Early season bullpen thread

Rice4HOF

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K/9 also isn't a great way to measure guys with high WHIPs. If you face a lot of guys every inning, you can have a high k/9 while having a mediocre k%.
It's awful. If you strike out 3 batters in a row or strike out 3 batters in an inning while giving up a few hits, walks and runs you have the same k/9. When I coached I kept a "K per 10 batters faced" metric and it was way more useful to see who really missed more bats. Don't know why that or a similar stat isn't adopted instead.
 

nvalvo

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It's awful. If you strike out 3 batters in a row or strike out 3 batters in an inning while giving up a few hits, walks and runs you have the same k/9. When I coached I kept a "K per 10 batters faced" metric and it was way more useful to see who really missed more bats. Don't know why that or a similar stat isn't adopted instead.
K% is basically that, no? Fangraphs has that.
 

whatittakes

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Did Farrell have Light up in the pen when it was 6-2? Or did he wait until those runs started scoring to go to him to finish the game out?
He pinch hit for Price in the 8th and I'm pretty sure no one but Light was warming. Probably the 2 most grateful people in the world for that 9th inning rally were Farrell and Kimbrel. That guaranteed that there would be no need for a last second save situation.
 

LeftyTG

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Did Farrell have Light up in the pen when it was 6-2? Or did he wait until those runs started scoring to go to him to finish the game out?
Layne was warming when it was a 4 run cushion. Light didn't get up until the Red Sox started scoring. They were both warming for a while, and then when the Red Sox started pouring it on Layne sat down.
 

Doooweeeey!

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Just checked the archived game.
Light got up to warm in the Top of 9 when it was still 7-2, Bogaerts at the plate, Shaw on deck, runners on 1st & 2nd.
Layne was already warming ahead of him.

Edit: Damnit Lefty. ;-)
 

geoduck no quahog

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OK, so Smith is probably activated Tuesday.

Choices:
1. Barnes sent down (2 options)
2. Hembree sent down (1 option)
3. Layne waived (no options)
4. Ross sent down (2 options)
5. Hernandez sent down (3 options) - 13 pitchers
6. Rutledge sent down (2 options) - 13 pitchers
7. Kimbrel released

Gotta be Barnes, right? Or do they go with the short bench...

(am I understanding options correctly?)

{edit: Just saw the Abraham quote in the game thread...13 pitchers)
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Are you understanding options correctly in how many they have or how relevant hey are? Options are good for the entire year, so if they put Barnes or Hembree or the other guys on the shuttle all year it only burns one. Layne could DFAed and if he doesn't get claimed stashed in Pawtucket.
 

TonyPenaNeverJuiced

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Well, Farrell's alluding to it maybe being a position player. If it's a RP... I just dunno. The lineups we've got over the next two weeks or so are not lefty heavy besides (the Yanks might be the most so) so maybe it's Ross. I don't see a reason to DFA Layne, unless you believe Elias or Johnson should be relieving in the majors this year. Jerez is the only other RP on the 40-man and I don't think he's coming up soon, though he should be at AAA his year and will be exciting to track, having started in Greenville last year.

Barnes makes some sense but if they want him to be a long-term guy, why send him down when he's finally got some good numbers at the big league level?
 

grimshaw

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Layne is completely expendable, but I don't know how hellbent the organization is on having a LOOGY.

My gut feeling is they send down Rutledge and keep 13 until someone gets banged up.
Not sure what purpose he serves on the roster with Hernandez up as a left handed option.

Ben would probably hoard everyone, but curious what happens here.
 

Rasputin

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They should send down a position player, Rutledge or Hernandez.
Hernandez is learning how to play OF so he can be Brock Holt when Brock Holt is too expensive to carry everyone's jocks so my guess is it's him.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Hernandez sent down to make room for Smith. So what, exactly, was the point behind calling him up in the first place? Stupid.
 

HomeRunBaker

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He got into Saturday's game. And it's not like it costs that much to send an Uber from Pawtucket to Boston and back.
Precisely. This is how the 25th roster spot should optimally be utilized. I'd be making at least 2-3 situational transactions per week

Have a 13th pitcher up when the pen has been worked heavy and/or when Buchholz or Owens are pitching, send him down after the game if he's used. Bring up another utility player to replace the 13th pitcher when the pen is rested and your more reliable starting pitcher is going or even when you want to give a heavily used regular (Xander, Dustin, Mookie, etc) a complete day off.
 

