Bruins re-sign Kevan Miller?

IdiotKicker

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On the plus side I have yet to finalize my season ticket decision that opened up a few weeks ago. Looks like I can kick that down another year now.
 

lexrageorge

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But Ray always got paid. Always.

IMO Harry would be viewed far differently today if Wesley puts that fucking backhander in the net in OT.

We're getting far afield now. Although Harry in his prime was doing a helluva lot better job assembling the Bruins than Cam and Donny are.
Or if the Bruins did not screw up that line change in Montreal. The Bruins also had the misfortune of going up against a couple of super dynasties in their prime.

Most of us cringed when Sinden traded a player (or let him walk) over money. Most of the time, that player did not have that much left. Some trades flopped, but some worked out quite beautifully. Unfortunately, one of Sinden's greatest coups, the Barry Pederson trade, may yet bite us in the ass at the very end.
 

Myt1

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But Ray always got paid. Always.

IMO Harry would be viewed far differently today if Wesley puts that fucking backhander in the net in OT.

We're getting far afield now. Although Harry in his prime was doing a helluva lot better job assembling the Bruins than Cam and Donny are.
Sweeney: "Kevan brings incredible character. His signing provides us with the necessary depth that all teams need."

Character. Depth. Four years at that money for depth.

And for all this incessant bullshit about being tough to play against, I can't remember the last time anyone did something worthwhile after Rask got run.

I hate everything this management team has done, save keeping Claude.
 

TheRealness

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Agreed completely. My only hope is their drafting and player development system is not the dumpster fire their NHL player evaluation and transaction system is.
 

Maximus

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I was hoping this team would be much better with player evaluations and long term contracts with Sweeney since he is a bright guy but I couldn't be more wrong. McQuaid's & Miller's long term contracts, the Rinaldo and Hayes deals and the quick dealing of Martin Jones to San Jose are baffling. No confidence in them being able to deal for a top pairing D for a reasonable return.
 

PedroSpecialK

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I don't love this deal, particularly the term, but I'm willing to wait and see what the rest of the summer holds.

There are (a lot of) criticisms to be made - but dealing Milan Lucic for Martin Jones, Colin Miller, and a 1st - then dealing Jones for another 1st and Sean Kuraly - is not grounds for criticism IMO.
 
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Salem's Lot

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But Ray always got paid. Always.

IMO Harry would be viewed far differently today if Wesley puts that fucking backhander in the net in OT.

We're getting far afield now. Although Harry in his prime was doing a helluva lot better job assembling the Bruins than Cam and Donny are.
Harry knew who had talent and who didn't. He had more player evaluation skill by the time he was 30 then these two shit heads have put together. He was a cheap SOB but he put together 4 teams that went to the finals on pretty modest budgets.
 

Toe Nash

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I don't love this deal, particularly the term, but I'm willing to wait and see what the rest of the summer holds.
Right, since last summer showed that Cam and Sweeney were so competent.

What's the upside? They magically move Seidenquaid, and then what? We still have a replaceable 6th Dman signed to a too-big deal that the team FO thinks is going to get better and brings something unreplaceable to the team.

I just can't fathom following this team for the last two plus years and still having optimism so long as the front office is intact (Specifically Neely).
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Neely is going to skate on criticism. He always does. His playing image is still far too prevalent in most fans' minds to throw any dirt at him, plus he's always been really mealy-mouthed about his exact role in the decision-making process.

If things get even worse then Donny will get the flak. Cam will remain teflon-coated.
 

cshea

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I saw this quote yesterday from the Sweeney/coaching staff availability and it just doesn't square with the Miller signing.


I can't see how you say you want to be better in transition and move the puck up ice and then turn around and sign this deal. It doesn't compute. Maybe I'm wrong, but to my eye Miller's zone exits are either icing the puck or chipping it out off the glass. He's not mobile nor does he have vision and ability to execute a good breakout pass.

Between this and their "he still has room to grow" comments, and I really have to question their ability to properly asses NHL talent. He's 29. Defensemen tend to develop slower than forwards, but I can't think of a single defenseman that took a leap from bottom pairing/healthy scratch territory to top 4 material at that age. He is what he is.
 

