Arsenal 2015-2016: The One That Got Away

SoxFanInCali

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Here's a question. Do you guys think missing Europe for a season would give you a better shot in the league, and if so, would that increased chance be worth the monetary loss and more difficult player recruitment that results from it?
 

sachmoney

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Whenever Arsene wants to hire me as a scout you guys need to give him my contact info.

On the current topic, it is easy to lament another blown chance at the league especially with wins over the probable winners but this is everyone's lament this season. We all feel like an opportunity was blown with Leicester winning but that team ha grinder out result after result. It's a shocking name to see up there but they've had title winning form with only 3 losses in the league. It's sort of unfair of all teams to feel like an opportunity was missed because quite frankly Leicester have not left much of an opening. Of all the teams, at least Arsenal can say they did their part to open the door with two results against Leicester.

As is often the case, injury dictates so much of what happens in the table. Your overall squad depth wasn't there to compete on all fronts and relying on some of the usual suspects to not get injured did you in. I think Wenger is a fantastic manager and gets too much grief for things that are largely out of his control but his inability to understand the depth that is needed to dine with the very best is in my opinion his biggest flaw. Whether through youth promotion or depth signings, you just can't start a season with the lack of depth Arsenal keeps trying to begin with and expect to compete on all fronts. Aside from striker, I don't think it's a question of breaking the bank on stars, more a need to have real depth with competent PL footballers
1. Regarding the everyone's lament comment, I'm not lamenting the wins. I view the wins as a positive. It's more that those wins haven't really done anything for Arsenal that's the problem. I think that all of the clubs that finished in Champions League places could/should be disappointed with this year's league campaign.

2. Trying my best not to make it about Wenger as it always brings down the level of discourse.

What this season really demonstrated was the definitive failure of Wenger's plan to build a team around the British core. I don't think we lost the league because we had no depth. We lost the league because our depth was Wilshere (by far the best of these players but injured all year), Ramsey (completely unable/unwilling to be the midfield engine for a possession-based team), Ox (athletic freak and a great dude with a football IQ near zero), and Theo (speedy finisher who couldn't finish and doesn't offer much else).
None of these players have developed. You should put trust in young players, but they've got to pay it back with development. His unrelenting backing of these players is admirable, but it seems like ruthlessness yields results.
Here's a question. Do you guys think missing Europe for a season would give you a better shot in the league, and if so, would that increased chance be worth the monetary loss and more difficult player recruitment that results from it?
I don't think that Arsenal has the depth to get through a league season, even without Europe. So no, I don't think that it would give Arsenal a better shot. Anyway, I'd imagine that players would be lost in combination with difficult player recruitment. I also feel like Arsenal is already looked down on amongst the "big" clubs by many players, who feel Arsenal isn't serious about winning.
 

Schnerres

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Here's a question. Do you guys think missing Europe for a season would give you a better shot in the league, and if so, would that increased chance be worth the monetary loss and more difficult player recruitment that results from it?
I don´t know if you mean missing the CL or missing even the Europa League, which is almost impossible. They have a 7-point lead over West Ham with 6 matches to play and Arsenal has 4 matches at home and only 2 away, so they will get some points.
To answer your question: Of course this would be helpful for a team. You can see what Leicester is achieving by always playing their best team and other teams rotating/getting injured. Of course another part of the fixtures are the english cups, so it makes a difference if you drop out early or have games replayed due to draws (absolutely dumb IMO, because England already plays so many games), so you can basically play 10 more or less matches if you´re out early or advance far. Then add the national games for guys like Özil, Sanchez, who are the ones to make a difference and there you go. Playing 10 CL matches and 10 cup matches or not is a huge part in players performance in the second part of the season.
 
I don´t know if you mean missing the CL or missing even the Europa League, which is almost impossible. They have a 7-point lead over West Ham with 6 matches to play and Arsenal has 4 matches at home and only 2 away, so they will get some points.
I can't imagine Arsenal isn't going to get overtaken by Man City (currently 2 points behind), Man Utd (6 points) and West Ham (7 points), but they could easily be passed by two of those three and fall to fifth if they continue to drop points at home and/or against bottom-half teams. I certainly expect Arsenal will drop enough points before the end of the season to open the door for all three of those clubs; I just don't think all of them are capable of playing error-free ball.

