The 2016 Offensive Line: Dante's Purgatorio

soxfan121

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I find myself wondering what the 16 line will look like, and while I am a longtime Dante fanboy (check my archive at ITP - first piece I wrote for the site), I am also curious as to how he will use the talent now available.

First, pencil in Solder at LT and Vollmer at RT. I think Cannon is the backup, unless they find a good value in the draft they are confident they can turn into a competent backup in training camp. Waddle is depth piece and while it is possible he develops and blossoms under Dante, it is far more likely he is a training camp cut. A late round pick or UDFA makes a ton of sense.

The most intriguing spot on the line is center. I dunno about youse guys, but I'm off #teamStork and his head-bobbing ways.

Mason - as a center - seems to have lots of potential to me. Moving him (using the full offseason and training camp) is realistic. And he's so super athletic, and so packed with potential, that I can't help wanting him on the team. However, because I'd pencil Stork in as the backup - that would mean shopping Andrews for a pick, either at the 16 draft OR in training camp.

I think the investment on Cooper means he's going to get first crack at the LG spot, with Jackson & Kline in a death match for the RG slot. The loser of the competition joins Stork and Cannon/Tackle-to-be-named as the primary backups.

Solder - Cooper - Mason - Kline - Vollmer (Stork - Cannon - Jackson as the top backups)

Stork's versatility to play a half or more at any spot on the line on an emergency basis, makes him a guy I keep around unless the trade offer is too good. But I will never trust him again after what he did in the AFC CG. Never. That's twice he's done it, and both times it has led to almost getting Brady killed. Schofield wrote about it after the KC game in 2015 and Kibbey detailed after the 2016 game. It's a habit Stork falls into when under pressure. Cannot be trusted.
 

RedOctober3829

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I really like the idea of Mason at center. Bill seems to love his athleticism and versatility so if Stork is not the answer at center it makes sense to put Shaq there.

I'd really like them to draft another mid-round guard. I'm not sold on anyone on the roster to play RG at a high enough level. Jackson has the most potential and maybe Scar can get him there but it's still a question mark at best.
 

Eck'sSneakyCheese

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I actually think Andrews did a great job when thrust into action at Center. The strongest the o-line looked last year was when he was in the middle. Andrews at center would allow Mason to play RG and Copper at LG which could be a damn strong interior line.

I'd also like to see them draft a guard and I'd love to see them get a tackle with one of their higher picks. I'm still leery on how effective Solder is/will be going forward. He looks like a complete mess at times. I don't think he can handle edge rushers anymore.
 
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No one is happy with how Stork played (and tipped off Denver) during the AFCCG, but the mad rush to shove him out of the way and down the depth chart seems a bit reactionary and wildly premature to me.

I'd like to take a breath, add depth at tackle (and save cap by cutting Cannon) and keep Mason at guard - along with Cooper, Jackson and Kline - while seeing where we are with a potentially very positive situation at center, given the overall promising play of both Stork AND Andrews, both young players. Why move/add Mason to center when there's a decent chance the Pats (and Dante) have a very solid situation there?
 

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Instead of benching a guy who's been an excellent center for most of two years maybe the coaches could help him not bob his head any more.
 

soxfan121

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Instead of benching a guy who's been an excellent center for most of two years maybe the coaches could help him not bob his head any more.
Hmmmm, I am wary of blaming coaches for the way a player performs on the field.

Especially when it is clear the coach DID address it after it happened the first time - at KC, in his first start, in 2015 - and then effectively made it a non-issue for most of the next two years.

But let's look at the commonalities between that KC game in 2015 and the Broncos AFC CG game in 2016:
- On the road
- Stadium known for loud crowd noise
- Opponent with speed/edge rush talent going against an OL that is "in flux"

I don't think Stork's issue is likely to show up Week 1 at home against (whomever). Nor do I think it will happen in the "next big game". Nor do I think a coach can help him with what is - essentially - a nervous tick that surfaces only under certain circumstances.

Further, I'd dispute the idea that Stork has been "an excellent center for most of two years" and I'd need to see some proof of that - either video or analysis from a line play expert - before I accepted it. And I've got nothing but respect for Shelterdog's football knowledge, but I've seen line play experts who are not Pats fans who don't like aspects of Stork's game, and would not agree to that description. So... I think we need to be careful (as fans) of overrating the player because he's both quirky and likable.

But back to coaching - this was (apparently) something that Dante was engaged on as part of his retirement/consigliere phase. And he helped "coach him up" after the KC disaster. For it to resurface in similar circumstances more than a year later leads me to believe that it isn't fixable.