Dropkick Izzy

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Is there any chance this signing was made with an eye towards an expansion draft and exposing/protecting certain players (i.e. Miller is expendable)? I know there was some in depth discussion about the rules, but I'm too lazy to look for the thread and/or take the time to understand it.

Just grasping a straws here.
 

cshea

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I suppose it is possible that the expansion draft played a factor in this, but it strikes me as unwise to commit $10mm in hopes that he gets picked by Vegas.

The only way to really manipulate the expansion draft rules is by NMC's (have to be protected) and service time for prospects (exempt for 2 years of ELC, I believe).
 

TFP

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Between this and their "he still has room to grow" comments, and I really have to question their ability to properly asses NHL talent. He's 29. Defensemen tend to develop slower than forwards, but I can't think of a single defenseman that took a leap from bottom pairing/healthy scratch territory to top 4 material at that age. He is what he is.
Boychuk basically did it in his age 27/28 seasons. I don't think it will happen here, but it's not unprecedented either.
 

Dummy Hoy

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Boychuk basically did it in his age 27/28 seasons. I don't think it will happen here, but it's not unprecedented either.
Not really...his numbers went up (a little) based mostly on increased playing time. His big leap came in the A during his age 24-25 season. He had three straight seasons of averaging ~30 points then dropped a 65 pointer in Providence. He was up pretty much for good the next season and was consistent.

Room to grow is horseshit...he may make some incremental improvements, but he's not making leaps the way a 24 year old might.
 

TFP

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Again, not saying it will happen here (or defending any part of this deal). Was just addressing cshea's point, although DummyHoy makes a good rejoinder. He was a scratch/bottom pairing guy though until 2011, for whatever reason.
 

Carmine Hose

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Haggerty says the following:

http://www.csnne.com/boston-bruins/some-questions-and-answers-when-it-comes-miller-contract

"The one facet of the four-year Miller contract that might make it okay for some Bruins fans: the tacit connection to the Jimmy Vesey sweepstakes. According to several sources around the league, the Bruins taking care of Miller now will very likely have a positive impact on their chances of landing Vesey when he becomes a free agent on Aug. 15, and makes them the front-runner for the Harvard standout’s services. Both Miller and Vesey are represented by the same agent in Peter Fish, and those are the kinds of behind-the-scenes connections that many times factor into free agent signings and trades around the NHL.

So many, this humble hockey writer included, may owe Sweeney a slight apology if paying a $10 million premium for a bottom-pairing defenseman in Miller now pays dividends in landing a stud forward like Vesey that’s drawing interest all around the league."

I find it ridiculous that people keep harping on the "they have the same agent" line with players in any sports. What does Jimmy Vesey care about whether his agent is getting a sweet commission from someone else's deal? If agents truly operated that way, they would be sued by their clients for violating their fiduciary duties. "Hey, I'm going to steer you to the Bruins because they gave some other guy a deal. Don't worry that Team X is offering more money."
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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If anything, it should make Vesey wary: how much money is going to be available to him under the cap now that the Bruins have spent stupid money on a player who deserves perhaps 1/2 of that?
 

cshea

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Money is no issue for Vesey. He'll make $850K for the next 3 years wherever he signs.

The agent angle thing is dumb though. I'm sure Fish represents clients on probably just about every other team in the league.
 

DJnVa

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So, if this is what Miller accepted, what do you think was his first offer to the Bruins that resulted in this counter?

"Hey, I think I'd like 2 years/$2 million."
"No, here's what we're thinking...."
 

lexrageorge

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Again, not saying it will happen here (or defending any part of this deal). Was just addressing cshea's point, although DummyHoy makes a good rejoinder. He was a scratch/bottom pairing guy though until 2011, for whatever reason.
The 2009-2010 Bruins did have Chara, Seidenberg, Wideman, and Ference as their top 4, and all 4 were in their prime at that time. And they also had Derek Morris until he was traded in March. So Boychuck was competing with Matt Hunwick and even McQuaid for mostly bottom pairing minutes that season.
 

