Out Out, Brief Panda: Pablo To Have Shoulder Surgery
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Didn't he have a weight/fitness clause with the Giants and part of re-signing would have been continuing to have one? Being so "disrespected" by the Giants opened the door for Ben and Co. to win the Panda lottery.
Also might end his ability to be a third baseman even if he gets in shape and the athleticism come back. No guarantee that your arm strength returns after that surgery. Ask Hal McRae and Harld Baines. Makes him at best a below average 1B or DH unless he becomes a high 700 or more OPS guy again, and definitely not Papi. Hope JH will just eat the contract and go get a true Papi replacement, like one of the Blue Jays.
With all the other salary commitments, I can't see them being big players in FA for a little while. I suppose maybe for Starsburg, but not for guys in their mid-thirties. Hopefully Hanley finds his power and becomes the Papi replacement.
Yeah.
I'm a professional and I know what I have to do,'' said Sandoval, listed as 5-11 and 255. "I know where I've failed and how I've grown up. If I had signed (with the Giants), I knew I would be under a (weight) regimen for five years, and I'm not going to be happy someplace where I'm under that kind of regimen, where I can't be myself.''
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2015/03/25/pablo-sandoval-red-sox-giants-phone-number/70420466/
Not that I'm advocating for Pablo to ever play third for the Sox again, but it's not his throwing arm he's having surgery on
"We will have a more definitive explanation after the surgery," Red Sox president of baseball operations Dave Dombrowski said via text message when asked about the diagnosis.
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Can everyone just fucking cool it with the goddamn liposuction/fat jokes? They're tiresome and stupid. It's his shoulder that's being operated on, not his stomach, and obviously he's got a real injury and this isn't some cover for a visit to fat camp, or else Andrews wouldn't be wielding the knife. Making the same unfunny joke made by 30 other posters already just kills this board.
Knock it off. For crissakes. If they continue then suspensions and bannings will be forthcoming.
Knock it off. For crissakes. If they continue then suspensions and bannings will be forthcoming.
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I think that, while this has opened the door for Shaw - at this point a much better player - and seems very convenient, I think this is a big concern for the Sox moving forward. They have a ton of money invested in Sandoval. They want a good return on that investment. Unless his shoulder is what's responsible for his dramatic decline last year (and thus, fixing it will fix him), him missing an entire season due to injury can only be a bad thing in terms of getting a return on that investment. Is hurts his trade value (if, after last season, he had any to begin with). It gives the Sox no on-field production, and reduces their depth. Moreover, I still think that Pablo was a pretty darned good player for many years, and believe that he can still be that player.
So this injury is not good news for the Red Sox, even though it's convenient and allows Shaw to play with no worries about losing his job back to Sandoval. So that part is good news, but it's not a good thing to have a player you've invested so much money in be hurt for an entire season.
So this injury is not good news for the Red Sox, even though it's convenient and allows Shaw to play with no worries about losing his job back to Sandoval. So that part is good news, but it's not a good thing to have a player you've invested so much money in be hurt for an entire season.
What could possibly be funnier than fat shaming? It's the only way I can feel good about myself! Nevermind that some people have maladapted metabolisms, literally cannot keep weight off despite hours of daily exercise, and the NIH is only just learning about how those mechanisms play out. It's clearly their own moral failing and thus deserving of repeated mockery.
I'm not convinced this is good news. I'd prefer having my young player keep his foot on the pedal and NOT become comfortable that the job is his. I don't feel Shaw has nearly the same makeup as a Hillenbrand or Middlebrooks but the last thing I want is for him to feel he's "made it" and lose the edge that has gotten him this far.
I would think both Moncada and Pablo will be enough to keep him from taking his foot off the gas. Pablo has a 5 year contract, Moncada is shredding high A, and both would appear to be in the mix about this time next year. Of course all could easily be solved by a lineup that has Hanley DH, Shaw 1B, Moncada 3B, Pablo traded. But I'd think Pablo would need real innings to prove his worth for trade purposes, otherwise we'd be paying nearly all for him to suit up for someone else.
Well, from a "clubhouse distraction" point of view, perhaps.
But from a baseball perspective, it definitely would have been preferable to trade him for literally anything anywhere. That was always a long shot, but it was certainly more likely before major surgery.
The contract is what it is. It's in the past. But rehabilitating Pablo into something -- anything of value -- was hopefully going to be the future. And those prospects look awfully dim today.
Bleh.
Edited to reflect not throwing arm.
