Actually, it's amusing you think that makes your point for you. Almost as amusing as Chris Young hitting a HR off a RHP today, even though it wasn't an optimized HR.
You should read this post. It'd do you some good.
Carson Smith's elbow was killed until it was dead and there were thread title complaints.
- Thread starter soxhop411
- Start date
You should read this post. It'd do you some good.
If you care to bring up Young's numbers vs RHP again, I'm more than game. He had to play because of a doubleheader. He did well. It is not predicative of anything, nor is it a reason for you to bring up some bullshit snark out of thin air.
Secondly, the only reason Farrell was brought up at all in this topic was the general butthurt and defensiveness of the poster who replied first, but by all means, let's deflect more.
I am well aware of Chris Young's numbers against RHP. They're terrible. I brought it up because you seem not to be able to modulate your emotions on the subject and would take the bait, which you did. It was also a sly way to refer back to that other time you were both wrong and oddly angry.
The only reason Farrell was brought up was because rembrat noticed Farrell being blamed for Carson Smith's disappearance in game threads, and it turned out not to be Farrell's fault. Until a poster got his shovel out and tried to make it that way anyway.
My only current stake in this is, speaking of butthurt, stoking yours more, since you make it really easy. I am entirely receptive to a sensible criticism of Farrell. I don't have to deflect anything, since I was clearly right about Chris-Young-spot-start-gate and the fact that John Farrell is not to blame for Smith having a roster spot despite injury.
The only reason Farrell was brought up was because rembrat noticed Farrell being blamed for Carson Smith's disappearance in game threads, and it turned out not to be Farrell's fault. Until a poster got his shovel out and tried to make it that way anyway.
My only current stake in this is, speaking of butthurt, stoking yours more, since you make it really easy. I am entirely receptive to a sensible criticism of Farrell. I don't have to deflect anything, since I was clearly right about Chris-Young-spot-start-gate and the fact that John Farrell is not to blame for Smith having a roster spot despite injury.
When you declare yourself correct with nothing behind it but your own bullshit snark, you might want to look in the mirror and realize you have nothing to contribute to the board.
Except for, you know, being right. Which isn't everything, but it's something.
There are moments in debate when that's the level of rhetoric that's deserved. When it's happening to you it might seem unfair but for the rest of us with common sense and shit to do, it is a fact of life. If you still think a spot start for Chris Young when he hadn't seen action in forever is worth a self-righteous mouth-frothing where you school us on his numbers against RHP like we don't all have access to BBRef, you're going to continue not to be taken seriously. By anyone.
Why are you so obsessed with snark, by the way? I'm not snarking you. Being right isn't snark. Meanwhile you haven't said anything of substance in this thread outside pointing out that rembrat posted first "for no reason except butthurt" ... and were wrong about that too!
Time to quit while you're behind.
edit--If I really wanted to be snarky I'd ask who else's bullshit snark I'd be using besides my own?
Why are you so obsessed with snark, by the way? I'm not snarking you. Being right isn't snark. Meanwhile you haven't said anything of substance in this thread outside pointing out that rembrat posted first "for no reason except butthurt" ... and were wrong about that too!
Time to quit while you're behind.
edit--If I really wanted to be snarky I'd ask who else's bullshit snark I'd be using besides my own?
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The Young thing is ridiculous to still be bringing up, especially out of nowhere. Dude got a start a couple weeks ago that made no sense. People claimed Holt needed days off. Holt was lined up to get three consecutive days off five days later when they played the White Sox (off day, then two consecutive lefties.) There was no reason whatsoever to start Young, he predictably failed, and they lost a close game. I was right there, but as a reasonable adult, I don't think it's relevant whatsoever to be bringing it up weeks later in a completely unrelated topic. You, on the other hand, think this somehow proves a point for you.
Once again, you declare yourself correct with nothing behind it and ignore the point at hand. This is a topic about Carson Smith, not John Farrell (there's already a topic about this,) or Chris Young (and this.) The most defensive poster on the site threw this entire topic off the rails right off the bat by adding absolutely nothing, yet, I'm the asshole for pointing it out, for no reason other than you agree with his stance (and obviously, you're correct, because you said so.) That's logic at its best. For someone that likes to point out when people don't add any substance, you surely never hesitate to bring irrelevant shit up out of left field for no reason other than personal dislike.
So I think it's safe to say that after this post, the next posts in this thread should be updates about Carson Smith and not more internet fighting.
Smith going for second opinion with Dr. David Altchek Monday.
http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2016/05/20/carlson-smith-headed-for-second-opinion-on-elbow/
http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2016/05/20/carlson-smith-headed-for-second-opinion-on-elbow/
Unfortunately, I think this is going to be 2017 after TJ surgery. It would have been great to have a healthy Carson Smith, but the BP is still in much better shape than it has been with Tazawa, Koji, and Kimbrel along with the others who are all serviceable. And if need be getting some BP help (probably short term rental) later in the season should not be prohibitive in terms of prospect cost.