To address one aspect of SFIC's original question, I'm not convinced that a single season without Champions League football has a significant effect on player recruitment in the short term. Arsenal would still be one of the top destinations for potential transfer targets; unless you're a club in a top league which can guarantee Champions League football every season (a list which isn't much larger than Real, Barca, Bayern and maybe PSG and Juve), you're not going to be in the running to buy no-brainer superstars with no flaws and unlimited talent, and below that top tier, everyone is buyable if you have the resources. And Arsenal clearly has the resources, even if it's less clear that the club is willing to use them.
 
I don't *think* Man Utd will accumulate 5 more points than Arsenal over the final 5 matches and consign Arsenal to 5th place...but I certainly wouldn't bet my life on it. And with Man City playing as they're playing, Arsenal will probably have to win at the Etihad to any chance at 3rd. So, another 4th place trophy, but with no St. Totteringham's Day to celebrate. Outstanding!
 

fletcherpost

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Arsenal have to beat Palace. Why did they not beat them. Why can't they grind out a result, with all the talent they have. Is it going to take a 5th place spot for Wenger to step down?
 

Schnerres

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Remember some weeks ago (1st of march, 28th match), when Leicester drew 2-2 at home against West Brom? Everybody thought that they´re in trouble now.
Next day, Arsenal lost against Swansea, Tottenham lost at West Ham.
Let´s wait if Tottenham can win at Stoke or if this story repeats (not saying everybody losing ground like last time, but if Tottenham draws, they and Arsenal will be immensely disappointed by not gaining something after Leicester dropped points at home).
 

Infield Infidel

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I think people are too hung up on the names of teams. It's not 2008 anymore, the league is completely different now. There are few if any easy wins. Palace has a payroll that would be top 5 in Germany, Spain, or Italy, but it's 15th in EPL. Sure Arsenal is "one of the ten biggest clubs in the world" but 10 of the largest 20 payrolls are in their league. 17 of the 30 largest payrolls are in their league. The non-Big 4 clubs in EPL are all getting more money, getting better players, and improving. Unfashionable Stoke, who are 9th on the table and 9th in payroll, would probably finish 4th in Spain, 3rd in Germany, or 2nd in Italy/France. If Stoke played in those leagues they'd be in the Champions League. Seriously, Stoke. And the money skyrockets next season. Half the league will have 100 million pound payrolls in a couple seasons. This league is brutally competitive.

At the same time, the big four clubs are pinched from above because few players that can get to Real Madrid, Bayern, or Barca will choose to go to a big 4 club (at least until Pep goes to City). Real/Bayern/Barca have more money and acres of pressure-free noncompetitive domestic matches in which to rest their players, so the players know they'll get paid, get playing time in easy matches, and requisite rest (and for Barca/Real, live in Spain). Easy matches usually means fewer injuries. La Liga will finally have a collective TV deal next season and the other teams will have considerably more money, so they will be better able to compete with non-Big4 EPL clubs for players, and perhaps Real and Barca won't have 20ish easy matches. But La Liga still won't be in EPL's league financially.

So since they aren't getting the Neymars, Messis or Ronaldos, and the lower teams have more money than before, the gap in quality in EPL has shrunk. What they can do is what teddy said, use their financial advantage to have as deep a squad as possible. And pray that the FA dumps FA Cup replays and EPL dumps the League Cup entirely to lessen the strain on the squads.
 
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Well said - I agree with all of that. (Although it does make Leicester's rise seem that much more improbable.)