Further, the overall idea here is to get the five most physically talented players on the field at the same time. Mason's ceiling - if he is "coached up" might be "best C in the league". Stork's ceiling is 2015 Stork. Much lower. Again, I'm using inside sources and such to make such a call - but I trust those sources, and I think mitigating Mason's biggest weakness is a big deal. As is using the versatility of Stork as a backup. These are not things I can cite with a source, so it's up to you whether to buy it or not.

What isn't debatable is that this head-bobbing problem might not be something a coach can fix. That it is a problem that can mitigated, and that there's a possibility that Stork is the best person for the job. But...it's March/April. We're a long way from knowing. And moving Mason - as RO notes - is an intriguing possibility.
 

soxfan121

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This. Shouldn't someone in the booth have picked up on it during the game?
FWIW, Ware and Miller claim they didn't pick up on it during the game. Per a podcast guest we had this offseason, it can happen to anyone, at any time. The OL union were adamant in their defense of Stork, and maintained we (i.e. fans) were blowing up something that matters very little to the pros.

Again, YMMV if you believe that. But I did go watch film of that guy's teammate (at center) and never once saw him lay on a head-bob with such timing as the one Stork was using. Lots of centers DO use a head bob - but they are smart enough to vary the timing. And one encroachment call maybe changes the entire dynamic. Lots of moving pieces here.

But no, it's not something "the booth" would pick up on. It is much more like a pitcher tipping a pitch - there's a reason whenever it happens, there's a bunch of "well, did that actually happen?" discussion AND something that happens over the course of several games. It isn't as simple as we think it is.
 

soxfan121

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I actually think Andrews did a great job when thrust into action at Center. The strongest the o-line looked last year was when he was in the middle. Andrews at center would allow Mason to play RG and Copper at LG which could be a damn strong interior line.

I'd also like to see them draft a guard and I'd love to see them get a tackle with one of their higher picks. I'm still leery on how effective Solder is/will be going forward. He looks like a complete mess at times. I don't think he can handle edge rushers anymore.
Andrews went undrafted for a reason. He performed well - and at his ceiling - in action last year. He lacks the ahtleticism to do many things however, particularly, move and pull. He also lacks strength and can (and was) bullrushed too often. He's an excellent backup, or a stop-gap / replacement level starter. But let's not confuse that for "the best we could at the position". Because he is far from that.
 

soxfan121

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I really like the idea of Mason at center. Bill seems to love his athleticism and versatility so if Stork is not the answer at center it makes sense to put Shaq there.

I'd really like them to draft another mid-round guard. I'm not sold on anyone on the roster to play RG at a high enough level. Jackson has the most potential and maybe Scar can get him there but it's still a question mark at best.
I'd rather that RG be a veteran who could provide some help in the film and meeting rooms. Fans have dramatically overrated what Dante can (and cannot do) for the team, and the biggest area is in leadership, etc.

Mankins, at the end of his tenure here, was valued almost as much for his off-field attributes as his on-field play. The Belichick era has often featured veterans in leadership roles, or on the roster to provide guidance to more talented younger guys.

FTR, I don't think that was a very big problem last season but I doubt we'd see another "yute" added. But a veteran likely to retire during camp? Oh yes, I think we'll get one of those after the draft.
 

RedOctober3829

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I'd rather that RG be a veteran who could provide some help in the film and meeting rooms. Fans have dramatically overrated what Dante can (and cannot do) for the team, and the biggest area is in leadership, etc.

Mankins, at the end of his tenure here, was valued almost as much for his off-field attributes as his on-field play. The Belichick era has often featured veterans in leadership roles, or on the roster to provide guidance to more talented younger guys.

FTR, I don't think that was a very big problem last season but I doubt we'd see another "yute" added. But a veteran likely to retire during camp? Oh yes, I think we'll get one of those after the draft.
In your opinion, who is available on the open market that would fit our system the best and be an upgrade over the incumbents?
 

soxfan121

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In your opinion, who is available on the open market that would fit our system the best and be an upgrade over the incumbents?
Ooh, that's well phrased. No one. The upside of the yutes exceeds anyone currently on the market (and affordable). So there's no "upgrade" I see.

There's more than a half-dozen "veteran leader" types on the market who I can see retiring in camp. Had he not filed papers, I could have seen Mankins being coaxed back for a camp with Dante. That would be the ideal of what I was describing/envisioning.

That said, the yutes are talented and there's enough of them that the "leadership" thing is more just of whim than a likelihood.
 

