R2#31/#60: CB Cyrus Jones, a Patriot

SeoulSoxFan

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Cyrus Jones is a projected slot corner who also excels as a return ace. Some quick profiles:

CBS Sports:
Jones started his career on offense as a true freshman and caught four passes for 51 yards, playing mostly special teams. Jones moved to defense as a sophomore in 2013 (five starts) and was part of the cornerback rotation, recording 25 tackles, seven passes defended and two interceptions.
He started all 14 games as a junior in 2014 and led the Tide in passes defended (16) and interceptions (three), adding a career-best 46 tackles. Jones again started every game in 2015 as the team's primary punt returner (NCAA-best 42 punt returns in 2015) and starting corner, finishing with 37 tackles, nine passes defended and two interceptions.
From NESN & our friend Doug Kyed:
Strengths: Jones has a fantastic combination of speed and agility, with a 4.4-second 40-yard dash and sub 6.8-second three-cone drill. He’s adept in both man and zone coverage, according to Pro Football Focus, which also notes Jones’ strong run defense. He’s also one of the best punt returners in the draft, averaging 12.6 yards per return with four touchdowns last season.

Weaknesses: Jones definitely is on the small side for an NFL cornerback, which might force teams to slide him inside to the slot, where he doesn’t have much experience. He gave up 39 catches on 68 targets for 497 yards with six touchdowns and two interceptions in 2015. He allowed 10 touchdowns in his final two years in college, and that’s on the high side for a top cornerback prospect. He “plays very well between lapses,” however, according to Pro Football Focus.

Patriots fit: Jones’ combination of speed and agility has to be attractive to the Patriots. His run defense also should make him a fit. New England values tackling ability and run defense at cornerback more than most teams.

PatsPulpit:
Strengths: Despite only playing defense since his 2013 sophomore season, Jones brings a lot of experience to table. Not only did he play his entire college career in football's best conference, the SEC, he was also used in various ways as a defensive back: Jones has played in man and zone concepts, lined up on both the left and the right defensive side (and in the slot at times), and played close to the line of scrimmage as well as off it.

Jones also possesses good physical skills. He uses his arms and his upper body strength well to re-route opposing receivers, while having good footwork and hip flexibility to stick with them even after double-moves. Furthermore, he is a physical press corner and does also not shy away from bringing this physicality to run defense.

During his college career, Jones intercepted seven passes and displayed good ball skills in the process of doing so (a remnant of his wide receiver days). In general he is dangerous with the ball in his hands, whether it is as a defensive back or as a punt returner.

Weaknesses: The biggest knock on Jones is his size. At 5'10 he could struggle at times against taller receivers, especially on jump balls. To make up for his lack of size and his average speed, he plays physical but needs to be aware of the situation when doing this on the next level to not risk any unnecessary penalties.

Another problem for Jones is turning his head around and locating the ball while in the air. This, paired with to-be-improved hip movement on comebacks, in- and out-routes, prevents him from potentially undercutting more throwing lanes. While he displayed good awareness of his assignments in man coverage, he needs to improve in zone to not risk communication breakdowns throughout the secondary.

Furthermore, Jones has to work on his decision making when returning punts: he returned an SEC-high 42 punts in 2015 and some of them should probably have been called as fair catches.
 
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Super Nomario

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I like him. I had him as my #5 press corner. He's short and his arms are only average length but he jams the crap out of guys at the line of scrimmage. 40 was fine, great in the three-cone (of course). Guessing he's slot and return guy as a rookie and they size him up for a bigger role in 2017 (when both Butler and Ryan are FAs).

I like him better than Artie Burns or Xavien Howard or Sean Davis, who all went in front of him.
 

Ferm Sheller

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Gotta figure the Pats' uniform guy is gonna try to talk him into taking either #94 or #95.
 
Domestic violence in 15, listed at 5'9 but closer to 5'10, good 3-cone.
I wouldn't worry about the domestic violence charge.

Cyrus Jones Sr. told AL.com that his son said to him early in their conversation, "Dad, here I am thinking I'm defusing the situation and trying to be the good guy with everything, and I actually called the police so that they could come and resolve it in a peaceful way, and they basically punished me for doing that."

Both charges were dropped days later, with police explaining in a statement that Jones Jr. "attempted to deescalate the situation by contacting the Tuscaloosa Police Department."

The charges were dropped "because he shouldn't have been arrested," Jones Jr.'s high school coach in Maryland, Biff Poggi, told AL.com.

