have the worst. E-Rod is not the saving grace yet either, but I like his chances over Buchholz. Runs are nice when you have a pitching dilemma though!
 

HriniakPosterChild

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Was a little sad to hear the crowd booing him; he's been really, really bad this year, but he's played a big part in some of my happiest Red Sox memories. That game 4 start in 2013 was pretty impressive considering his arm had all but fallen off at that point.
The crowd booed Foulke, who had some pretty impressive relief appearances in 2004.

Can a player be DL'd for a sprained dignity?
 

semsox

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Worse than watching Dice-K at this point. And his stuff doesn't even play up in the pen. Going to be a difficult ending to a mini-supernova career. He shone very, very bright for a very, very short time. Like many pitchers before him. Such is life.
 

pantsparty

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When he came up wasn't his arsenal different? low 90's fastball that can maybe hit 95, OK...but I thought his curve and change were supposed to be his serious weapons.

What the hell happened to his prospect weapons, jeezus.
When he came up he threw 4-seam/slider/curve/change, and then in 2011 he dropped the slider and added two-seam and cut fastballs to complement his 4-seamer.

According to Pitchf/x his change is still his best pitch, but his 4-seam and 2-seam fastballs are a lot worse than last year. Velocity isn't too different from what it's been in past years, so it's probably an issue of locating pitches correctly. His BB/9 is up by more than 1 compared to the past few years, and his ground ball rate has dropped by nearly 10%.
 

uncannymanny

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I can only imagine what guys like Rich Hill, who have to scratch and claw with comparatively minimal physical gifts, think when they see Clay pitch. He's got both unteachable and seemingly unfixable attributes.
 

Mugsy's Jock

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Yes. Pocket change. I think they give him a shot in the pen assuming ERod is ready. There really is nothing to lose letting him do some mop up and see where that goes.
Who knows? We know this isn't working.
I don't mind finding out if he can pitch out of the pen, but I'd rather see if it's an option in Pawtucket. Given how stubborn/deliberate he has been, I'd guess it's at least possible going to the pen would be a very very hard transition for him... and I'd rather have Noe Ramirez at the end of a major league bullpen than a completely untested Clay Buchholz.

Either way, DD's gotta start beefing up the bullpen depth.
 

benhogan

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Time to call up EdRo and see what he has. The next 10 games are somewhat important (TOR 3, BALT 4, TOR 3) and Clay's clear lack of confidence would be feasted upon by those hitters.

Option 1: 'Mental DL stint' - Get Clay get out of Boston, take a few weeks off and get a breather. Take MRIs, look at his diet, his work out regime, get him into yoga/meditation, some Zen shit- whatever clears out the squirrels. Look at some video with Bannister and Willis (have some vets, that Clay may respect, add a voice like Pedroia/Papi/Price), then head to Florida for 2 weeks to work on his stuff with a personal coach. Start over at Pawtucket by the end of June, like its Spring Training, and see if he can be productive for a post All Star run. Elias can be the #6 man in Pawtucket in case of injury for the next 6 weeks. If Clay shows life at Pawtucket, work him back into the rotation for whomever is ineffective or needs a mid-season breather.

Of course we'd need Clay to be a team player and agree to something like that.

Option 2: If he refuses the 'Mental DL stint', then send him to the pen, he can be the long man/mop up pitcher. I'd give him till All Star break to figure it out in the pen and if he can't we'll have Workman, Light, Martin, Elias, Ramirez, etc to come up at that point.

I wouldn't deal him for pennies on the dollar or DFA him at this stage. Its a long season and we've seen guys make comebacks before.
 
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TheoShmeo

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For those advocating sending Clay to the pen, who do you think he is more useful than? Who would you send down? I'm having trouble imagining any situation other than mop up duty when I would want him in there more than any of the existing options.
 

Byrdbrain

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If Clay goes to the pen then the obvious choice to go down wouldn't be another pitcher but would be Hernandez who doesn't have much or a role at this point.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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I can only imagine what guys like Rich Hill, who have to scratch and claw with comparatively minimal physical gifts, think when they see Clay pitch. He's got both unteachable and seemingly unfixable attributes.
That's not fair to Clay. He got rid of that rat-tail thing on his head before last night's game.

If Clay goes to the pen then the obvious choice to go down wouldn't be another pitcher but would be Hernandez who doesn't have much or a role at this point.
So you enjoy a team with a 3 man bench?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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If Clay goes to the pen then the obvious choice to go down wouldn't be another pitcher but would be Hernandez who doesn't have much or a role at this point.
So, back to a 3-man bench when more than half the infield is dinged up with various nagging maladies? Hanley's calf, Pedroia's hamstrings, Shaw's thumb...not to mention Hanigan not being 100%...now is not the time to roll with a short bench, as the potential for needing Hernandez is there.
 