PedroKsBambino

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But no, it's not something "the booth" would pick up on. It is much more like a pitcher tipping a pitch - there's a reason whenever it happens, there's a bunch of "well, did that actually happen?" discussion AND something that happens over the course of several games. It isn't as simple as we think it is.
Teams do pick up on their own pitcher's tipping a pitch, though, and teams certainly could pick up on something like the headbob. I'm puzzled what sources you'd cite for your statement above.

Mind you, I agree it is complicated to assess specifically what happened with Stork, but you've stated a broader point and I guess I'm curious how you got there...especially since you're suggesting all over this forum people should back up their opinions and you consistently have not.
 

soxfan121

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Teams do pick up on their own pitcher's tipping a pitch, though, and teams certainly could pick up on something like the headbob. I'm puzzled what sources you'd cite for your statement above.

Mind you, I agree it is complicated to assess specifically what happened with Stork, but you've stated a broader point and I guess I'm curious how you got there...especially since you're suggesting all over this forum people should back up their opinions and you consistently have not.
If you'd like a source on the "coaches booth" not picking up Stork's head bob, I refer you to Tom E. Curran's archive - specifically anything written in the days after the AFC CG.

Unfortunately, I cannot give you the name of the NFL offensive lineman ITP spoke to about this because he requested it be off the record. But if you were a dutiful fan of our podcast, a smart guy like you could do the math.

Either way, I don't give a shit what you think you're entitled to. And since this shit continues to come up despite my attempt to CLEARLY address it, I suppose I'll stop posting here. So - you get everything you've ever wanted. Enjoy!
 

Super Nomario

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First, pencil in Solder at LT and Vollmer at RT. I think Cannon is the backup, unless they find a good value in the draft they are confident they can turn into a competent backup in training camp. Waddle is depth piece and while it is possible he develops and blossoms under Dante, it is far more likely he is a training camp cut. A late round pick or UDFA makes a ton of sense.
They save almost $3.7MM against the cap by cutting Cannon, so he's going to have to be a lot better than Waddle and Fleming to make the team. With Vollmer getting up there in age, I could definitely see them using one of the second-rounders on a RT of the future and cutting Cannon.

The most intriguing spot on the line is center. I dunno about youse guys, but I'm off #teamStork and his head-bobbing ways.
My understanding (based on part on the comments from the NFL OL you mention downthread, IIRC) was that the issue was not so much Stork's head bob as that the Patriots didn't vary the snap count. I imagine that would be more on Brady and / or the coaching rather than Stork. That said, I've always thought the idea that Stork saved the OL in 2014 was wildly overblown and haven't seen much to suggest he's better than average, at best.

Mason - as a center - seems to have lots of potential to me. Moving him (using the full offseason and training camp) is realistic. And he's so super athletic, and so packed with potential, that I can't help wanting him on the team. However, because I'd pencil Stork in as the backup - that would mean shopping Andrews for a pick, either at the 16 draft OR in training camp.
I have two issues with Mason at center. One, in man pass protection schemes, the center is usually the extra guy who doesn't have a defined blocking responsibility at the snap but must stay aware of games / stunts and / or helping the guys around him. Given Mason's inexperience with pass blocking, that seems like lot to ask of him. Two, in a man / power blocking scheme, the center doesn't get to pull as much as the guards do. I think Mason probably fits as a center better in a zone blocking scheme. (The Pats run both, but more man / power)

Kline got some snaps at center in camp last year, and the Cardinals were talking about moving Cooper to center this year if he'd stayed in Arizona. Either of those options make more sense to me than putting Mason there even if you're dead set on getting Stork out of the lineup.

I think the investment on Cooper means he's going to get first crack at the LG spot, with Jackson & Kline in a death match for the RG slot. The loser of the competition joins Stork and Cannon/Tackle-to-be-named as the primary backups.
The Cooper acquisition is interesting because he and Mason have similar builds and movement skills. Does that mean they want to start both of them and make their run attack more multi-dimensional? Does it mean they like the idea of Mason but want someone more solid in pass protection, so Cooper and Mason are competing for one spot? Jackson is the only guy who's in kind of a bigger mold, if they want a more complementary starter at the other G spot.

There's more than a half-dozen "veteran leader" types on the market who I can see retiring in camp. Had he not filed papers, I could have seen Mankins being coaxed back for a camp with Dante. That would be the ideal of what I was describing/envisioning.
Wendell's still unsigned - he seems like the obvious option, with experience at all three interior spots and a defined floor, assuming he's over whatever was going on with him last year. He's another smaller guy, for what that's worth.
 

PedroKsBambino

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The point made earlier was that the booth should have picked it up; you are suggesting the booth did not pick it up. Those are materially different, thus my question.