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The Red Sox announced that third baseman Pablo Sandoval will undergo left shoulder surgery in the coming days. Since Pablo plays 3B, I'm certain he throws with his right arm.
The doctor is correct.
I'm referring to performance THIS season. Pablo is out for the year and Moncada is in A-ball......I don't think Shaw is too concerned about losing his job this year and the natural inclination is for a player to relax. I was commenting to the poster above who feels this is a positive to Shaw's performance this season....I disagree.
I'm curious if this left shoulder bothered him last season and if it effected his RHH batting. Could have contributed to his decision to scrap switch hitting, and resuming that this season in ST may have contributed to the problem. Lead shoulder is subject to great deal of stress during the swing.
In general, I agree with you re: the bolded. But in this case, it is quite possible that not only might this surgery improve the player, it might also improve the perception of the player, and more specifically, the perception of the reason for the decline.
Compare him to Lackey: In 2011-2012, Lackey, like Panda today, was putting up craptastic numbers and bearing the brunt of immense fan scrutiny/abuse in light of their major contracts. It comes to light that Lackey was hurt and so he goes under the knife, wiping out a whole (overpaid) season. But the sun rose again for both Lackey and the Sox in 2013. If Sandoval can rebound to pre-2015 levels of play, he becomes valuable to the Sox, either on the field (if Shaw turns into a pumpkin and Moncada isn't ready) or as a trade chip.
Without this injury, it would be very hard for Panda to find the playing time, -- short of an injury or an utter cliff-dive by Shaw, (and I'm not sure that even in those cases, that Holt might not have been the preferred 3B replacement), -- to revive his ability and his value. In a way, this injury might allow a reset, to be seen in ST 2017.
It's an interesting idea, especially when seen in the light of the converse (inverse? I always get those confused) where according to the ESPN broadcast on Sunday, Papi told Shaw that he had an opportunity this year but that he had to step into Day One of ST ready to go. And he did.
I see what you're saying and agree with you. But you must realize that if he cools off, from May 2nd over the next 3-4 weeks (which given his start he is most surely to do), some will point at this and say he relaxed when he had no competition. It will be total BS, but its coming. /sarcasm
I don't feel it is total BS at all. I think it is a contributing factor that's all. I don't want him suddenly relaxing and becoming comfortable as this is a chance in the norm which helped push him.
Alternatively now that he's won the job and his main competition is no longer able to play he'll be able to relax and play better. I'm not sure why being able to relax automatically means he'd play worse. Not every situation or player is the same.
I have no doubt that this has probably been an issue for him since he originally injured it in 2011, specifically when it comes to his hitting from the right side of the plate. Just as I have no doubt it was the injury to his shoulder that sapped Hanley of all his strength around this time last season.
But if it was bothering Sandoval last year, I don't think it was any more significant than it had been in past years when he didn't abandon hitting right handed all together. I believe he abandoned switch hitting last season after getting hit by a pitch on his left knee. The knee didn't cause him any discomfort when he hit left-handed, so he abandoned hitting righty to expedite his return to the lineup (with apparently no consideration given to how it affected him defensively).
The bigger concern with Shaw is just that he has no real backup. Holt could slide there but they don't really have an OF to replace him other than Rusney who lost the job in the preseason. Or middle infield types like Hernandez, Rutledge, Marrero. At some point maybe Holt to 3rd, Benintendi to LF becomes an option, but we are months away from that at least.
This is for the best. Go away for a year, we can just forget about him and move on while he rehabs the shoulder, hopefully gets his conditioning under control and see what he can offer in 2017. I don't think it will end up working out, but this probably give us the best hope.
Matter being corrected in which shoulder, I now lean this way as well. Could be closer to a Lackey situation that first thought. Someone up thread said it was initially injured in 2011, so if it has been chronically weakening it could explain the drop off in performance hitting right handed over several seasons. If he can become competent again against lefties that will help move that OPS back from closer to 700 to closer to 800, hopefully.
Backup OFs aren't that hard to find. Rusney would probably do in a pinch. David Murphy probably wouldn't say "no" to a major league deal.
And then there's Swihart! :0
I don't think I agree with this.
You say he doesn't have a backup and then named 4 players who can play the position, and didn't mention Chris Young, who is a roughly replacement level LF.
In the unlikely event Shaw misses significant time, I think they'll be okay. Not many teams have a starting-caliber backup at every position, but the Red Sox have one of the most flexible rosters in baseball.