Salem's Lot

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Couldn't you just see the agent alluding to Neely & Sweeney what Haggerty is saying about Vesey, then laughing at these dopes when Vesey signs in Toronto and their stuck with a stiff on a four year deal.
 

MiracleOfO2704

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I just went through this little News-and-Notes article about the Bruins bringing Loui back when I caught this little blurb:

Elsewhere, Sweeney reiterated he’ll be looking to add a defenseman who can transition the puck. He expects to come to terms with restricted free agent Torey Krug, though he didn’t say whether that will be through a negotiated deal or arbitration. He also hopes some of the prospects like Colin Miller, Matt Grzelcykand Rob O’Gara can push for spots.
First, that must be great for Torey to hear: well, agree to our deal, or we'll go to arbitration with the goal of pointing out that you're and undersized, overprotected defenseman worth only $2 million AAV. Second, what spots are Miller, Grzelcyk, and O'Gara suppsed to push for if they're also looking for a PMD? They'd already have 6 defensemen locked up, so you're just hoping to be the guy that has to hope someone else gets hurt while withering on the 9th floor.

Third, I think we discussed this back when Chiarelli was fired, but it's not things like the Iginla deal that got him run out of town, but rather needless extensions for fairly replaceable guys like Kelly and Seidenberg, holding on to the 2011 team for way longer than necessary. Little moves that ate away at the extra cap space necessary to keep Boychuk, re-sign Hamilton, etc. As much as we all love Loui, extending him without moving some of the stupid money out the door means the process will only repeat itself next year when Marchand and, possibly, Pastrnak walk out the door since JAGs like McQuaid and Kevan Miller take up nearly 10% of the cap between them. For all the talk of how Chiarelli put them in a bad spot, Sweeney and Neely are doing an awfully good job of not only not fixing it, but maintaining their cap woes. They truly have no plan beyond what looks good to them today.
 

Myt1

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Haggerty says the following:

http://www.csnne.com/boston-bruins/some-questions-and-answers-when-it-comes-miller-contract

"The one facet of the four-year Miller contract that might make it okay for some Bruins fans: the tacit connection to the Jimmy Vesey sweepstakes. According to several sources around the league, the Bruins taking care of Miller now will very likely have a positive impact on their chances of landing Vesey when he becomes a free agent on Aug. 15, and makes them the front-runner for the Harvard standout’s services. Both Miller and Vesey are represented by the same agent in Peter Fish, and those are the kinds of behind-the-scenes connections that many times factor into free agent signings and trades around the NHL.

So many, this humble hockey writer included, may owe Sweeney a slight apology if paying a $10 million premium for a bottom-pairing defenseman in Miller now pays dividends in landing a stud forward like Vesey that’s drawing interest all around the league."

I find it ridiculous that people keep harping on the "they have the same agent" line with players in any sports. What does Jimmy Vesey care about whether his agent is getting a sweet commission from someone else's deal? If agents truly operated that way, they would be sued by their clients for violating their fiduciary duties. "Hey, I'm going to steer you to the Bruins because they gave some other guy a deal. Don't worry that Team X is offering more money."
Anyone who writes something like this should basically lose their keyboard privileges.
 

TFP

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Third, I think we discussed this back when Chiarelli was fired, but it's not things like the Iginla deal that got him run out of town, but rather needless extensions for fairly replaceable guys like Kelly and Seidenberg, holding on to the 2011 team for way longer than necessary. Little moves that ate away at the extra cap space necessary to keep Boychuk, re-sign Hamilton, etc. As much as we all love Loui, extending him without moving some of the stupid money out the door means the process will only repeat itself next year when Marchand and, possibly, Pastrnak walk out the door since JAGs like McQuaid and Kevan Miller take up nearly 10% of the cap between them. For all the talk of how Chiarelli put them in a bad spot, Sweeney and Neely are doing an awfully good job of not only not fixing it, but maintaining their cap woes. They truly have no plan beyond what looks good to them today.
Both the Kelly signings and Seidenberg ones are defensible if they don't get hurt. I think Seids was likely to get hurt so it makes his signing more questionable, but I'll defend the Kelly signing and Kelly as a player to this day. I don't think it's a coincidence that the team has lost its way from a leadership perspective the last 2 seasons when he has been hurt. I think him and Thornton brought more to the table there than we all realized.