I wonder where Arsenal would finish in a hypothetical 20-team European super league season. Looking strictly at current UEFA club coefficients, that league would contain (with coefficient rankings in parentheses):
  • Spain: Real Madrid (1), Barcelona (3), Atletico Madrid (4), Valencia (12), Sevilla (18)
  • Germany: Bayern Munich (2), Borussia Dortmund (8), Schalke (13), Bayer Leverkusen (17)
  • England: Chelsea (5), Arsenal (10), Man City (11), Man Utd (20)
  • Portugal: Benfica (6), Porto (15)
  • France: PSG (7)
  • Italy: Juventus (9), Napoli (16)
  • Russia: Zenit (14)
  • Switzerland: Basel (19)
By this criteria, Arsenal is right in mid-table. Feels about right. (By the way, if you limit this league to 4 clubs per country, you remove Sevilla and add Shakhtar Donetsk.)
 

sachmoney

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I think people are too hung up on the names of teams. It's not 2008 anymore, the league is completely different now. There are few if any easy wins. Palace has a payroll that would be top 5 in Germany, Spain, or Italy, but it's 15th in EPL. Sure Arsenal is "one of the ten biggest clubs in the world" but 10 of the largest 20 payrolls are in their league. 17 of the 30 largest payrolls are in their league. The non-Big 4 clubs in EPL are all getting more money, getting better players, and improving. Unfashionable Stoke, who are 9th on the table and 9th in payroll, would probably finish 4th in Spain, 3rd in Germany, or 2nd in Italy/France. If Stoke played in those leagues they'd be in the Champions League. Seriously, Stoke. And the money skyrockets next season. Half the league will have 100 million pound payrolls in a couple seasons. This league is brutally competitive.

At the same time, the big four clubs are pinched from above because few players that can get to Real Madrid, Bayern, or Barca will choose to go to a big 4 club (at least until Pep goes to City). Real/Bayern/Barca have more money and acres of pressure-free noncompetitive domestic matches in which to rest their players, so the players know they'll get paid, get playing time in easy matches, and requisite rest (and for Barca/Real, live in Spain). Easy matches usually means fewer injuries. La Liga will finally have a collective TV deal next season and the other teams will have considerably more money, so they will be better able to compete with non-Big4 EPL clubs for players, and perhaps Real and Barca won't have 20ish easy matches. But La Liga still won't be in EPL's league financially.

So since they aren't getting the Neymars, Messis or Ronaldos, and the lower teams have more money than before, the gap in quality in EPL has shrunk. What they can do is what teddy said, use their financial advantage to have as deep a squad as possible. And pray that the FA dumps FA Cup replays and EPL dumps the League Cup entirely to lessen the strain on the squads.
This is great analysis.
Well said - I agree with all of that. (Although it does make Leicester's rise seem that much more improbable.)

I wonder where Arsenal would finish in a hypothetical 20-team European super league season. Looking strictly at current UEFA club coefficients, that league would contain (with coefficient rankings in parentheses):
  • Spain: Real Madrid (1), Barcelona (3), Atletico Madrid (4), Valencia (12), Sevilla (18)
  • Germany: Bayern Munich (2), Borussia Dortmund (8), Schalke (13), Bayer Leverkusen (17)
  • England: Chelsea (5), Arsenal (10), Man City (11), Man Utd (20)
  • Portugal: Benfica (6), Porto (15)
  • France: PSG (7)
  • Italy: Juventus (9), Napoli (16)
  • Russia: Zenit (14)
  • Switzerland: Basel (19)
By this criteria, Arsenal is right in mid-table. Feels about right. (By the way, if you limit this league to 4 clubs per country, you remove Sevilla and add Shakhtar Donetsk.)
I think that's fair, but I think the gap from 10 to 20 is far smaller than the gap from 10 to 1...or even 10 to 3. Teams like Real, Barca, and Bayern are in another league. You go to that next tier of Atleti, Juve, PSG and the gaps between them and Arsenal is still greater than the gap between Arsenal and the 20th team.

With City having already drawn, this game against West Brom is a chance to pick up points and get the upper hand in securing the third place spot. That game against City looms large right now and might be the decider between finishing third and fourth. Every game is big. As it has been for a while, I guess, but for different reasons.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Alexis has been on fire the last six weeks. He has been so out of sorts this year - clearly gassed after the Cop America and struggling for form, then injured for so long, then struggling for form again when he came back. Its nice to see him back to his best. Lets hope we can keep him.
 

mikeford

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Alexis has been on fire the last six weeks. He has been so out of sorts this year - clearly gassed after the Cop America and struggling for form, then injured for so long, then struggling for form again when he came back. Its nice to see him back to his best. Lets hope we can keep him.
Feel like there is virtually no chance of keeping him or Ozil if they fall out of the Champions League and maybe even if they have to go play the playoff to get into the real Champions League.