I have no problem with anyone having whatever opinions they want to have---I think that's largely what we do here, and people can assess how much weight (if any) to give someone's opinion based on their track record, what they cite, and how they make their point.

However, if someone is going to try to play the game of "you have to cite something if you disagree with me" I think it needs to be a two-way street. I think we're better off as a board without anyone doing that stuff, personally.
 

Eck'sSneakyCheese

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Andrews went undrafted for a reason. He performed well - and at his ceiling - in action last year. He lacks the ahtleticism to do many things however, particularly, move and pull. He also lacks strength and can (and was) bullrushed too often. He's an excellent backup, or a stop-gap / replacement level starter. But let's not confuse that for "the best we could at the position". Because he is far from that.
I don't know if I'd write him off because he went undrafted. His small frame does get him pushed around and that was likely why he wasn't expected to do much in the NFL, but he is far from un-athletic. At Georgia he was mainly asked to move and pull and was touted for his quickness. Playing in the SEC he didn't give up a sack in his final 2 years, starting every game. A big part of his play centers (no pun intended) on his mental toughness and football acumen, which likely has a large part in BB taking a chance on him. I think his ability to adapt and read defenses gives him a slight edge over Stork, even though Stork is more physically gifted. You might be correct in stating he's just a backup, but he's really not far from the best they could do. At least with the roster as it currently sits.
 

Shelterdog

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Hmmmm, I am wary of blaming coaches for the way a player performs on the field.

Especially when it is clear the coach DID address it after it happened the first time - at KC, in his first start, in 2015 - and then effectively made it a non-issue for most of the next two years.

But let's look at the commonalities between that KC game in 2015 and the Broncos AFC CG game in 2016:
- On the road
- Stadium known for loud crowd noise
- Opponent with speed/edge rush talent going against an OL that is "in flux"

I don't think Stork's issue is likely to show up Week 1 at home against (whomever). Nor do I think it will happen in the "next big game". Nor do I think a coach can help him with what is - essentially - a nervous tick that surfaces only under certain circumstances.

Further, I'd dispute the idea that Stork has been "an excellent center for most of two years" and I'd need to see some proof of that - either video or analysis from a line play expert - before I accepted it. And I've got nothing but respect for Shelterdog's football knowledge, but I've seen line play experts who are not Pats fans who don't like aspects of Stork's game, and would not agree to that description. So... I think we need to be careful (as fans) of overrating the player because he's both quirky and likable.

But back to coaching - this was (apparently) something that Dante was engaged on as part of his retirement/consigliere phase. And he helped "coach him up" after the KC disaster. For it to resurface in similar circumstances more than a year later leads me to believe that it isn't fixable.

Further, the overall idea here is to get the five most physically talented players on the field at the same time. Mason's ceiling - if he is "coached up" might be "best C in the league". Stork's ceiling is 2015 Stork. Much lower. Again, I'm using inside sources and such to make such a call - but I trust those sources, and I think mitigating Mason's biggest weakness is a big deal. As is using the versatility of Stork as a backup. These are not things I can cite with a source, so it's up to you whether to buy it or not.

What isn't debatable is that this head-bobbing problem might not be something a coach can fix. That it is a problem that can mitigated, and that there's a possibility that Stork is the best person for the job. But...it's March/April. We're a long way from knowing. And moving Mason - as RO notes - is an intriguing possibility.
There's a lot here but to hit the highlights:

1.) I'm not blaming the coaches for Stork bobbing his head--it's a purely technical issue that strikes me as a correctable technique mistake
2.) Who are the oline gurus who say Stork is not good? I haven't seen them and am curious.
3.) What is the source for Dante working with Stork in particular or fixing Stork's head bob post KC game? I haven't seen this anywhere.
4.) How on earth is it not debatable that coaching can't fix the head bob? I'll betcha they can.

EDIT: And who the hell are the mods in this forum? I can't keep track any more.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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There's a lot here but to hit the highlights:

1.) I'm not blaming the coaches for Stork bobbing his head--it's a purely technical issue that strikes me as a correctable technique mistake
2.) Who are the oline gurus who say Stork is not good? I haven't seen them and am curious.
3.) What is the source for Dante working with Stork in particular or fixing Stork's head bob post KC game? I haven't seen this anywhere.
4.) How on earth is it not debatable that coaching can't fix the head bob? I'll betcha they can.