The Chris Kelly extension was not and is not the problem with this team.
 

TFP

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Although the "lack of immediate family" line about Dougie in that disaster might make more sense now.
 

allstonite

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Both the Kelly signings and Seidenberg ones are defensible if they don't get hurt. I think Seids was likely to get hurt so it makes his signing more questionable, but I'll defend the Kelly signing and Kelly as a player to this day. I don't think it's a coincidence that the team has lost its way from a leadership perspective the last 2 seasons when he has been hurt. I think him and Thornton brought more to the table there than we all realized.

The Chris Kelly extension was not and is not the problem with this team.
Right there with you on Kelly but I think do think his larger point stands. What ended up hurting was giving players like the merlot line raises on their extensions. It doesn't look bad because it's only a few million here a few million there (Toucher has been making this argument since the Miller signing), but it adds up quickly and makes the difference in being able to sign/re-sign top end guys.

I saw something on twitter the other day that McQuaid+K.Miller+0.5 million= Seguin's salary. Obviously there's a whole lot more that happened with that particular situation but I think it shows the issue I have with their salary management. Players like this are replaceable on the cheap. Why not roll with the kids we have on D and maybe buy one cheap veteran instead of having the redundant, expensive Kevdam McMiller? The kids might not be as good (though I find that hard to believe after last year) but as someone else said you can get 90% of them for less than half the cost.
 

RIFan

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I think that the Miller deal was stupid and unnecessary, but the hand wringing on the term and him blocking other players really is somewhat unfounded. The contract isn't obscene in terms of the going rate for defensemen in the NHL. If any of the kids develop quickly and Miller stays at his current level, it won't be hard to move him for something.

It's grasping at straws to justify the deal, but I can only imagine that Sweeney was concerned about the availability and affordability of DMen this summer and wanted to not get short on experienced D. The risk is, of course, that Miller's shoulder issues are chronic and his play declines to where the contract is, in fact, an albatross. Again, it's not what I would have done, but I can see a glimmer of justification.
 

McDrew

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If any of the kids develop quickly and Miller stays at his current level, it won't be hard to move him for something..
Name 1 other GM that would give Kevan Miller that contract without having to give up an asset and be ok with it.
Now try and convince us that that GM would instead PAY for that contract.
 

NickEsasky

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Both the Kelly signings and Seidenberg ones are defensible if they don't get hurt. I think Seids was likely to get hurt so it makes his signing more questionable, but I'll defend the Kelly signing and Kelly as a player to this day. I don't think it's a coincidence that the team has lost its way from a leadership perspective the last 2 seasons when he has been hurt. I think him and Thornton brought more to the table there than we all realized.

The Chris Kelly extension was not and is not the problem with this team.
This is fair and I don't disgree about Kelly. However, what does it say about this team and the "character' guys they want in the room if one guy getting hurt makes it all go to shit. SO is Kelly the only one of their "character" guys who actually has any?

I can't see how you say you want to be better in transition and move the puck up ice and then turn around and sign this deal. It doesn't compute. Maybe I'm wrong, but to my eye Miller's zone exits are either icing the puck or chipping it out off the glass. He's not mobile nor does he have vision and ability to execute a good breakout pass.

Between this and their "he still has room to grow" comments, and I really have to question their ability to properly asses NHL talent. He's 29. Defensemen tend to develop slower than forwards, but I can't think of a single defenseman that took a leap from bottom pairing/healthy scratch territory to top 4 material at that age. He is what he is.
Does the back of your own net qualify as your own zone or is that a separate entity? Because if it doesn't, Miller is awesome at getting the puck out of his own zone quickly and cleanly.
 

lexrageorge

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First, that must be great for Torey to hear: well, agree to our deal, or we'll go to arbitration with the goal of pointing out that you're and undersized, overprotected defenseman worth only $2 million AAV. Second, what spots are Miller, Grzelcyk, and O'Gara suppsed to push for if they're also looking for a PMD? They'd already have 6 defensemen locked up, so you're just hoping to be the guy that has to hope someone else gets hurt while withering on the 9th floor.