Both these guys aren't gonna spend their whole primes futzing around at a club without ambition. Finishing strong and moving quickly and smartly in the summer is absolutely crucial if Arsenal wants to keep their 2 stars.
 

sachmoney

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Alexis has been on fire the last six weeks. He has been so out of sorts this year - clearly gassed after the Cop America and struggling for form, then injured for so long, then struggling for form again when he came back. Its nice to see him back to his best. Lets hope we can keep him.
Luckily, we have the Copa América Centenario for him to gassed from this year! And the Euro for Özil!

Looked the boys showed style tonight. Seemed like there were plenty of chances, Özil really should have had one. Happy to get out in front of City. I reckon Arsenal are going to need to pick up two more on them to prepare for the head to head.
 

fletcherpost

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Just watched the Wenger interview on Sky. He went on again about how Arsenal beat Leicester home and away...didn't say too much about losing at home to Swansea though, but said Leicester will have to adapt in the Champion's league. Didn't say too much about how he's ersed this years' chance at glory...but his charges did do the double over Leicester...no medals for that though gadgie.
 

fletcherpost

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I can hear about 500 gooners singing Arsenal we love you. You get louder crowds at fuckin Starks Park...I'm not kidding. Theo is coming on to change the game. Arsenal nick this one nil, Big Sam is sad and jowly in the post match.

EDIT: That might have been Sunderland fans. Hard to tell.

I'm a fuckin idiot, it's at Sunderland...why did i think it was an Arsenal home game?
 
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DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I wonder how Norwich and Newcastle fans are feeling being Gooners for the day? They must be thinking what the fuck is wrong with them?
 

miracleofmidre

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That last minute perfectly summed things up, in need of a goal and with the ball at his feet centrally and about 20 yards out with a chance at a shot, Welbeck somehow goes wide resulting in longer Arsenal possession but with the ball about 35 yards away and as no threat. This team has nothing tactically beyond what they have been taught (possession!), no ability to adjust, and - worst - no stones. Walcott running over a free ball with Mannone way out of his goal should be the last straw for him at the club, he displayed utter cowardice shying away from that encounter.

I am totally fed up, the manager is a stubborn man (Giroud for over 70 minutes today after that first half, really!?), a stagnant mind. The worst part is that ownership doesn't see anything wrong with the product, which means that Wenger is the only firewall against the descent of the club into true mediocrity. So there's not much to look forward to beyond the team remaining a threat for the top four or five and maybe a lesser cup.
 
As referenced previously, my son and I were in the away end at Sunderland today. Lovely stadium, nice atmosphere (both home and away fans), utterly forgettable match. Elneny was very impressive, and Cech did everything he was asked to do, but apart from that...yikes. What Wenger was thinking in starting the exact same lineup from Thursday night, when everyone knew a more rested Sunderland would come out with a lot of energy, I have no idea. Sanchez's body language was terrible, nobody fancied shooting EVER, and from the start of the second half we were singing for Danny Welbeck every time Giroud did something horrible (so in other words, constantly). And then when Welbeck's introduction made no difference, we started singing for Super Jack Wilshere. And then when that made no difference, we finally matched the team on the pitch and ran out of inspiration.

I still enjoyed the experience and would highly recommend the Stadium of Light as a place for visiting fans to attend - the park and ride facility was even free to use - but as for what we saw on the pitch, it's fair to say this club is going absolutely nowhere at the moment.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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The only real positive for me is that the Elneny-Ramsey midfield seems viable in these kinds of matches (it'll probably get exposed against better teams). For much of the year the team struggled because we couldn't control matches in midfield. Elneny has really helped and has shown that he can partner either Coq or Ramsey.

Other than that, meh. Wenger's tactics are stale and it's incredibly obvious that we lack a top goal scoring threat beyond Alexis. If two of your front four are going to be creators like Ozil and (I guess) Iwobi, then your other two better be very very good at putting it in the net.
 

soxfan121

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The worst part is that ownership doesn't see anything wrong with the product, which means that Wenger is the only firewall against the descent of the club into true mediocrity.
Maybe you shouldn't bury this in the middle of a paragraph. Or maybe put it in 18 point font.