EDIT: And who the hell are the mods in this forum? I can't keep track any more.
1) I agree. I don't see how it's not curable.
3) Dante was retired at that point so I think wires are crossed somewhere. Unless I'm screwing up the timeline.
4) I have no idea and I also have no idea how one can claim that two games of it occurring are reason to cut bait while also claiming that if the opposing players didn't pick up on it (unless you think they're lying) and coaches couldn't pick up on it during the game. If it's so bad (which I am open to believing it was) than I find it hard to not find fault with the coaching staff for not picking up on it. The "tipping pitches" comp seems weak to me. Baseball games don't have coaches in the booth reviewing plays real time and relaying aerial views and adjustments to the sideline between series. It's far more subtle and really only noticeable from the batters eye and you don't see adverse results that tell you anything until a larger sample size over multiple games emerges. If they reviewed the kc game and realized he was doing it they should have been on top of it when it became an issue in Denver, imho.
 
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Shelterdog

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3) Dante was retired at that point so I think wires are crossed somewhere. Unless I'm screwing up the timeline.
.
Dante was doing some stuff in the background (I think the PFW guys said he was coming in about one day a week). I have no idea exactly what he was working on in that time.
 

Super Nomario

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FWIW, the Bleacher Report Top 1000 rankings (the OL ones, if I'm not mistaken, are done by Duke Manyweather):

Left guard:
Kline #20 (32/45 pass pro, 35/45 run)
Mason #19 (30/45 pass, 38/45 run)
Right guard:
Jackson #31 (29/45 pass, 28/45 run)
Cooper #19 (33/45 pass, 32/45 run)
Center:
Andrews #28 (33/45 pass, 30/45 run)
Stork #20 (33/45 pass, 38/45 run)
Left tackle:
Vollmer #26 (27/45 pass, 35/45 run)
Right tackle:
Waddle #33 (24/45 pass, 29/45 run)
Fleming #27 (25/45 pass, 33/45 run)
Cannon #26 (26/45 pass, 33/45 run)

This says it all, huh? Below-average at every position along the OL. Vollmer was the #3 RT in 2014, Solder was #21 at LT, so some hope for improvement there.
 

Hoodie Sleeves

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I wouldn't read too much into rankings like that - offensive line is so intermingled that often what people blame a guard for is really the tackle's fault and vice-versa - and its really tough to do your job when the guy next to you is making a ton of mistakes.
 

bakahump

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I think its great we have options.
Cooper, Mason and the possible/probable improvement of Jackson give us alot of hope.

I also think that Solder and Seabass coming back will be a huge lift to the line. THOSE injuries were what took the team down. Cannon was an abject disaster....which is too bad because we invested alot of time treasure and hope into him.

Solder-Cooper-Stork-Mason/Jackson-Volmer Is a good line. Especially when TB can get the ball out quickly. (Just not sub 2 seconds quick).

The question becomes can they stay healthy. Did another Team lose more OL games then we did last year?

I also still think Edelman was not 100% which hurt that quick rhythm offense that dominated the league for 13 weeks last year.

Jettisoning Stork because of that game is shortsighted. Remember he was fine to very good against a tough Seattle defense. Worse case now that we know its a possible "Pattern" we can be aware of it. After the KC game it was probably forgotten about. Now if we notice a series of insane pass rushes we can all it too his attention and nip it in bud. Also it might be a fantastic weapon in a few games if he can change it up. Defenses will be keying on it.... until they Jump offsides.

While I agree that more talent would be great.....its a bad year to be beating that drum considering the draft pick situation.
In short a major overhaul is not needed (and probably not possible....and if possible would probably not show much improvement over big chunks of last year).....some stability (and injury luck) is.
 

troparra

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bakahump

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Interesting that Denver and NE are both there.
I wonder if that actually helps the "consistency" argument.

Didnt Denver lose 2 starters really early (essentially 2x 16 = 32)
While the Pats suffered from 1 long injury (Solder) and numerous 2-3-4 game injuries.

Essentially Denver had time to gel....while the Pats got worse as things went on.

Of course on both teams the OLs where the weak links (except QB in Denver haahhaahah).
 

Reverend

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There's a lot here but to hit the highlights:

1.) I'm not blaming the coaches for Stork bobbing his head--it's a purely technical issue that strikes me as a correctable technique mistake
2.) Who are the oline gurus who say Stork is not good? I haven't seen them and am curious.
3.) What is the source for Dante working with Stork in particular or fixing Stork's head bob post KC game? I haven't seen this anywhere.
4.) How on earth is it not debatable that coaching can't fix the head bob? I'll betcha they can.

EDIT: And who the hell are the mods in this forum? I can't keep track any more.
Somebody find me a new job and I will restore order to this sub-forum!!

Or is it a forum? Which are for and which sub-fora? I can never remember...
 