Third, I think we discussed this back when Chiarelli was fired, but it's not things like the Iginla deal that got him run out of town, but rather needless extensions for fairly replaceable guys like Kelly and Seidenberg, holding on to the 2011 team for way longer than necessary. Little moves that ate away at the extra cap space necessary to keep Boychuk, re-sign Hamilton, etc. As much as we all love Loui, extending him without moving some of the stupid money out the door means the process will only repeat itself next year when Marchand and, possibly, Pastrnak walk out the door since JAGs like McQuaid and Kevan Miller take up nearly 10% of the cap between them. For all the talk of how Chiarelli put them in a bad spot, Sweeney and Neely are doing an awfully good job of not only not fixing it, but maintaining their cap woes. They truly have no plan beyond what looks good to them today.
I get all your other criticisms of Chiarelli/Sweeney/Neely on this. But the bolded is a bit of a stretch. Sweeney chose not to say how Krug will be brought back, which seems prudent given that it's a pending (or currently active) negotiation. !1 rule in contract negotiations is to never negotiate through the press. It was Fluto that brought up arbitration and crafted the corresponding sentence. Also, Krug and his agent know the score and what it means to be an arb eligible RFA.
 
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RIFan

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Name 1 other GM that would give Kevan Miller that contract without having to give up an asset and be ok with it.
Now try and convince us that that GM would instead PAY for that contract.
I'm sorry, but what's the point of that post? How about you name one that wouldn't give up a 6th round pick for Miller? You can't, just like I can't. You can only assume.

I guarantee Miller would have gotten a better contract if he went to FA.
 

Dummy Hoy

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I think "guarantee" is a strong statement. No one is disagreeing that his AAV is market value, but it's a terrible decision for this team.
 

j44thor

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I'm sorry, but what's the point of that post? How about you name one that wouldn't give up a 6th round pick for Miller? You can't, just like I can't. You can only assume.

I guarantee Miller would have gotten a better contract if he went to FA.
This is wrong.

When you negotiate contracts against yourself, such as Sweeney did here, you should at least look for comparables otherwise you are setting yourself up for an overpay. The only comparable players to get more than a 3yr contract the last two years are Clayton Stoner (terrible signing) and McQuaid. If this was a 2yr 5M deal that might have been defensible given that none of their D prospects are likely to contribute for a few years. 4yrs for an unproven 5-7th defenseman on a team that should have cup aspirations is ridiculous.

Depth defenseman simply don't get 4yr contracts, unless they happen to play for the Bruins.

Apparently Sweeney thinks that extended term for depth players is the new market inefficiency (McQuaid, Belesky, Miller).
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Now that we're stuck with him for the next 4 years, can he at least be issued a normal sweater number? Seeing 86 on the ice always reminds me that he plays like a recent AHL callup and I'm tired of it. Talbot is gone, give Miller 25 to remind us of his 2.5 million salary instead and be done with it.

And now I'm sad again.
 

McDrew

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I think "guarantee" is a strong statement. No one is disagreeing that his AAV is market value, but it's a terrible decision for this team.
I am totally saying speculating that the AAV is over market value, and that is why this deal is especially bad for the Bruins. As of right now, Kevan Miller is the 105th highest paid defenseman in the NHL next season. His talent level is below the people near him in salary (http://www.spotrac.com/nhl/rankings/2016/cap-hit/defenseman/). And furthermore, as we've all repeated, the B's have ELC talent that can be just as competent, and this # needs to go to people who are productive.

Although, a good parallel for the FA marketplace is Eric Gryba. He has similar age, build, experience and stats, and if he goes for 2.5M/4 or higher, I'll be convinced that the market really is there for bottom-pairing guys. Until then, I'm still very skeptical.

edit: I can english good
 

cshea

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I don't think the dollars and term are out of whack. Just a quick glance at some comparables...

Mark Stuart at age 30 got 4/$10.5mm
Matt Greene at age 31 got 4/$10mm
Jakub Kindl at age 26 got 4/$9.6mm
Ron Hainsey at age 33 got 3/$8.5mm
Then of course we have McQuaid's deal at age 28 4/$11mm.