BaseballJones

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Precisely. This is how the 25th roster spot should optimally be utilized. I'd be making at least 2-3 situational transactions per week

Have a 13th pitcher up when the pen has been worked heavy and/or when Buchholz or Owens are pitching, send him down after the game if he's used. Bring up another utility player to replace the 13th pitcher when the pen is rested and your more reliable starting pitcher is going or even when you want to give a heavily used regular (Xander, Dustin, Mookie, etc) a complete day off.
I agree. It's especially the case when it's physically easy to do between Pawtucket and Boston, though even when the Sox are in California this should be done.
 

grimshaw

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The only downside is that none of the bullpen guys with options have been marginal enough to deserve demotion, and if they're sent down they aren't available for 10 days unless someone is DL'd. Though I do agree it is an optimal use of the roster. I wish Layne had options.

I can't remember the last time the pen was scrub free like this.
 

Drek717

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It costs 10 days. And the activation of Smith was predictable.
10 days that they probably want him actually playing regularly in AAA. They have Rutledge as the backup MI already and if someone gets hurt badly enough to where they want Hernandez back up it would likely involve a DL stint anyhow.

The lack of a quality LH bat of the bench had been a bit exposed on the last home stand with Young looking lost every time they gave Holt a day off. The FO likely was concerned that Farrell would find himself in a critical close and late situation with no other bench options than Young and Rutledge and decided to give him an extra tool in the box. Was it likely a result of them wanting to go all-in on beating the Yankees in Fenway? Sure, but who's to blame 'em? The Yankees looked weak, heavily bullpen reliant so PH opportunities were a distinct possibility, and Dombrowski is the new guy with a manager on the hot seat. No better way to buy more slack in Boston than sweeping the Yanks.
 

Plympton91

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They also probably don't want Smith going back-to-back-to-back days for a while, or pitchin multiple innings. So keeping the extra quality bullpen depth is smart here, especially given how entrenched the everyday lineup is.

The quality they're getting fromBarnes and Hembree and the depth of Elias and Johnson to provide cheap major league ready component with the high upside prospects in the lower minors to lead a trade is really making me giddy about the potential for an impact bat or starter at the deadline.
 

geoduck no quahog

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Uehara, who was credited with 3 up / 3 down tonight, didn't look so good (unless those fly balls were borne on the wind).

11 pitches:
swinging strike, fly ball save by Betts;
ball, foul ball, fly ball Betts;
ball, called strike, ball, ball, foul ball, fly ball Young

I think Koji needs some warm weather to go along with the current regular use (but not over-use). Farrell's management of him will be interesting to watch over the next 4 or 5 weeks.

Last year he had a bad April followed by a good May (good and bad being relative) but back down a bit in June. His 2014 numbers improved from April to May to June. May was his "worst" month during his ungodly 2013 season...followed by April and the rest on another planet.

I'm trying to figure out if cold weather is hurting his split. I really can't tell just by looking at his opponents during those months (warm vs. cold venues). How does one find that out? I don't recall it making much of a difference during the playoffs.
 

HomeRunBaker

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They also probably don't want Smith going back-to-back-to-back days for a while, or pitchin multiple innings. So keeping the extra quality bullpen depth is smart here, especially given how entrenched the everyday lineup is.
The Red Sox has Smith pitch a full inning on a Friday night and another one on Saturday afternoon in his final two rehab outings. It seems that they wanted to be certain that Smith was prepared to go b2b prior to recalling him rather than place restrictions on him.
 

grimshaw

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They warmed Smith up twice last night which probably wasn't a great idea. I hope they stay away from him today.
That is one thing that drives me nuts about Farrell and that Showalter is so much better at.
Buck warms a guy up, and brings him in. I remember Miller talking about that when he was moved there, and mentioned how it was beneficial to him.

Now that they have a good bullpen, they ought to do that more often instead of trying to squeeze outs from the starters.
 

TonyPenaNeverJuiced

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Well, Buck has had the luxury of a really good bullpen for a couple of years now - Farrell, not so much. So while it's not advantageous to get a guy up and throwing and not use him, if you get a guy up in a 1 or 2 run game, and it becomes a 3 run game, is it somehow better to bring him in anyway? Maybe mentally for gearing up, a la Miller's comments, but the quarrel should be with warming him up at all, not whether he got in or not.