When Wenger is gone you lot will realize - too late - that Stan Kroenke is perfectly happy with 12th place, turning a tiny profit, and not giving two fucks about the fans or the club.

The good people of St. Louis or Denver will be happy to tell you about how little Stan's Hairpiece cares about winning. All of the "fire Wenger" pleas are, IMO, begging for the complete ruination of your club. The current situation might be frustrating but my lord, it is about to get so much worse. Brace yourselves. Winter is coming.
 

mikeford

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Let it be ruined then. If it has to be burned down to get rid of Kroenke so be it.


With Leicester winning today we're officially eliminated from winning the title.

Next year don't step on someone's thread starting toes coming off a trophy win eh blueguitar?
 

JimBoSox9

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Let it be ruined then. If it has to be burned down to get rid of Kroenke so be it.


With Leicester winning today we're officially eliminated from winning the title.

Next year don't step on someone's thread starting toes coming off a trophy win eh blueguitar?
Don't even pretend you're not actually filled with happiness at each and every one of these sentences. So much to kvetch about! It's the salad days for mikeford.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Just watched the Wenger interview on Sky. He went on again about how Arsenal beat Leicester home and away...didn't say too much about losing at home to Swansea though, but said Leicester will have to adapt in the Champion's league. Didn't say too much about how he's ersed this years' chance at glory...but his charges did do the double over Leicester...no medals for that though gadgie.
The irony is that if anything is going to get him sacked, it might just be if the trophy goes to North London but not to him. I wonder how Arsenal fans will feel about that double if Spurs edge Leicester out of the title.

(Of course, Sanchez's goal against the run of play on ten men in the derby could end up being fairly significant in the end too.)
 

miracleofmidre

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Maybe you shouldn't bury this in the middle of a paragraph. Or maybe put it in 18 point font.

When Wenger is gone you lot will realize - too late - that Stan Kroenke is perfectly happy with 12th place, turning a tiny profit, and not giving two fucks about the fans or the club.

The good people of St. Louis or Denver will be happy to tell you about how little Stan's Hairpiece cares about winning. All of the "fire Wenger" pleas are, IMO, begging for the complete ruination of your club. The current situation might be frustrating but my lord, it is about to get so much worse. Brace yourselves. Winter is coming.
Kroenke is awful, that's the worst part. I believe Wenger's ambition far outstrips the owner's, we can all argue if his signings (or lack thereof) are a result of his stubbornness (perhaps), the purse strings being held tightly by others (possible, but less evidence for this), or his lack of creativity or courage. But nonetheless I still believe Wenger craves success, winning, how can one not think that he desires to win? What is unclear is whether he has the tactical agility to adjust to the game at this point, and whether he has the ruthlessness to move on from players who are not providing sufficient evidence during the actual games to justify his continued confidence in them. I likened him in an earlier post to late-stage Don Shula, a previously great coach who was still "succeeding" (by some measures) in his last days, but who had clearly been a much better coach in an earlier era.*

I don't believe Wenger should be sacked or that he should resign - I am not in the "Wenger Out" crew, not yet. I can't stomach the possibilities of what I alluded to above; in effect I am a coward too. I am afraid of what will happen when it all "burns down". My hope is that this season catalyzes bigger signings this summer and the release of certain players. I guess we will see.

*Pure coincidence that they are the two managers who led teams to unique undefeated seasons.
 
When Wenger is gone you lot will realize - too late - that Stan Kroenke is perfectly happy with 12th place, turning a tiny profit, and not giving two fucks about the fans or the club.

The good people of St. Louis or Denver will be happy to tell you about how little Stan's Hairpiece cares about winning. All of the "fire Wenger" pleas are, IMO, begging for the complete ruination of your club. The current situation might be frustrating but my lord, it is about to get so much worse. Brace yourselves. Winter is coming.
Pure rubbish.

1) The Premier League isn't the NFL or the NHL. You have to finish in the top four - could eventually be the top three, if England's UEFA coefficient slides far enough - to reach the Champions League. If you're not in the Champions League for any extended period of time, you're not getting the top players, you're not getting the top revenues, and your club loses value. If Kroenke's only targets are monetary, why would he let his asset depreciate to the point where he turns only a marginal profit, when right now he could sell at a significant profit? (I'm aware that the Premier League's rising financial tide is lifting all boats, but that factors into the value of a potential sale as well as an annual profit, and the Premier League isn't the closed shop that American sports leagues are.)