Super Nomario

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The selection of Thuney is really interesting - he's kind of a tweener in that he's tall for a guard at 6'5" but has really short arms at 32 1/4" (4th percentile for an OT). He's played both guard and tackle. If they see him as an interior guy, he's the highest-drafted interior guy since Mankins. Generally speaking, if you draft a G in the third round, you expect him to at least compete for a starting gig - especially when none of the other options inside is a proven player.

Then they drafted Ted Karras in the 6th round. I hope they cut him because there is a 1000% chance I keep calling him Alex Karras. Presumably he's a long shot as a sixth-round pick, but generally you don't draft someone if they have no chance of making a team, and I would have thought a G had no chance of making a team that already had Cooper / Jackson / Mason / Kline / Thuney for two guard spots. I guess there's the option of moving Cooper, Kline, or Mason to C - or maybe even Karras.

Either way, I don't think any of the incumbent guards (Jackson / Mason / Kline) is a lock to stick, I'm not sure either of the centers (Stork / Andrews) is, and I don't know that Cooper is, either. It looks to me like Cannon has a chance to stick again, unless they think Thuney can play OT or they really like LaAdrian Waddle. There's also this Tweet from Mike Loyko:

#ND Coach Brian Kelly (close to BB) hinted at OL moves for the #Patriots on the Pre-Draft show. Talked about how some of these OL they have on the team may not fit Scarnecchia's fancy and that he'd have his fingerprints on the draft.
Here's the OL depth chart as of now, as far as I can figure:

C: Stork, Andrews, (Cooper, Kline, Mason)
G: Cooper, Kline, Thuney, Mason, Jackson, Karras, Barker, (Stork)
T: Solder, Vollmer, Cannon, Waddle, (Thuney), Fleming, Milton, (Stork)

Who makes it, who doesn't? Are any of these guys any good? To me, Thuney is the key guy in the draft - Jones will play, Brissett (hopefully) won't, and the other guys are essentially all flyers.
 
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E5 Yaz

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I think Brian Kelly's put his finger on it in that tweet. Dante didn't come back into this without having a huge say into the makeup of the line going into the season. So, you're right; anyone outside of the starting tackles (if healthy) is at risk
 

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Dante's Purgatorio seems more appropriate. It feels like we're stuck in the same familiar place - good pass blocking tackles, question marks inside and at swing tackle, not clear we can run against any decent run defense,
 

BigSoxFan

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Dante's Purgatorio seems more appropriate. It feels like we're stuck in the same familiar place - good pass blocking tackles, question marks inside and at swing tackle, not clear we can run against any decent run defense,
As long as they get the pass blocking down, I'm ok with that.
 

Shelterdog

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The selection of Thuney is really interesting - he's kind of a tweener in that he's tall for a guard at 6'5" but has really short arms at 32 1/4" (4th percentile for an OT). He's played both guard and tackle. If they see him as an interior guy, he's the highest-drafted interior guy since Mankins. Generally speaking, if you draft a G in the third round, you expect him to at least compete for a starting gig - especially when none of the other options inside is a proven player.
When asked where Thuney would play BB spoke at length about how Light was a LT despite being a little small and short-armed; he also talked about Mankins as a smaller player who could have played LT. I think they're in love with Thuney and think he has a legitimate shot at tackle (at least as a backup).

They've been going with a bunch of particularly big players the last few years (the Cannon and Flemming experiments at RG, Cannon and Flemming as tackles, Tre Jackson at 325+, even Stork is pretty big for a center) as opposed to the classic smaller, more athletic 300 pound or so Dante guys. I've got to think Jackson, Flemming and Cannon are all in big trouble. I expect your starters by November next year are Solder-Thuney-Stork-Mason-Vollmer (maybe Thuney and Mason flip-flop).
 

Toe Nash

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Dante's Purgatorio seems more appropriate. It feels like we're stuck in the same familiar place - good pass blocking tackles, question marks inside and at swing tackle, not clear we can run against any decent run defense,
How can you say this in May?

They are getting Solder back and have added a guard who was drafted #7 overall and is 26 years old. They have a lot of questions, but a bunch of guys to choose from and a full offseason of one of the best position coaches of all time to coach them up. Mason is especially poised to take a step forward IMO.

They could always struggle or get injured but that could be said of most position groups (for example, WR) and there is plenty of reason for optimism.
 

Auger34

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When asked where Thuney would play BB spoke at length about how Light was a LT despite being a little small and short-armed; he also talked about Mankins as a smaller player who could have played LT. I think they're in love with Thuney and think he has a legitimate shot at tackle (at least as a backup).