That said, warming up twice is close to egregious (I was on the radio broadcast making a delicious ramen, so my attention was mixed at best) - but we're also not privy to which relievers were feeling what last night. It sure seems like several folks were ready to go, based on who was used over the last few days. But I have to disagree on "squeeze outs from the starters" - going 7 strong (hopefully) does something for Buch to build consistency. He was lock-down after the first.
 

Plympton91

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The Red Sox has Smith pitch a full inning on a Friday night and another one on Saturday afternoon in his final two rehab outings. It seems that they wanted to be certain that Smith was prepared to go b2b prior to recalling him rather than place restrictions on him.
There's a difference between wanting to make sure he can do it if needed, and leaving that the only available option on some nights. Moreover, I said, back-to-back-to-back, as in 3 days in a row not 2.
 

HomeRunBaker

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There's a difference between wanting to make sure he can do it if needed, and leaving that the only available option on some nights. Moreover, I said, back-to-back-to-back, as in 3 days in a row not 2.
Ah Gotcha. With our depth now there really isn't much reason for any of our 3 setup men to be going 3 days in a row. On the bright side if there are that is a good sign.....we're winning a lot of games in the late innings. We've had worse problems the last two years.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Following the Owens/Hembree heart attack innings we had Barnes, Tazawa, and Ross combine for 6 K's on 1 BB and 1 H in 4 2/3 Innings. Lights Frickin Out while Carson, Koji, and Kimbrel getting the night off.

This is Barnes first season of not being jacked around from rotation to pen and back (recognizing that much of it was due to his ineffectiveness) and is settling in now that he knows his specific role. Giddy.....just Giddy!!!!
 

The Gray Eagle

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Robbie Ross was hitting 96 repeatedly last night on the NESN gun, pretty cool. He looked like he stumbled on a couple deliveries and I thought he might be hurt, but he finished it up well.

Ross has thrown 2 or more IP in 4 of his 9 appearances so far this season. 13 Ks and 3 walks in 13 IP.

In 219 career innings as a reliever, Ross is 12-4, 3.41 with a 1.313 WHIP. He's 26, about the same age as Noe Ramirez and Matt Barnes, and younger than Hembree.
 

BaseballJones

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Last 6 appearances by Barnes: 8.2 ip, 5 h, 1 er, 4 bb, 6 k, 1.04 era, 1.04 whip, 6.8 k/9

Kid's doing alright.
 

czar

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Last 6 appearances by Barnes: 8.2 ip, 5 h, 1 er, 4 bb, 6 k, 1.04 era, 1.04 whip, 6.8 k/9

Kid's doing alright.
Eh, still not getting swings and misses (even at 96-97) -- 6/4 K/BB doesn't inspire a lot of confidence.

Most DIPS-style metrics say he's been ~4.00 ERA guy so far this year, and that seems to fit the eye test.
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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Eh, still not getting swings and misses (even at 96-97) -- 6/4 K/BB doesn't inspire a lot of confidence.

Most DIPS-style metrics say he's been ~4.00 ERA guy so far this year, and that seems to fit the eye test.
So basically, a useful multi-inning middle relief option behind Kimbrel, Uehara, Smith, Tazawa who can keep the team in games when the starter spits the bit. For the league minimum, and matched with a LHP counterpart on the staff in Robbie Ross.

I can live with that.
 

In my lifetime

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This is Barnes first season of not being jacked around from rotation to pen and back (recognizing that much of it was due to his ineffectiveness) and is settling in now that he knows his specific role. Giddy.....just Giddy!!!!
With that being said, after the latest Owens start, there has to be some thought for trying Barnes as a starter 5 days from now.
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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With that being said, after the latest Owens start, there has to be some thought for trying Barnes as a starter 5 days from now.
The way off-days line up, there are only two necessary #5 starts remaining until 5/28, when Rodriguez should be ready to return with a good amount of AAA tuning-up.

Not to say I want to see more of Owens, but perhaps Johnson or Elias could start those two games. Neither of them look particularly ready-for-primetime just at the moment, either; but that fact doesn't mean there's a compelling reason to jerk Barnes around again, when he's actually seeming to take to the role he's been given. Heck, even Cuevas would be hard-pressed to throw as ineffectively as Owens has (although he might not be so lucky!).