2) There is a much stronger tradition of fan power in world football than there is in American sports. If Kroenke were to somehow lead Arsenal down a path to mid-table mediocrity, you'd hear about it every week, and you'd see evidence of fan pressure in a way that you never do in Cleveland or Sacramento. Arsenal sucking - not perpetual 4th place, but really sliding to where they can no longer sell all of their tickets for every game at the Emirates and they're no longer relevant despite their massive infrastructure advantages - would be a far bigger deal than what we see with the likes of Newcastle or Aston Villa.

3) Most importantly, Arsene Wenger is not the only manager capable of managing Arsenal. If Wenger jumps or is pushed, Kroenke would have no shortage of top managers to choose from - and all of these potential managers would happily spend the warchest Wenger is currently Smauging. This isn't a Moyes-follows-Fergie thing: Ferguson left Man Utd while still at the top of his game, and Moyes had impossible shoes to fill, particularly as the squad he inherited needed a Fergie-like talent to get the best out of it. At Arsenal, for the better part of a decade Wenger's competitive edge has eroded and disappeared as the modern game slowly passes him by, but the foundations he built are as solid as ever, and even the squad he's built needs more of a personality transfusion than a massive talent infusion. If someone like Diego Simeone wants a new challenge at a stable club with no ownership pressure and where he doesn't have to sell his best players every year, where better to come than Arsenal?

As Arsenal fans we obviously have two massive problems: Kroenke is happy with fourth-place mediocrity and therefore won't sack or even pressure Wenger as long as that target keeps being met, and Wenger is too obstinate to resign as long as he feels the laurels for which he's grasping are still within his reach. So we remain in this perpetual cycle of frustration, not least because fans like this...
I don't believe Wenger should be sacked or that he should resign - I am not in the "Wenger Out" crew, not yet. I can't stomach the possibilities of what I alluded to above; in effect I am a coward too. I am afraid of what will happen when it all "burns down". My hope is that this season catalyzes bigger signings this summer and the release of certain players. I guess we will see.
...fear the unknown more than the known and believe Wenger still has it within him to turn Arsenal around despite masses of evidence to the contrary.

There's also the school of thought that Arsenal is probably the club with the fourth-best resources in the Premier League (behind Chelsea, Man Utd and Man City), and therefore Arsenal finishing third or fourth every year is probably at or slightly better than par. I might buy that theory if I thought all of these clubs were performing at or near peak efficiency, and Arsenal was losing titles in they way that they lost one in 1998-99, just pipped to the post by a slightly better team. But 2015-16 has shown the fallacies in that line of thinking: none of these four clubs are living up to their potential, and Arsenal is currently only in the top four because two of their main rivals have been staggeringly poor this season. Instead, Arsenal has been clearly surpassed by one fairytale (Leicester) and - more significantly, I think - one hitherto underachieving club (Tottenham) which plucked an excellent, improving manager from a traditionally weak club who has shaped his new team into what I think could become the Premier League's version of Atletico Madrid, a hitherto dormant force now capable of realizing its true potential. That's what Arsenal could become again, but that will never happen as long as the Kroenke-Wenger partnership remains intact. And while Leicester's rise is almost certainly temporary, Tottenham's could be more lasting...in which case Arsenal could go into next season as the de facto fifth-best club in the Premier League, or maybe even the sixth-best if Klopp fully finds his feet at Liverpool.

My realistic best-case scenario going forward is this: Wenger declares at some point this summer that 2016-17 will be his last season, and he works with Kroenke and the board to help pick his replacement. Give the best managers in Europe a year to process the impending availability of this fantastic job, and give Wenger's players the realization that they simply have to perform at their peak next year, both a) because it'll be their last chance to play for the manager who has been so loyal to them, and b) the gravy train of loyalty-based selection will soon be over. If Wenger wants any chance of going out on top, he has to commit to going out at all, and he can also buy back a lot of goodwill from Arsenal's fans by promising an end date and offering a way forward.
 

miracleofmidre

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Pure rubbish.