They've been going with a bunch of particularly big players the last few years (the Cannon and Flemming experiments at RG, Cannon and Flemming as tackles, Tre Jackson at 325+, even Stork is pretty big for a center) as opposed to the classic smaller, more athletic 300 pound or so Dante guys. I've got to think Jackson, Flemming and Cannon are all in big trouble. I expect your starters by November next year are Solder-Thuney-Stork-Mason-Vollmer (maybe Thuney and Mason flip-flop).
Maybe Fleming but aren't Cannon and Jackson hand picked Dante guys? I know that Dante and Rick Trickett, the FSU OL coach, are very friendly and have similar ideas on o-line play. Also, I am pretty positive that Dante ran Jackson's pre-draft work out and vouched for him to BB.

And I thought Scar was the one that loved Cannon and recommended BB give him the oft-maligned extension he has currently?
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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How can you say this in May?

They are getting Solder back and have added a guard who was drafted #7 overall and is 26 years old. They have a lot of questions, but a bunch of guys to choose from and a full offseason of one of the best position coaches of all time to coach them up. Mason is especially poised to take a step forward IMO.

They could always struggle or get injured but that could be said of most position groups (for example, WR) and there is plenty of reason for optimism.
Well, yeah. That's purgatory for you. It kind of sucks in a familiar sort of way but it's not actually that bad and it could turn out really well eventually.
 

Super Nomario

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Cooper the #1 guard on the depth chart?
I haven't any idea, honestly. Wouldn't be surprised if he is, wouldn't be shocked if he's cut. Pretty much everyone on the depth chart is like that. Of all the interior OL on the team, Thuney is the only one who's a roster lock, and he might be a T.

When asked where Thuney would play BB spoke at length about how Light was a LT despite being a little small and short-armed; he also talked about Mankins as a smaller player who could have played LT. I think they're in love with Thuney and think he has a legitimate shot at tackle (at least as a backup).
Thanks. I hadn't seen that article, but I looked it up: http://nesn.com/2016/04/bill-belichick-patriots-not-ruling-out-joe-thuney-playing-offensive-tackle/

MockDraftable has Bryan Stork with 32 1/4" arms, too, and he played some RT last year. Joe Thomas has 32 1/2" arms and obviously that's worked out for him. It makes sense that they will try it; the odds of it working are less clear, certainly.

They've been going with a bunch of particularly big players the last few years (the Cannon and Flemming experiments at RG, Cannon and Flemming as tackles, Tre Jackson at 325+, even Stork is pretty big for a center) as opposed to the classic smaller, more athletic 300 pound or so Dante guys. I've got to think Jackson, Flemming and Cannon are all in big trouble. I expect your starters by November next year are Solder-Thuney-Stork-Mason-Vollmer (maybe Thuney and Mason flip-flop).
Cannon and Fleming definitely, as Fleming has already been cut and cutting Cannon is a chance to save decent money. Jackson, I have no idea - he's a little bigger than they've generally had at G, but he's also a FSU / Trickett guy and Trickett and Scarnecchia are buddies. I don't know how to parse their moves this offseason, other than it means they want to get better. Did they pick up Cooper (a smaller guy, like Mason) because they view him as an upgrade to Mason, a G to pair with Mason to have two guys like that, an option so they can move someone to C and still have a G like that, a failsafe in case Mason's pass blocking doesn't improve, a backup, or a flyer that they expect to cut?

I also think back to two years ago when they traded Mankins with no real plan to replace him and just kinda let things sort themselves out. They could be doing that. It seems risky given they're probably starting Garoppolo and facing a pretty tough early slate.
 
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Harry Hooper

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I understand why people are down on Cannon, but maybe his foot injury last year was worse than believed and he really shouldn't have been playing? The internal evaluation of Cannon may be quite different from what it looks like from the outside.
 

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To my untrained eyes Cannon did a really nice job in 2013 at RT but I've never seen him do a good job at any other postion and he was bad even at RT last year. I think the injury may be an issue.

The idea that Scar doesn't have his guys when we know he was involved in drafting them and working them out is a little strange. The only things that I could think of to reconcile the two are (1) he was helping Googe picks the kind of guys Googe would like (bigger bodied guy) instead of the players he would have picked for his own line, or (2) there were players who Scar would have benched or used differently.
 

Shelterdog

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So according to the twitters Scar sees Thuney as an interior player who can play tackle in a pinch (edit, there's a video of this and he says Thuney is an interior player who could play tackle if "disaster strikes").