Byrdbrain

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I'm not advocating it I'm just saying if Clay goes to the BP that is what will likely happen. I think Clay would be useless in the bullpen so I hope they don't do it. If Clay were useful in the BP then he would make one of the other pitchers, likely Hembree, redundant.
I haven't got a freaking clue what to do with Clay.
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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If Clay goes to the pen then the obvious choice to go down wouldn't be another pitcher but would be Hernandez who doesn't have much or a role at this point.
Clay isn't going to the pen...his problem pitching with men on base guarantees that much. And Hernandez absolutely does have a role with the Sox for as long as Holt is out, because the team needs a backup SS.

The Sox will wait until it's Buchholz's turn to pitch again until they make a decision, but as soon as Rodriguez is physically ready to pitch, they'll find something medical to allow a 15-day DL to Buchholz. Back, arm, hamstring...whatever.

But they won't keep running him out there to kill the team's momentum every 5 days.
 

lexrageorge

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Hopefully this will put an end once and for all to the chatter about moving Wright to the pen when Ed Rod comes back.

First priority should be to ensure Ed Rod is 100% healthy; rushing him back will do nothing but ensure we'll see Clay all season. After that, it should be to find a way to get the team's best 5 starters pitching every 5 days. That does not include Buchholz. At the same time, he's significantly better (understatement of the year) than Henry Owens as the option for 6th starter, and unfortunately better than just about anyone else at AAA right now (the Sox minor league system seems to be seriously lacking in starting pitching prospects right now, but that's another thread). So that means two options:

a.) Try him in the pen for a week or two. Not ideal, but probably better than trotting him out there every 5 days.

b.) If (a) fails, take the risk of a waiver claim and get him to AAA. The waiver claim is a real risk as time goes on, however, as that $13M that everyone keeps talking about is getting less and less with each passing day.
 

JimD

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We need to forget about the no-hitter, the gutty 2013 ALCS start, etc. The Red Sox had a decision to make in the offeseason and elected to exercise Clay's option despite his injury history and lack of durability. He should for all intents and purposes be considered the same as any other pitcher who they decided to take a flier on in hopes that he can regain his former brilliance. If he was someone else's former ace with a history of injuries and he was putting up the same crap performance, would anyone be advocating that he should still be run out there every fifth game?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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We need to forget about the no-hitter, the gutty 2013 ALCS start, etc. The Red Sox had a decision to make in the offeseason and elected to exercise Clay's option despite his injury history and lack of durability. He should for all intents and purposes be considered the same as any other pitcher who they decided to take a flier on in hopes that he can regain his former brilliance. If he was someone else's former ace with a history of injuries and he was putting up the same crap performance, would anyone be advocating that he should still be run out there every fifth game?
Interesting way to look at it, but perhaps the right way. He's not a homegrown star with history, he's John Smoltz. He's Jake Peavy.

I question whether Buchholz is entirely healthy. Sure, no pitcher with his track record is likely 100%, but something's not right. Even if physically he is okay, has his history caught up to him and he's now pitching scared for fear of hurting himself? Wouldn't be the first time for that. I seem to remember him being in a funk like this before (2012 maybe?) because he'd made some sort of adjustment to protect himself when he was injured, and when they figured it out and "fixed" it, he went on a hot run. Maybe a DL stint and a rehab assignment could give him a chance to "fix" it again.
 

threecy

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When he came up wasn't his arsenal different? low 90's fastball that can maybe hit 95, OK...but I thought his curve and change were supposed to be his serious weapons.

What the hell happened to his prospect weapons, jeezus.
MLB hitters quickly realized that, while his breaking pitches were nasty, they also weren't strikes. Once they learned not to chase the curveballs, he struggled mightily.

Moving him to the pen should at least be part of the discussion right now. Could he be carson smith's replacement? Does he even know how to pitch out of the pen? Would he pick up 1-2 mph on his fastball there that might make a difference? He'd also be around in case one of the 5 starters goes down.
I think there is something to be said about sending him to the pen, even if it involves a phantom DL stint to transition into it. It could be the reset he needs, similar to Derek Lowe and John Smoltz.
 

luckysox

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I think Clay will be open to doing what the club wants him to do to try to get back on track. He knows he's terrible right now. He's never shown that he's not a team player, and he's been a staple of this team for a long time. He's one of the guys who allowed the "bridge" to be crossed by this new young crop, and that matters enough to give him every chance to get right. He's not staking a claim to a spot in the rotation, and in fact has said he'd goto the bullpen if he was the odd man out, because he wants what's best for this team. I really do not see a DFA in his near future. It would be stupid to do that, in fact. The Sox absolutely need to give him every chance to get back to Good Clay, if Good Clay still exists, because the pitching depth, as noted, is so bad in AAA. They need him.