As Arsenal fans we obviously have two massive problems: Kroenke is happy with fourth-place mediocrity and therefore won't sack or even pressure Wenger as long as that target keeps being met, and Wenger is too obstinate to resign as long as he feels the laurels for which he's grasping are still within his reach. So we remain in this perpetual cycle of frustration, not least because fans like this...
I may be slightly misinterpreting the comment above but my own fear is of an impulsive "Wenger Out" sacking response, and the disarray that will come with that kind of response to fan dissatisfaction. It isn't that I don't want Wenger to move on (hence my comparison to Shula, and my sentiment that the game has perhaps passed Wenger by). I share your view of what a "best-case" scenario is. Wenger has always spoken about preparing for a proper transition, and I take him at his word on that - I hope this becomes an active preparation once the season ends. Since his contract runs one more year I have some hopes that this is the truly final year. But I fear an impulsive sacking to satisfy angry fans, which is not the same as allowing a transition to occur in proper fashion.

The premiership is a very different territory from US sports, it's a strange place to try to analyze and understand for me, I am still figuring it out (and may never, properly). As an American fan, and having spent about 17-18 years following Arsenal (much more intensely the last 10 as the internet allowed far greater access), I am an interloper; I cannot pretend to understand with any intimacy the emotional dynamic that lifelong (and local) supporters have with their club. The ramifications of change and a possible slide down the table seem obvious to me, though -- look where some clubs have gone following relegation and you can see why there's fear involved in change due to failure, especially when "failure" has been defined pretty far upwards with Arsenal these last several years.
 

soxfan121

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Pure rubbish.

1) The Premier League isn't the NFL or the NHL. You have to finish in the top four - could eventually be the top three, if England's UEFA coefficient slides far enough - to reach the Champions League. If you're not in the Champions League for any extended period of time, you're not getting the top players, you're not getting the top revenues, and your club loses value.
Hmmm....

17 of the 30 largest payrolls are in their league. The non-Big 4 clubs in EPL are all getting more money, getting better players, and improving.
Well said - I agree with all of that.
Stan Kroenke is perfectly happy ... turning a tiny profit...
Like you agreed last week, a mid-table finish in the EPL is enough to turn a tiny profit, without the UCL.

Good luck with the "strong tradition" thing. Really. I'm sure Stan is gonna care a lot.
 
I may be slightly misinterpreting the comment above but my own fear is of an impulsive "Wenger Out" sacking response, and the disarray that will come with that kind of response to fan dissatisfaction. It isn't that I don't want Wenger to move on (hence my comparison to Shula, and my sentiment that the game has perhaps passed Wenger by). I share your view of what a "best-case" scenario is. Wenger has always spoken about preparing for a proper transition, and I take him at his word on that - I hope this becomes an active preparation once the season ends. Since his contract runs one more year I have some hopes that this is the truly final year. But I fear an impulsive sacking to satisfy angry fans, which is not the same as allowing a transition to occur in proper fashion.
I don't think there's any scenario in which Kroenke sacks Wenger. None. So I don't think you have anything to worry about here. (The type of fan pressure I referenced in my previous post is far more likely to make Kroenke decide owning Arsenal isn't worthwhile than it is to shape his decision-making on an issue like this...and I don't think any such pressure would likely tell until after multiple seasons in mid-table obscurity. Randy Lerner is probably the closest Premier League model of what I have in mind in this regard.)

I do like the Wenger/Shula comparison, by the way.

The ramifications of change and a possible slide down the table seem obvious to me, though -- look where some clubs have gone following relegation and you can see why there's fear involved in change due to failure, especially when "failure" has been defined pretty far upwards with Arsenal these last several years.
Barring a Juventus-style cheating scandal, I don't think Arsenal is in any danger whatsoever of being relegated in my lifetime. That is Wenger's lasting legacy: he joined the club after a season in which Arsenal barely pipped Spurs and Everton for England's final UEFA Cup slot, and he not only very quickly changed the club's performance and outlook, he built the foundations for the club's lasting success and financial security. (By comparison, Spurs finished 14th in two of Wenger's title-winning seasons - which certainly qualifies as "in danger of relegation" in my book - and you need look no further than Leeds for a perfect example of a club which flew too close to the sun without first building a solid foundation.) What happened to Chelsea this year is the realistic floor of clubs like Arsenal, Man Utd, Man City and Chelsea for the foreseeable future.