"I wasn't there," Poggi said. "But from what I hear from Cyrus and his family, and from reading multiple reports about it, the charges were dropped because he shouldn't have been arrested, and I think the Tuscaloosa Police statement they issued, they wouldn't have issued a statement and dropped the charges if there was something [there]."
 

Ferm Sheller

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As one of the few DMB fans on the board, I certainly wasn't disappointed by this pick.
Geez, I didn't get Otto's reference at all until I saw your post and googled dmb and those dates. But then again, I wake up every morning and curse the sperm cell that won the race in Dave Mathews' mother's uterus 40 weeks before he was born.
 

axx

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He is small. I kind of like the speed though. Watch this punt return TD:

 

DourDoerr

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He is small. I kind of like the speed though. Watch this punt return TD:

Thanks for that axx. Wow, he is fast - can never have enough speed. Also like the fearlessness as that was a crappy short punt and he still went for it. He'll have to adjust as the coverage guys are faster and will be on him sooner in the NFL, but courage can't be taught.
 

Nator

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Is anyone else bothered by the "doesn't turn his head around when the ball is in the air" part of the 2nd scouting report SSF posted?

Something that most of us see as a bug, almost seems to be a feature amongst the defensive cognoscenti in Foxboro.
 

Toe Nash

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Is anyone else bothered by the "doesn't turn his head around when the ball is in the air" part of the 2nd scouting report SSF posted?

Something that most of us see as a bug, almost seems to be a feature amongst the defensive cognoscenti in Foxboro.
It's frustrating to watch a defensive back run into a receiver that slows down for the ball and get a flag, but that's because it's really hard to run when you're looking the other way and trying to track a ball. Guys who can keep their head turned and find the ball every time without losing their man are pretty rare. I'm sure in a perfect world Patricia and BB would have their players turn and find every pass, but we don't live there.

That said, Malcolm Butler does this very well.
 

Nator

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It's frustrating to watch a defensive back run into a receiver that slows down for the ball and get a flag, but that's because it's really hard to run when you're looking the other way and trying to track a ball. Guys who can keep their head turned and find the ball every time without losing their man are pretty rare. I'm sure in a perfect world Patricia and BB would have their players turn and find every pass, but we don't live there.

That said, Malcolm Butler does this very well.
I guess now that the face guarding file has changed, that makes sense.

Of course, when I am in an alcohol fueled meatball fan state at home, it's pretty simple for me to scream at a db for turning his head when I am on my couch, and can see the play happening from a TV camera, as opposed to chasing an HGH fueled speedfreak.

You are correct, Butler is really good at turning his head when the ball gets there.

Overall, I like this pick. I just saw that passage and it reminded me of one of my Sunday afternoon refrains for the last decade plus.
 

BigSoxFan

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I'm getting an Ellis Hobbs vibe out of this pick. I think he'll be a solid corner who will provide some big plays in the return game. Will probably get overmatched by big WRs from time to time.
 
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My hope is that the organization thinks that Jones could be like Tyrann Mathieu. Mathieu went 69 -with his question marks- so Cyrus at 60 could be a honey badger lite. Shows flashes of Mathieu like playmaking ability but the tape is not nearly as impressive
 

mauf

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My hope is that the organization thinks that Jones could be like Tyrann Mathieu. Mathieu went 69 -with his question marks- so Cyrus at 60 could be a honey badger lite. Shows flashes of Mathieu like playmaking ability but the tape is not nearly as impressive
I'm a Bama fan, and I like this pick, but Mathieu was on a whole other plane talent-wise in college; he was (and is) a tough motherfucker too, hence the nickname.

The intriguing thing here is that Jones was a late convert to the position, which makes me feel a little better about the potential for the Pats' coaching staff to refine his technique.
 

Eck'sSneakyCheese

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I'm a Bama fan, and I like this pick, but Mathieu was on a whole other plane talent-wise in college; he was (and is) a tough motherfucker too, hence the nickname.

The intriguing thing here is that Jones was a late convert to the position, which makes me feel a little better about the potential for the Pats' coaching staff to refine his technique.
I'm not a big fan of this pick so I might be a little jaded but when have the Patriots coaching staff ever been able to "coach up" a defensive back? If he has a tendency to play the receiver instead of the ball, I see nothing but PI flags in this kids future. I hope he's a hell of a kick returner.
 

Shelterdog

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I'm not a big fan of this pick so I might be a little jaded but when have the Patriots coaching staff ever been able to "coach up" a defensive back? If he has a tendency to play the receiver instead of the ball, I see nothing but PI flags in this kids future. I hope he's a hell of a kick returner.
Logan Ryan? Asante? Hobbs?
 