Or, getting PRP, getting shut down for 6-8 weeks, getting activated for 2-3 weeks, getting a consultation with Dr James Andrews, and then getting surgery.
DDski might have traded Miley for 3 years of Carson Smith.
Oh, and Elias.
There were a few caveats in the original Carson Smith trade thread, particularly by Jimbobim (many people referenced the dip in velocity last year, some spoke of how stressful his pitching style was...I even recall reading somewhere that the team needed to be cautious because he represented a real injury risk) - meaning this is certainly not a total surprise. I wonder if either team factored this into the trade. Baseball.
Two years of Miley for Elias and three years of Smith might be a deal he makes even if he knows Smith misses all of 2016.
TJ surgery for Smith. Not surprised as I though this was the case when he got hurt in ST.
Brian MacPherson @brianmacp 6m6 minutes ago
Carson Smith will undergo Tommy John surgery today.
Brian MacPherson @brianmacp 6m6 minutes ago
Carson Smith will undergo Tommy John surgery today.
Yes .. it was blindingly obvious that he was going to need TJ surgery and what was our stupid management thinking by not getting it done in March????
Perhaps you should apply for a gig with the Red Sox prognosticating arm injuries? Or, better yet please explain how this was so obvious?
A little early to determine that isn't it? This year and a good chunk of next year is gone, but so many guys come back from this injury and some barely miss a beat once totally healthy again. Smith is just 26 years old arb eligible in 2018 and FA eligible in 2021. I say this still has a chance to be the win we were hoping for, it's just not happening now and it's going to take some time to find out.
Given that you saw John Lackey help win us a World Series the year after his Tommy John surgery, don't you think this is a little over dramatic?
Exactly. And just like you can never have enough starting pitching, you can never have enough high-leverage bullpen arms.
Koji and Tazawa are free agents after this season, and Carson Smith is a cost controlled asset who is still likely to be one of our key bullpen pieces in 2017 and beyond.
Frustrating for all involved, but hardly worth wringing our hands over.
I agree. Long term for sure, not at this point any way. That said, a slight wringing of the hands over this season. I was really hoping Smith could become a part of one of those three headed monsters that a couple of MLB bullpens feature. I also have concerns as to how Koji will hold up over the course of the season.
This is a huge deal. Everyone thought his acquisition was a big win for the new manager, and now we aren't expected to wring our hands? This could be the difference between winning and not winning the World Series, and I, for one, am very disappointed. This sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wade Miley on the Sox roster probably prevents Steven Wright from getting a shot in the rotation. Not bothered with the deal in the least.
Elias showed us a lot in his last start at Pawtucket (13Ks), don't write him off just yet.
EdRo pitched well tonight and Clay is hanging on to his rotation spot by a thread
Plus we get to face Wade when we play Seattle and feast on his left handedness.
Lets see how Hembree and Barnes develop before shopping for RH relief pitcher just yet.
Elias showed us a lot in his last start at Pawtucket (13Ks), don't write him off just yet.
EdRo pitched well tonight and Clay is hanging on to his rotation spot by a thread
Plus we get to face Wade when we play Seattle and feast on his left handedness.
Lets see how Hembree and Barnes develop before shopping for RH relief pitcher just yet.
It's not exactly hand-wringing, but this opens a significant hole in the pen that needs to be filled. I'm not confident that Hembree or Barnes can do it. When you factor in Koji and Taz being FAs next year, we'll need a guy not just to help us contend this year but a late inning guy next year as well. Smith was going to serve that role cheaply. We'll need to use good prospect resources this season and/or bigger money next season. It's clearly a set-back, though obviously not an insurmountable one.
And when something like this happens, you can always wonder whether there was a different, better/safer deal out there for Miley that we passed on for Smith/Elias.
And when something like this happens, you can always wonder whether there was a different, better/safer deal out there for Miley that we passed on for Smith/Elias.
This is a good point, one of which I am sure the RS are considering. The pending free agency of Koji (as well as age) and Taz along with Smith's recovery time as well as his uncertain performance means it is likely that the RS have a need for a 8th inning type closer next year in addition to this year's vacancy. I am sure the RS will be working hard to fill this vacancy this year.
Since Smith wasn't really part of the bullpen equation, its not exactly opening up a hole. They've had two months to see what Barnes, Hembree, Ross and Layne can do and can react appropriately depending on what they see. This would have been far more significant had Smith pitched regularly and effectively and they were suddenly without him.
Calm thyself. If a starter went down I could see seeing it this way, but not a reliever expected to throw 50 innings or so, in a bullpen that already has Taz, Koji, and Kimbrel.
It's a blow, for sure, but to me it's hardly a season-killing one. And fortunately (?) it's happened early in the season where there's a lot of time to analyze the rest of the pen and perhaps target additions to be made later on in the year.