But Arsenal has become so stagnant under Wenger, the club is in real danger of approaching that floor under Wenger's leadership. Let's not forget that Arsenal led the Premier League for large stretches this season mainly because Chelsea, Man Utd and Man City were all an utter SHAMBLES for the first half of the season, not because Arsenal was playing Invincibles-style football. Arsenal is at best treading water, and Arsenal under Wenger is far more likely to get worse relative to their competition than they are to get better. (My only hope for the latter involves the goodwill a farewell tour-type season might engender.) Chelsea under Conte and Man City under Pep are very likely to get much better next year. Spurs have scored the most goals and conceded the fewest in the league this season; they're not going anywhere soon. Liverpool could take a great leap forward after Klopp's first summer at the club. Another Leicester could emerge - or maybe Leicester themselves might have more staying power than I expect. Keeping Wenger in place doesn't guarantee Arsenal's birthright to Champions League football.
 

soxfan121

JAG
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I just don't think there's much to argue about. Any EPL team can turn a "tiny profit" by finishing mid-table. Kroneke just moved a team out of St. Louis and has decades of experience not giving a shit about fans. These points are not debatable.

It is my opinion that you lot will regret all this "Wenger Out" stuff - and miracleofmidre has done a decent job arguing that as an Arsenal fan. There's nothing to "argue" there. We'll see next year whether you lot regret not having Wenger.

Sorry to disappoint. Your "rebuttal" isn't a rebuttal to the point I made. You missed the word "tiny" the first time.
 

JimBoSox9

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Nov 1, 2005
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No, he means unlike St. Louis, Arsenal's financial situation would have to steeply decline to reach "tiny" level. If that's going to happen under his ownership tenure, then it's probable that selling to a new owner would become the more logical financial move during that decline. Obviously there would just be a different level of investor interest than in his other properties.

i don't think he's right, mainly because it underestimates how much of a nightmare Kroenke is (he doesn't make logical financial decisions, he actually enjoyrs owning teams poorly), but he didn't miss "tiny".
 

DLew On Roids

guilty of being sex
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You miserable lot might be temporarily happy to know that all Arsenal gear is 50% off at Toffs right now. I've bought a couple of throwbacks from them over the past few years and it's really cool. Plus you never get weird looks for wearing last year's shirt when you're wearing a 1977 replica.
 

sachmoney

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You miserable lot might be temporarily happy to know that all Arsenal gear is 50% off at Toffs right now. I've bought a couple of throwbacks from them over the past few years and it's really cool. Plus you never get weird looks for wearing last year's shirt when you're wearing a 1977 replica.
Thanks for the heads up. Gonna look so cool in a 1913 retro shirt. So much cred.
 
Welp, we're done here Arsene. You are officially the 2nd most deluded man on the planet behind the guy running motherfucking NORTH KOREA.

Arsène Wenger: Arsenal playing in a ‘very difficult climate’ at Emirates

Blaming the fans for your teams failures?

That's a paddlin'
Even better than that, check this one out:

Arsene Wenger: Emirates Stadium loans came from my commitment
"When we built the stadium the banks demanded that I signed for five years," said the 66-year-old Frenchman.

"Do you want me to say how many clubs I turned down during that period?"
Talk about tone deaf. I don't doubt he's telling the truth, but this is basically the inverse of his "I could have bought Messi when he was eight years old" schtick. I mean, just shut up already.
 

miracleofmidre

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What did Welbeck do to piss off Wenger? It's almost like he keeps starting Giroud just to show the fans he's the Boss, and he alone knows everything. It can't be that he's still hurt or in recovery, he's in the reserves and able to play.

Today, especially, after the last week or two of more visible/vocal unrest and after his press conference yesterday (and after Giroud's game against Sunderland), it comes off as real petulance from Wenger. He'll show those simpleton fans who is in charge, past performance from his chosen striker be damned.

(Now watch Giroud net a brace...)