I know he is saying that he's healthy and feels as good as he has in 2 or 3 years, but I do wonder if there is underlying physical stuff happening. As was stated upthread, it could be a culmination of all of his arms issues finally coming home to roost; I hope not, because Good Clay was a wonder to behold. I hope he will hit the DL, and follow a plan that allows him time to figure out whatever is off that is affecting location so much. And frankly, if he can figure that out and there is still no spot in the rotation for him, he'd be good out of the pen. If he's throwing strikes with the 2 and 4 seamers on the paint, he's incredibly hard to hit because his change and curve are so good. He'd be devastating out of the pen as Good Clay. And that would be a fabulous turn of events, because it would also mean all 5 in the rotation are pitching well and are healthy.
 

luckysox

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And let me add that I think this sort of thing matters in a clubhouse. If Clay is a well-liked fixture, and I think he is, then NOT giving him a chance to fix things could possibly disrupt the mojo that his team has together. He is always the 1st pitcher I see on the steps when the offense is rolling, he's the first guy gesturing to JBJ and X and Mookie and Papi when they smack a double - he matters. A DFA would not sit well, and I don't think you take a chance of messing with something that is a really good thing. You DO take him out of the rotation and try to help him get right. You don't drop him like he's made of sh*t when the chips are down for him. You try to help him.
 

j44thor

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Time to call up EdRo and see what he has. The next 10 games are somewhat important (TOR 3, BALT 4, TOR 3) and Clay's clear lack of confidence would be feasted upon by those hitters.

Option 1: 'Mental DL stint' - Get Clay get out of Boston, take a few weeks off and get a breather. Take MRIs, look at his diet, his work out regime, get him into yoga/meditation, some Zen shit- whatever clears out the squirrels. Look at some video with Bannister and Willis (have some vets, that Clay may respect, add a voice like Pedroia/Papi/Price), then head to Florida for 2 weeks to work on his stuff with a personal coach. Start over at Pawtucket by the end of June, like its Spring Training, and see if he can be productive for a post All Star run. Elias can be the #6 man in Pawtucket in case of injury for the next 6 weeks. If Clay shows life at Pawtucket, work him back into the rotation for whomever is ineffective or needs a mid-season breather.

Of course we'd need Clay to be a team player and agree to something like that.

Option 2: If he refuses the 'Mental DL stint', then send him to the pen, he can be the long man/mop up pitcher. I'd give him till All Star break to figure it out in the pen and if he can't we'll have Workman, Light, Martin, Elias, Ramirez, etc to come up at that point.

I wouldn't deal him for pennies on the dollar or DFA him at this stage. Its a long season and we've seen guys make comebacks before.
Calling up Erod before he is 100% is a terrible idea. He is a 23YO with a very bright future for many years to come. You don't call him up early and hope he performs well. He changed up his delivery for his last start and, despite the strong results, his velocity was still low 90s. If you call him up before he has complete trust in his knees I'd be very concerned that he overcompensates for his knee by placing more stress on his shoulder.

The more logical call-up would be Elias who has had back to back strong outings. See if you can catch lightning in a bottle for two to three times through the rotation while you figure out if Erod improves.
 

joe dokes

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And let me add that I think this sort of thing matters in a clubhouse. If Clay is a well-liked fixture, and I think he is, then NOT giving him a chance to fix things could possibly disrupt the mojo that his team has together. He is always the 1st pitcher I see on the steps when the offense is rolling, he's the first guy gesturing to JBJ and X and Mookie and Papi when they smack a double - he matters. A DFA would not sit well, and I don't think you take a chance of messing with something that is a really good thing. You DO take him out of the rotation and try to help him get right. You don't drop him like he's made of sh*t when the chips are down for him. You try to help him.
I agree with this. At this point if he's put into the back of the pen, hes replacing Ramirez, so it's not much harm there. Ultimately I think DD and Farrell will hash it out with him. Farrell seems to have his ear from the past and DD unhesitatingly picked up his option, so even a meathead like Buchholz probably doesnt see him as the enemy.

OTOH--If the staff as a whole thinks that for whatever reason, he's reached Lincecum-land, it *is* hard to justify the roster spot.
 

czar

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As some in this thread has said, there is zero reason to just DFA Buchholz unless the team absolutely decides he cannot be a mop up guy in the pen and won't take a phantom DL trip without forcing their hand. The team has already paid for him -- it's not like they get $10m back if they let him go. The math has clearly changed somewhat since this offseason, but the general tenets hold now that they've sunk the $$$ into him. Teams don't just throw away potential value when the marginal cost is $0 (luckysox does make some potentially valid points about how just canning Buchholz w/o trying to hide him on the DL/AAA might be a suboptimal option as well)

It's actually somewhat tough to find something that's horrendously wrong in the PF/X data, so I'm skeptical that it's an obvious injury manifesting itself in that way -- this isn't a situation where a guys velo or movement has totally fallen off the table. However, his DIPS-style metrics are equally awful (as his ERA), which is very different from early season Buchholz last year (when he was also bad, but had sparkling peripherals). His SwStr% is way down and he is getting absolutely blitzed on his fastball (both massively negative linear weights) which make him look like 2012 Buchholz (4.46 SIERA versus this year's 5.12).