Even if they see this as a bad draft it's hard for me to believe they use a third on an interior linemen who they don't think be an average or better starter fairly quickly. When you throw in a second draft pick and cooper it strongly suggests that they would like to add one or more starters on the interior and wouldn't mind changing a number of the backups as well. (I'm sure health concerns for Stork factor in somewhere as well). Jackson, Andrews and Kline appear to be in particularly perilous places but I wonder if there's not another player who Scar just doesn't want to coach.
(Edit: Scar is in love with Karras's work ethic and thinks he can play center and guard, thinks he's physical and smart and always in the right position: based on the comments I think there's a chance Karras displaces Kline or Andrews).

On the positive side the fact that they didn't add a tackle suggests to me that they think highly of where Waddle or Flemming are as players at this point.
 
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ColonelMustard

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So according to the twitters Scar sees Thuney as an interior player who can play tackle in a pinch.

On the positive side the fact that they didn't add a tackle suggests to me that they think highly of where Waddle or Flemming are as players at this point.
Or it might be the case that there is a dearth of talent and there are no other options. The Tackle position group is a weakness on this team. The starting options of Vollmer and Soldier have taken a step back from the former top talent they were in 2013. The entire group of Solder, Vollmer, Cannon and Waddle are coming back from injuries - some of them significant Fleming is not athletic enough to be anything more than a temporary replacement.

The interior line we might be ok if something in the pu pu platter sticks however the Tackle group is not a strength it once was and by not drafting for need we are in a weaker position in case of injury.

I hope we sign a good back-up option in the fall when cap casualties happen during training camp.
 

Super Nomario

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So according to the twitters Scar sees Thuney as an interior player who can play tackle in a pinch (edit, there's a video of this and he says Thuney is an interior player who could play tackle if "disaster strikes").

Even if they see this as a bad draft it's hard for me to believe they use a third on an interior linemen who they don't think be an average or better starter fairly quickly. When you throw in a second draft pick and cooper it strongly suggests that they would like to add one or more starters on the interior and wouldn't mind changing a number of the backups as well. (I'm sure health concerns for Stork factor in somewhere as well). Jackson, Andrews and Kline appear to be in particularly perilous places but I wonder if there's not another player who Scar just doesn't want to coach.
(Edit: Scar is in love with Karras's work ethic and thinks he can play center and guard, thinks he's physical and smart and always in the right position: based on the comments I think there's a chance Karras displaces Kline or Andrews).
Interesting that it's "inside player" and not "guard." Some teams apparently did / do view Thuney as a center. If Scar thinks Karras can play center, too, maybe that's a sign that they're looking to upgrade C just as much as or more than G.

On the positive side the fact that they didn't add a tackle suggests to me that they think highly of where Waddle or Flemming are as players at this point.
I'm not sure. The rep of this draft was that it was top-heavy at tackle. I guess that's usually true because tackle tends to be a "premium" position and all the good ones are usually gone early in the second round at the latest (really, Thuney might have been both the best interior and the best tackle prospect at the point they took him).

Given the shallow pool at tackle (and no first-round pick), it made sense to focus on the interior. After all, Brady might be the best QB in the league at moving in the pocket. If the interior guys can keep a clean pocket, Brady can step up and make it easier for the tackles to push the edge rushers wide. Between Brady's movement and the quick passing attack, the job description for Patriots tackles isn't overly arduous (though they do get less help from TE / RB than most teams).
 

Shelterdog

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Interesting that it's "inside player" and not "guard." Some teams apparently did / do view Thuney as a center. If Scar thinks Karras can play center, too, maybe that's a sign that they're looking to upgrade C just as much as or more than G.


I'm not sure. The rep of this draft was that it was top-heavy at tackle. I guess that's usually true because tackle tends to be a "premium" position and all the good ones are usually gone early in the second round at the latest (really, Thuney might have been both the best interior and the best tackle prospect at the point they took him).

Given the shallow pool at tackle (and no first-round pick), it made sense to focus on the interior. After all, Brady might be the best QB in the league at moving in the pocket. If the interior guys can keep a clean pocket, Brady can step up and make it easier for the tackles to push the edge rushers wide. Between Brady's movement and the quick passing attack, the job description for Patriots tackles isn't overly arduous (though they do get less help from TE / RB than most teams).
Even assuming they still like Stork you might want to have 4 good players for three spots given Stork's injury history, so you start the season with (for example) Cooper-Stork-Thuney but are willing to go Cooper-Thuney-Mason/Jackson if Stork goes down. Or perhaps they want a smarter player at center (I've only heard good things about Stork in this regard but whoever was making the protection calls against Denver wasn't doing a bang-up job).

I would have throught they'd have done more at tackle if they saw it as a major problem (if not in the draft in free agency) but it's certainly possible that they just couldn't find anyone better than what they had.