Miller probably fits in there somewhere. I don't thing the term and dollars are a gross overpay. He would've gotten term and money on the open market. Especially with how weak the FA market is this year.

However, just because it is not a gross overpay doesn't mean it's a deal Bruins should've signed.
 

veritas

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Playing devil's advocate for a bit, the alternative was losing their 3rd best defenseman. That in and of itself is a huge problem, but Miller is not a replacement level player. He's a good bottom pair defenseman right now. He's better than McQuaid, Seidenberg, Morrow, Trotman, and anyone else they have lower in the system other than Colin Miller. And very likely better than anyone they're going to sign for a cheaper deal. Ideally they wouldn't be in a position where this deal made sense, but they kind of are. This deal is a symptom of the fact that their defense is awful, but it's not crippling, and the alternative makes their awful defense more awful.

Hopefully this signing, combined with their talk of getting better PMD means that Seidenberg and McQuaid are gone. Hopefully.
 

Dummy Hoy

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However, just because it is not a gross overpay doesn't mean it's a deal Bruins should've signed.
We're definitely on the same page here, and I think we're right.

Playing devil's advocate for a bit, the alternative was losing their 3rd best defenseman. That in and of itself is a huge problem, but Miller is not a replacement level player. He's a good bottom pair defenseman right now. He's better than McQuaid, Seidenberg, Morrow, Trotman, and anyone else they have lower in the system other than Colin Miller. And very likely better than anyone they're going to sign for a cheaper deal. Ideally they wouldn't be in a position where this deal made sense, but they kind of are. This deal is a symptom of the fact that their defense is awful, but it's not crippling, and the alternative makes their awful defense more awful.

Hopefully this signing, combined with their talk of getting better PMD means that Seidenberg and McQuaid are gone. Hopefully.
Good points here, and likely what they were thinking, which makes the deal more defensible. That said, if they don't move Seids and/or McQuaid and get in some more PMD or at least find out what they have in C Miller and some of the youngsters, then this deal sucks balls, even given that they didn't want to lose K Miller and his useful game.

They can use an exemption and cut Seids' salary, no?
 

lexrageorge

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I'm quite certain they can do a buyout on Seidenberg. The only downside is that the reduced cap would be spread out over 4 years. I think the cap hit would be around $1.4M (2/3'rds of $8M remaining spread over 4 years), but not sure about that.

Honestly, given that he has a NTC, I'm not sure I see any alternative here.
 

cshea

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According to General Fanager's buyout calculator, a Seidenberg buyout be a cap charge of:

16/17: $1.16mm
17/18: $2.16
18/19: $1.16
19/20: $1.16

I would probably do it if there are no trade possibilities. He does have an NTC, but has said in the past that if he's not wanted here anymore he would waive. Their best bet trade wise for him is sending him team like Arizona that needs to add salary to get to the cap floor.

Anywho, on the Miller conference call this week, Sweeney basically said they're going to sign Krug and look to add a "transitional defenseman" from outside the organization. I can't see them bringing back 5/6 of the regular D they iced a year ago and calling it an offseason, so I assume there has to be a shoe to drop somewhere between McQuaid and Seidenberg.
 

RedOctober3829

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According to General Fanager's buyout calculator, a Seidenberg buyout be a cap charge of:

16/17: $1.16mm
17/18: $2.16
18/19: $1.16
19/20: $1.16

I would probably do it if there are no trade possibilities. He does have an NTC, but has said in the past that if he's not wanted here anymore he would waive. Their best bet trade wise for him is sending him team like Arizona that needs to add salary to get to the cap floor.

Anywho, on the Miller conference call this week, Sweeney basically said they're going to sign Krug and look to add a "transitional defenseman" from outside the organization. I can't see them bringing back 5/6 of the regular D they iced a year ago and calling it an offseason, so I assume there has to be a shoe to drop somewhere between McQuaid and Seidenberg.
What does he mean by transitional defenseman? Is that the new school term for Puck-Moving-Defenseman?

Just get a D-man who is actually worthy of a first line pairing instead of taking chances on guys like Miller to "take the next step" nearing 30 years old. There's room for 1 of those guys in the top 6 not 2 or 3.