Edit: In fact, Sandoval taking up a bench spot made our roster less flexible than it is now -- Rutledge and/or Hernandez can give our starters an off day at 2B, 3B, and SS.
“@JeffPassan: Pablo Sandoval’s L shoulder surgery was indeed complicated: Included repair of labrum tear and cleanup of rotator cuff. He’s out until 2017.”
@DaveRoberts'Shoes
@DaveRoberts'Shoes
I think when fans go on moralizing witch hunts after the causes of poor performance, we're almost always wrong.
Is Pablo kind of a doofus? Probably, yeah. Is he overweight? Certainly, and somewhat inexplicably considering how much he worked out over the winter. But he's also a proud man who has played baseball at a very high level his entire life. I doubt he's content to let his career go to shit just because he got a large, guaranteed FA contract.
Yikes. I could imagine that effecting him on both sides of the ball, even if it's not his throwing arm.
Any idea when the tear occurred? Assuming he was injured in 2015 and trying to hit with a torn rotator cuff this very much feels like a Lackey scenario. Don't get me wrong, Lackey started out with a much higher ceiling than Sandoval, but if there's a logical explanation for why he was a negative WAR player last year that's at least reassuring that he could have some value to the team in the future.
Sandoval's issues seem more complex than "Batter's Shoulder", and this is just a case series rather than an actual study, and in a population of much younger men who are not competing at the professional level, but huge caveats aside:
‘Batter’s Shoulder’: Can Athletes Return to Play at the Same Level After Operative Treatment?
Background
Batter’s shoulder has been defined as posterior subluxation of the lead shoulder during the baseball swing. However, it is unclear whether or how frequently patients may return to play after treatment of this uncommon condition.
Questions/purposes
We therefore determined the rate of return to play after operative treatment for Batter’s shoulder and whether ROM was restored.
Methods
We retrospectively reviewed the records of 14 baseball players diagnosed with Batter’s shoulder. Four played professionally, six were in college, and four were in varsity high school. The average age was 20.3 years (range, 16–33 years). All had physical examinations and MRI findings consistent with posterior labral tears involving the lead shoulder. Treatment involved arthroscopic posterior labral repair (n = 10), débridement (n = 2), or rehabilitation (n = 2). The minimum followup was 18 months (average, 2.8 years; range, 18–64 months).
Results
Eleven of 12 surgically treated patients returned to their previous level of batting at an average of 5.9 months after surgery. The one patient who was unable to return to play also had an osteochondral lesion of the glenoid identified at surgery. Players typically returned to hitting off a tee at 3 months and to facing live pitching at 6 months postoperatively. All patients regained full internal and external ROM as compared with preoperative data.
Conclusions
Batter’s shoulder is an uncommon form of posterior instability in hitters affecting their lead shoulder. Most athletes are able to return to play at the same level after arthroscopic treatment of posterior capsulolabral lesions.
‘Batter’s Shoulder’: Can Athletes Return to Play at the Same Level After Operative Treatment?
Background
Batter’s shoulder has been defined as posterior subluxation of the lead shoulder during the baseball swing. However, it is unclear whether or how frequently patients may return to play after treatment of this uncommon condition.
Questions/purposes
We therefore determined the rate of return to play after operative treatment for Batter’s shoulder and whether ROM was restored.
Methods
We retrospectively reviewed the records of 14 baseball players diagnosed with Batter’s shoulder. Four played professionally, six were in college, and four were in varsity high school. The average age was 20.3 years (range, 16–33 years). All had physical examinations and MRI findings consistent with posterior labral tears involving the lead shoulder. Treatment involved arthroscopic posterior labral repair (n = 10), débridement (n = 2), or rehabilitation (n = 2). The minimum followup was 18 months (average, 2.8 years; range, 18–64 months).
Results
Eleven of 12 surgically treated patients returned to their previous level of batting at an average of 5.9 months after surgery. The one patient who was unable to return to play also had an osteochondral lesion of the glenoid identified at surgery. Players typically returned to hitting off a tee at 3 months and to facing live pitching at 6 months postoperatively. All patients regained full internal and external ROM as compared with preoperative data.
Conclusions
Batter’s shoulder is an uncommon form of posterior instability in hitters affecting their lead shoulder. Most athletes are able to return to play at the same level after arthroscopic treatment of posterior capsulolabral lesions.
Sandoval made an awkward diving attempt at a backhand stop against the Blue Jays on April 9 or 10, and the impact appeared to jam his left arm back into (or possibly past) his shoulder socket. He clutched his shoulder and winced after the play. He may have had a pre-existing condition from 2015 or from spring training, but I think that was the impact that caused (or completed) the labrum tear.