I agree. Smith's barely been a part of the bullpen at all this year, and they're doing fine so far. Doesn't mean they won't need reinforcements later on (i.e. trade deadline acquisition), but that was likely to be the case with him as well.
One name that I haven't seen mentioned as an internal option going forward is Brandon Workman. He's supposed to be ready to go around the All Star break if all goes well with his rehab. He could be a boost to the 6th/7th mix with Barnes, Hembree, Ross, et al, and all he's likely to cost is the 40th guy on the roster getting DFA.
Yes, the bullpen suddenly looks much stronger when Price and friends are going 7+ every night. That saves the pen to be used heavily in Buchholz' starts.
The performance of the offense right now is also allowing Farrell to spread out the bullpen innings beyond his Circle of Trust. If it's late, lately, it's rarely close.
This has its downside (not a ton of high-leverage innings in which to evaluate our relief options and needs) and its upside (rest for Taz and Koji; winning baseball games).
This has its downside (not a ton of high-leverage innings in which to evaluate our relief options and needs) and its upside (rest for Taz and Koji; winning baseball games).
Smith should be back by (or around) the ASB next season, so he can still be a cheap late inning guy for much of next year.
And with or without Smith the Sox were going to have to replace Taz and Koji -- this makes that search more pressing for the first few months of next year, but a lot can change between now and July 2017 (Joe Kelly might be our setup man at that point, Pat Light could be the next great bullpen arm, etc.).
This is not an update, but it is about Carson Smith. I was wondering why I was so surprised that the Sosh reaction to losing Smith for a year and a half was relatively nonchalant. Of course I don't know much about him except for what I've read here: http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/sox-send-miley-to-seattle-for-smith-rp-and-elias-sp.12093/page-2
As soon as the deal went through there was nearly general delight:
And so on. So, if one now expresses great disappointment about his injury and surgery, it is seen as an over-reaction. Is that because our pen has been good so far? Because in my opinion, one still can't rule out being bitten by more injuries and/or exhaustion, especially for Taz and Koji, and this seems like a big loss.
I think the general point is that the 2017 projected need makes the case stronger to try to get that reliever now. Then when Carson come back in 2017, the RS still wouldn't have an overabundance of 7/8/9th inning relievers. The BP has been strong thus far, but it would not be a surprise if Taz, or Koji wore down as the year progressed.
Because while it's a blow, the team has done quite well so far with the bullpen guys not named Smith, the starters are pitching deeper into games which makes the bullpen a tad less crucial, and because Smith has contributed nothing to this year's cause so his loss means one of absence instead of removal.
That's why it seems to others like you're overreacting.
That's just it -- as a unit, the bullpen has been a surprising strength while getting virtually no contribution from Smith. They're tied for 4th in the AL in reliever WAR, 3rd in FIP and HR/9, and 2nd in K/9....and roughly average with a .291 BABiP.
His loss is felt not because of performance (Kimbrel, Koji, and Taz are collectively performing about as well as Smith could have reasonably been expected to), but because of the increased exposure to attrition risk.
And while I'm always ready to pound on that drum, but the fact that the other four guys are also performing quite well means that should one of the top three guys get injured, the immediate replacement has already been pitching quality innings (or improving on-the-job), too.
Barnes could pitch 80 scoreless innings striking out 240 guys and if he gives up a homer in September some element of fandom will be there to rip DD a new one because he "didn't get another reliever when he knows that Barnes sucks."
Yeah, but some element of the fandom would only be satisfied by a team that outplays its 1000 RS to 0 RA Pythagorean line, capped by a clean sweep through the playoffs. So I'm not worried about them.
A more significant issue may be that Ross may be buried behind Barnes because he doesn't throw quite as hard, while he's having another good season like he did as a reliever for Texas.
But that's a nice problem to have, and it's even nicer if Barnes can take some steps forward as a pitcher through the season.
A more significant issue may be that Ross may be buried behind Barnes because he doesn't throw quite as hard, while he's having another good season like he did as a reliever for Texas.
But that's a nice problem to have, and it's even nicer if Barnes can take some steps forward as a pitcher through the season.
Also, if/when Erod returns and there are six starters, one of those guys goes to the pen. Granted, it's likely that whoever that guy is, he'll probably be needed to return to the rotation again. All six won't stay healthy all year. For this reason I think there is a fair chance that Wright may go to the pen, even though he's been their best starter to date. He probably would need the least time to rebuild his pitch count after a stint in the pen.
If Buchholz continues to struggle I'm willing to bet he goes on the DL. That takes care of that problem short term.
Zero chance Wright goes to the pen given his performance, and if he does, then at that point we have a whole new topic and a serious question about the decision-making process.
If Clay doesn't go DL, then Kelly heads to the pen. As a reminder though, these problems always tend to work themselves out in the end. Let us remember that under no circumstance can one have too much pitching, cash, hookers, or cocaine.