But they still have 8 guys in the bullpen and that can't last. And EdRo and Kelly are on the way back. 2 or 3 guys are gonna have to go from this pitching staff.
Rodriguez will get the #5 starter spot whenever his knee's 100% and his arm strength is back. Owens, Johnson, Elias, Cuevas...the placeholder doesn't matter. Kelly would almost 100% certainly pass through waivers right now -- his salary's in the millions, he's got only 2 years control remaining after 2016, he's on the DL with a shoulder-related injury, and he "performed" to an ERA over 9 -- so the Sox could probably park him in Pawtucket if there's no ready opening when his rehab's done, if need be.

But I agree that having all three of Hembree, Barnes, and Ross in the bullpen at the same time is completely redundant. Almost as redundant as Tommy Layne (23 batters faced in 28 games...really?).

Still, if Farrell prefers the 3-man bench and 8-man pen in a stretch where the Sox play 16 games in a row, who are we to question the manager's decision?
 

TonyPenaNeverJuiced

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With that being said, after the latest Owens start, there has to be some thought for trying Barnes as a starter 5 days from now.
I think you might be the first to have that thought... The Sox seem sold on him in the pen. He's made 67 appearances between Spring Training 2015 and right now - he's made 7 starts, 2 for the big league club. He averages under 2ip per appearance, including those starts. He's not in the conversation.
 

In my lifetime

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Kelly would almost 100% certainly pass through waivers right now -- his salary's in the millions, he's got only 2 years control remaining after 2016, he's on the DL with a shoulder-related injury, and he "performed" to an ERA over 9 -- so the Sox could probably park him in Pawtucket if there's no ready opening when his rehab's done, if need be.
Kelly is getting paid 2.6 million. For a 4/5th starter even with outstanding stuff albeit not good results, there is probably close to a 0 chance that he clears waivers.
When and hopefully before ERod returns, Owens is definitely being sent down. If the RS decide to go with 12 pitchers and/or Kelly is healthy, the difficult decision will be who is the next pitcher to be moved. Of course, performance in the meantime especially by Hembree may make the answer easier.
 

HomeRunBaker

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With that being said, after the latest Owens start, there has to be some thought for trying Barnes as a starter 5 days from now.
I thought there was a non-zero chance following Owens last start that Brian Johnson would get the ball last night. After last night I expect this move to be made which would also allow so an additional position player for this weekends Yankee series by sending Owens down today.

If you wanted to get really creative with the 25th roster spot over these next two pre-ERod starts we could have the additional position player up for every game these next two weeks by giving each of Johnson and Elias one start in the rotation.

Edit: I feel there is an absolute zero chance of Barnes being thrown into the rotation after being bounced around the past two years. As was said above, he's been a nice fit as a long/middle man who can give you multiple innings with an arm that seemingly bounces back pretty well......but overall that role is probably the one best suited for him based on his production.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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I do like that idea of sending Owens down today and bringing up Marco Hernandez (or someone else, if appropriate) and then swapping that guy out in time for Tuesday's game when they need the 5th starter again. Heck, if Price and Buchholz pitch like they can and rest the 'pen, do a bullpen game, letting Hembree, Ross, and Barnes each go 2-3 innings!
 

shaggydog2000

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I thought there was a non-zero chance following Owens last start that Brian Johnson would get the ball last night. After last night I expect this move to be made which would also allow so an additional position player for this weekends Yankee series by sending Owens down today.

If you wanted to get really creative with the 25th roster spot over these next two pre-ERod starts we could have the additional position player up for every game these next two weeks by giving each of Johnson and Elias one start in the rotation.

Edit: I feel there is an absolute zero chance of Barnes being thrown into the rotation after being bounced around the past two years. As was said above, he's been a nice fit as a long/middle man who can give you multiple innings with an arm that seemingly bounces back pretty well......but overall that role is probably the one best suited for him based on his production.
According to the ProJo Rodriguez is pitching on Sunday and is expected to throw 100 pitches after throwing 84 last time around, and could start for the Sox at the end of next week if everything goes well.

http://www.providencejournal.com/sports/20160504/eduardo-rodriguez-will-pitch-for-pawtucket-again-sunday

Please, please let everything go well.

(edit: oops, got the timing wrong for Owens, we need at least one more start out of him or somebody else before Erod comes back)