I had already written off Sandoval as ever being a useful contributor to the Red Sox in 2016, so I'm not really bothered all that much by this news (of course, it's not my shoulder, either).
For this year, the Sox seem set with Shaw at 3B, and Holt as the backup. They could always recall Castillo to fill Holt's place in the OF if needed. And I think any mention of Shaw becoming complacent is utter nonsense. He was drafted in the 9th round, and spent 4 years working his way up the system. Athletes at this level tend to be hyper-competitive.
As to who plays 3B in 2017, I think we're a long way from needing to worry about that right now. The roster in September will look different from today's roster.
For this year, the Sox seem set with Shaw at 3B, and Holt as the backup. They could always recall Castillo to fill Holt's place in the OF if needed. And I think any mention of Shaw becoming complacent is utter nonsense. He was drafted in the 9th round, and spent 4 years working his way up the system. Athletes at this level tend to be hyper-competitive.
As to who plays 3B in 2017, I think we're a long way from needing to worry about that right now. The roster in September will look different from today's roster.
So have you, but if the Sox called you and offered you a spot on the 25, you'd jump at it. Murphy retired because neither the Sox nor the Twins could promise him a spot on the Big League roster
I'm not talking about the difficulty of finding a warm body to stand in LF holding a glove. Clearly that won't be a problem. I mean there may be no productive options.
This will be a story similar to Lackey's only if Sandoval shows up next year in much better shape and stays that way, like Lackey did in 2013. If that happens, then he might be able to become a good player again.
FWIW, Sandoval's brother, who hasn't spoken to him since last August, blames Sandoval's personal trainer for Pablo's lack of fitness and says the trainer ignored the Red Sox offseason plan for Pablo.
"Sandoval's older brother, Michael Sandoval, a former minor league infielder with the Minnesota Twins, believes the conditioning issues stem from the "lack of professionalism and seriousness" of Sandoval's personal trainer, Rafael Alvarez. Michael Sandoval accused Alvarez of not adhering to the workout goals outlined by the Red Sox.
"There was never a conditioning plan as such, but the Red Sox offered their staff to support Pablo in his exercise routine. They met with Pablo's personal trainer, and they handed a workout plan to be followed for Pablo, but his personal trainer never did it," Michael Sandoval wrote in an email to ESPN. "[Alvarez] isn't guided by this plan, as shown by the results so far."
Pablo Sandoval has not commented about Michael Sandoval's criticism of Alvarez's work.
The Red Sox, meanwhile, were disappointed that Pablo Sandoval didn't lose significant weight after the end of the previous season. But one high-ranking team official also noted that the club frequently dispatched staff members to check on Sandoval in South Florida last winter and was satisfied by his progress, which included two-a-days that began in October.
"Pablo worked hard this offseason," the official said.
Alvarez, a personal trainer for retired outfielder Bobby Abreu for many years, couldn't be reached for comment. Michael Sandoval, who had been so close to his brother that he assisted in the negotiation of his contract with the Red Sox, said he hasn't spoken to Pablo since August."
Not sure how Michael Sandoval would know, since he hasn't spoken to his brother since August. At this point it doesn't matter much. Sandoval needs to have a much better offseason this time than last time. Hopefully the surgery will help him hit better next year at least.
FWIW, Sandoval's brother, who hasn't spoken to him since last August, blames Sandoval's personal trainer for Pablo's lack of fitness and says the trainer ignored the Red Sox offseason plan for Pablo.
"Sandoval's older brother, Michael Sandoval, a former minor league infielder with the Minnesota Twins, believes the conditioning issues stem from the "lack of professionalism and seriousness" of Sandoval's personal trainer, Rafael Alvarez. Michael Sandoval accused Alvarez of not adhering to the workout goals outlined by the Red Sox.
"There was never a conditioning plan as such, but the Red Sox offered their staff to support Pablo in his exercise routine. They met with Pablo's personal trainer, and they handed a workout plan to be followed for Pablo, but his personal trainer never did it," Michael Sandoval wrote in an email to ESPN. "[Alvarez] isn't guided by this plan, as shown by the results so far."
Pablo Sandoval has not commented about Michael Sandoval's criticism of Alvarez's work.
The Red Sox, meanwhile, were disappointed that Pablo Sandoval didn't lose significant weight after the end of the previous season. But one high-ranking team official also noted that the club frequently dispatched staff members to check on Sandoval in South Florida last winter and was satisfied by his progress, which included two-a-days that began in October.