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I'm not a big fan of this pick so I might be a little jaded but when have the Patriots coaching staff ever been able to "coach up" a defensive back? If he has a tendency to play the receiver instead of the ball, I see nothing but PI flags in this kids future. I hope he's a hell of a kick returner.
Asante Samuel. Malcolm Butler.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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If the Patriots had nothing to do with coaching up everybody named already plus guys like Randall Gay and even short-timers like Earthwind Moreland and Sterling Moore, then Belichick isn't getting nearly enough credit as a GM to find these guys fully formed in the deep crevices of the draft and free agency.
 

Hendu for Kutch

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You really think he's a product of the coaching staff and not just a naturally gifted corner?
To even type a comment like this makes it pretty clear you're working backwards from a preconceived conclusion. How can they possibly receive credit for coaching a player up if turning an undrafted small-college no-name into a Pro Bowler doesn't qualify?
 

Eck'sSneakyCheese

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Wow. So, Malcolm Butler is a product of the Pro Bowl factory that is the Pats secondary coaching staff? That's idiotic. I'll be back with a list of failed defensive backs drafted and picked up in free agency. It's going to take some time though, because there's a shit-ton of them.
 

southshoresoxfan

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Wow. So, Malcolm Butler is a product of the Pro Bowl factory that is the Pats secondary coaching staff? That's idiotic. I'll be back with a list of failed defensive backs drafted and picked up in free agency. It's going to take some time though, because there's a shit-ton of them.
Every team in the NFL has a shit ton of them. Same w WR. Find me a team that hits a high rate on any position that far away from the ball.

This is like arguing if water or oxygen is more important to human survival. A coaching staff can only do so much for a player. There has to be some natural ability and or will to work hard.
 

( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)

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Wow. So, Malcolm Butler is a product of the Pro Bowl factory that is the Pats secondary coaching staff? That's idiotic. I'll be back with a list of failed defensive backs drafted and picked up in free agency. It's going to take some time though, because there's a shit-ton of them.
Yea you do realize you're getting a data point of one, right?
Others have said it already but maybe just maybe taking athletic kids from college and turning them into good pros is very hard. I don't have the data but I'd be shocked if the pats are any worse then middle of the pack here regarding the number of corners that wash out.

This is like people complaining that BB sucks at the draft. That's a fine hypothesis, but if he sucks that much then who would you swap him out for? No one ever had an answer to that question
 

Super Nomario

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I'm not a big fan of this pick so I might be a little jaded but when have the Patriots coaching staff ever been able to "coach up" a defensive back? If he has a tendency to play the receiver instead of the ball, I see nothing but PI flags in this kids future. I hope he's a hell of a kick returner.
Why don't you like the pick? I got to Jones late in the process but I was impressed with his tape (I had him as my #5 press corner, and all the top four were already gone). Did you not like picking a cornerback in general there, or was there another guy you liked better?
 

lexrageorge

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So credit for a UDFA that succeeds goes entirely to the player. While blame for flameouts goes entirely to the coaching staff. Sounds like a Borges comment.
 

Hendu for Kutch

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Wow. So, Malcolm Butler is a product of the Pro Bowl factory that is the Pats secondary coaching staff? That's idiotic. I'll be back with a list of failed defensive backs drafted and picked up in free agency. It's going to take some time though, because there's a shit-ton of them.
When everyone is responding to you in the same way, take a deep breath and examine what you're saying. You're straw manning the shit out of this. Literally nobody said what you're saying here.

You asked when the Patriots had ever coached up a DB. You were given two obvious examples of Pro Bowl CBs who had no pedigree to speak of, Asante Samuel and Malcolm Butler.

Then you turned around and said they don't count because they're "naturally" good CBs. Which is odd, since I don't know how they can possibly receive credit for coaching someone up if you just assume those that exceeded expectations were just secretly good to begin with. It's a complete Catch-22.
 

Shelterdog

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Besides Asante Gay Edelman Brown Moreland Butler Ryan and the decomposing corpse of Browner what have the Romans ever done for us?
 

NortheasternPJ

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Butler didn't look so gifted when he got completely jammed in practice before the Super Bowl and let the practice squad WR score a TD with him open by 8 yards.
 