My supposition is the easiest thing at this point for the team to do is to DL him with a "strained elbow," have him sit for 2 weeks, then spend a month in Pawtucket and reevaluate just before the ASB.

FWIW, TBH, I'm still not 100% convinced Joe Kelly is a better August-September option than an even mildly straightened out Buchholz and ERod's lack of velocity should probably be concerning folks more than it is (he had a 4.16 SIERA last year with a 95-96 mph fastball, he's currently 89-91).
 
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HomeRunBaker

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Hopefully this will put an end once and for all to the chatter about moving Wright to the pen when Ed Rod comes back.

First priority should be to ensure Ed Rod is 100% healthy; rushing him back will do nothing but ensure we'll see Clay all season. After that, it should be to find a way to get the team's best 5 starters pitching every 5 days. That does not include Buchholz. At the same time, he's significantly better (understatement of the year) than Henry Owens as the option for 6th starter, and unfortunately better than just about anyone else at AAA right now (the Sox minor league system seems to be seriously lacking in starting pitching prospects right now, but that's another thread). So that means two options:

a.) Try him in the pen for a week or two. Not ideal, but probably better than trotting him out there every 5 days.

b.) If (a) fails, take the risk of a waiver claim and get him to AAA. The waiver claim is a real risk as time goes on, however, as that $13M that everyone keeps talking about is getting less and less with each passing day.
Any Wright chatter was really silly I don't think most took that seriously at all. I can't imagine Clay to the bullpen even being an option as that is not how he will be able to fix whatever his issues are. A 15-day mental DL trip followed by a trip to Pawtucket seems to be the most logical course of action.

There is plenty of time to determine trade deadline deals and before Rich Hill, or any other starter, is acquired we are going to get a good look at Eddie Rod and Kelly to see if there is even an upgrade available to their slots. My concern heading down the stretch is in our lack of starting depth now as Clay is presumably out (or our 6th guy) with Owens pulling his Steve Blass down in Pawtucket recently (5 BB's and 3 HBP in 3.1 last night), and Brian Johnson having his issues. I'm having nightmares of a starter going down and us watching the 2016 version of Kyle Weiland or Steve Ontiveros pitching in meaningful September games.
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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My supposition is the easiest thing at this point for the team to do is to DL him with a "strained elbow," have him sit for 2 weeks, then spend a month in Pawtucket and see what's up.
Yep. At Clay's age and mileage, there's going to be something wrong with him. I think it's very likely that we'll end up getting a "he tried to pitch through it for the team" story when it's his next start date arrives.

Then, he can continue supporting the club in the dugout, and attending the MLB pitchers' meetings, the way Rodriguez has been doing the last couple weeks. This isn't a situation like 2014 AJP, or 2006 David Wells, where the guy was a disaster both in the clubhouse and in the field, and just needed to be moved.

And if there's really something that can heal up with a little rest, the Sox might have a good pitcher available to them in August/September. It really hasn't been that long since Clay was quite good, even if he's been squirrelly since forever.

But he can't keep getting run out there to get shelled (and booed).
 

SoxJox

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CB's sawtooth performance really makes one wonder just how someone can be so consistently inconsistent. Inject his injury history and one wonders if that is the root of the problem, or if there is more of a mental element involved. Either way, it's clear that putting him out there every 5th day is like opening up a door that lead's into a vacuous black hole.
 

Minneapolis Millers

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I'd try to DL him. Absent that, maybe DD can find a NL team willing to pay $1-2M for a chance to try to "fix" Buchholz while also getting his 2017 option year. Save a few bucks, open a roster spot for Edro, get a C-level prospect back. It's not impossible.
 

mt8thsw9th

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This isn't a situation like ... 2006 David Wells, where the guy was a disaster ... in the clubhouse ... and just needed to be moved.
This isn't remotely true. He didn't like the fishbowl of Boston since he could never go out to eat and not get harassed, but by all accounts he never had any issues with the club itself.
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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This isn't remotely true. He didn't like the fishbowl of Boston since he could never go out to eat and not get harassed, but by all accounts he never had any issues with the club itself.
He's still the only player I could think of who actually publically demanded to get traded under this ownership group.