"Pablo worked hard this offseason," the official said.
Alvarez, a personal trainer for retired outfielder Bobby Abreu for many years, couldn't be reached for comment. Michael Sandoval, who had been so close to his brother that he assisted in the negotiation of his contract with the Red Sox, said he hasn't spoken to Pablo since August."
Not sure how Michael Sandoval would know, since he hasn't spoken to his brother since August. At this point it doesn't matter much. Sandoval needs to have a much better offseason this time than last time. Hopefully the surgery will help him hit better next year at least.
Any examples of this phenomenon? Not someone who was exposed after a time at the ML level, but a player who failed because he stopped trying hard enough or whatever.
I just named two specific Red Sox players at the same position who quickly became entitled. It occurs in the NBA frequently when you hand players jobs and they quickly forget he work it took to get them there. Antoine Walker has always been the poster boy for this.
So Middlebrooks failed because he became entitled, and not, say, because he couldn't hit the curveball? He's certainly not entitled now, toiling away in the Brewers' minor league system, and yet he still can't hit the curve. Seems to me entitled had little to do with it. Never mind that you haven't actually provided any evidence he became entitled. How do we know some players don't play better once they don't have to keep looking over their shoulder at a potential replacement?
And Antoine Walker had a fine career by anyone's standards.
And Antoine Walker had a fine career by anyone's standards.
OK, let's take those two players. Please provide the evidence that they "became entitled" and also that this was the reason for their failures. I'd love to see it.
I'd love to hear what type of empirical evidence you're looking for. A competitor who no longer faces competition doesn't have that additions drive to perform. Some need that and some don't in any line of work not only baseball.
I'm certainly not saying this WILL happen only not discounting that it couldn't. The bothersome part was the post saying yes he could go into a slump but it won't be due to a lack of job competition.....how can that lack of competition and/or entitlement be eliminated as a cause?
So what evidence do we have that Hillenbrand stopped trying? In his 2.5 seasons with the Red Sox, he put up an OPS of 0.682, 0.789, and 0.778 before he was traded for BK Kim. He was what he was: a decent player, good enough to make two All-Star teams, but also somewhat fungible. He was washed up by 31, but that happens to a number of players that try hard every day. In fact, it's quite possible that his efforts kept him from being washed up at 27.
Middlebrooks is just one of many players that's washed out over the years after a BABIP-fueled hot start.
Middlebrooks is just one of many players that's washed out over the years after a BABIP-fueled hot start.
Something that's not purely your opinion/armchair psychology would be a good start.
Ok, so we have a generic statement about competition that is ludicrously, and wrongly, black and white.
Much easier than it can be wantonly ascribed, that's for sure.
You guys can't prove that aliens didn't kidnap and replace the bodies of Hillenbrand and Middlebrooks with robots, either. How could that be eliminated as a cause of their failures?
(it's fun to tell people they have the burden of proving an unobservable negative!)
(it's fun to tell people they have the burden of proving an unobservable negative!)
There is actually some evidence that WMB problem was the opposite of entitlement.
http://www.providencejournal.com/article/20130626/SPORTS/306269981
http://www.providencejournal.com/article/20130626/SPORTS/306269981
There are 5 potential causes of a hypothetic Shaw slump going forward:
1.) The old Mistress of BABIP. It's currently sitting around 0.419 right now, so there is definitely room for regression.
2.) Pitchers making adjustments based on scouting reports.
3.) Nagging owie that gets unreported during the season but affects his swing.
4.) Shaw starts seeing more left handed pitchers, against which he currently has a 0.294 OPS in a irrelevant sample of 17 at bats.
5.) Shaw, an unheralded prospect that had to scratch and claw his way through the minors, suddenly decides he can back off, despite the fact that the team could always DFA or option him at essentially zero cost?
Which of these 5 is most believable?
1.) The old Mistress of BABIP. It's currently sitting around 0.419 right now, so there is definitely room for regression.
2.) Pitchers making adjustments based on scouting reports.
3.) Nagging owie that gets unreported during the season but affects his swing.
4.) Shaw starts seeing more left handed pitchers, against which he currently has a 0.294 OPS in a irrelevant sample of 17 at bats.
5.) Shaw, an unheralded prospect that had to scratch and claw his way through the minors, suddenly decides he can back off, despite the fact that the team could always DFA or option him at essentially zero cost?
Which of these 5 is most believable?
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