Hoodie Sleeves

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You asked when the Patriots had ever coached up a DB. You were given two obvious examples of Pro Bowl CBs who had no pedigree to speak of, Asante Samuel and Malcolm Butler..
The whole thing is kind of a silly discussion - but to my mind, Butler is a better example of finding undervalued assets. His ascent from nothing to one of the best corners in football was way too quick for it to be 'coaching up' (or mostly coaching up) - he's an example of teams having very little information, and a lot of their information being wrong. His reputation was that he was pretty good - then he ran a 4.6 40 at his pro-day, and it was pretty much decided he was too slow for the NFL. He had previously run a 4.4, and ran a 4.4 at his tryouts for the Patriots. He's an example of bad scouting data.

Asante is a decent example - he came in as basically a nickel/dime back and was a superstar a couple years later - he shows measured increases in skill and playing time - so there's an argument he was 'coached up'.

The problem is that for every Asante Samuel or Ellis Hobbs, there's a guy like Devin McCourty (or Wilhite, etc) who comes in looking good as a rookie, and then looks totally unsuited for the position his second or 3rd year. Its not surprising to see cornerbacks flame out - its a tough position to judge - its just strange how many of the Patriots look good their first year, and bad the second. It may just be a case of them getting less help the second year - we just can't tell because the NFL seems to be allergic to showing secondary play.
 

Hendu for Kutch

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The whole thing is kind of a silly discussion - but to my mind, Butler is a better example of finding undervalued assets. His ascent from nothing to one of the best corners in football was way too quick for it to be 'coaching up' (or mostly coaching up) - he's an example of teams having very little information, and a lot of their information being wrong. His reputation was that he was pretty good - then he ran a 4.6 40 at his pro-day, and it was pretty much decided he was too slow for the NFL. He had previously run a 4.4, and ran a 4.4 at his tryouts for the Patriots. He's an example of bad scouting data.
Eh, I've got to disagree with this. If he was flashing a #1 CB skill set in college, someone would have noticed and overlooked one bad 40 time. It's when you're showing a fringe prospect skill set that you get dismissed quickly, as he did. Obviously he's a very talented guy, but that didn't show up at anywhere near the level he's shown since he got to New England. The Patriots clearly unlocked something that wasn't being utilized, because with Malcolm's current skill set, he should have been a Division II god instead of "pretty good".

The problem is that for every Asante Samuel or Ellis Hobbs, there's a guy like Devin McCourty (or Wilhite, etc) who comes in looking good as a rookie, and then looks totally unsuited for the position his second or 3rd year. Its not surprising to see cornerbacks flame out - its a tough position to judge - its just strange how many of the Patriots look good their first year, and bad the second. It may just be a case of them getting less help the second year - we just can't tell because the NFL seems to be allergic to showing secondary play.
It's certainly fair to look at the entire history. They can't always "unlock" the player's potential like they did with Butler. Totally fair, they've had some DB misses. But that's not what he asked about. He asked for an example and then instead of backing off a bit doubled down by hand-waving Butler away.
 

Eck'sSneakyCheese

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Why don't you like the pick? I got to Jones late in the process but I was impressed with his tape (I had him as my #5 press corner, and all the top four were already gone). Did you not like picking a cornerback in general there, or was there another guy you liked better?
I wasn't impressed with his tape. Like I mentioned before, he's too handsy and I see him getting a ton of holding, illegal contact and PI calls with the way he plays the receiver. His anticipation and his ability to read routes is not great. He's going to get obliterated by anyone that has a decent double move or someone that runs crisp routes. He looks like a decent returner but even that aspect of his game I found to be underwhelming. He's not explosive with the ball. He lets his blocks setup which is great but the special teamers in the NFL operate at a completely different speed. I'm going to pull for the guy but my expectations are low.

Morgan Burns out of K-State was my hope for a player like Jones. He has better speed and better ball skills. A likely elite KR with the ability to provide depth at corner. I think I said as much in the draft contest.

I don't think the coaching staff has shown the ability to correct player issues with pass coverage. I didn't think that narrative was bold or over the top, in fact, I thought it was something that was commonly made fun off. Situations have been different, personnel has changed so it's difficult to make a solid case for or against the coaching staff. However my opinion is not baseless even though it differs from some others here.

Asante Samuel had extremely impressive ball skills coming out of college. I believe he still holds the record for passes defended at UCF. Was he a 4th round talent made great by the Pats or was he elite talent that the Pats happened to pick in the 4th round? I completely see how this becomes a chicken/egg situation. Same can be said for Butler. A UDFA made an All-Pro or an amazing talent overlooked by the masses? If the coaching staff can turn and undrafted JAG like Butler into what he is now, why have there been so many failures? That's my question. If the flame out rate is equal to or lower than the mean then maybe I'm off base.