What do the Bruins see in Kevan Miller?

The Napkin

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"He's been no better or worse than anyone else."
Why does Claude keep playing him so much?
And why doesn't Sweeney send him to Provy to save Claude from himself?

Seriously, help me out here. Why is he still doing what he just did in Buffalo and not watching from the press box or getting his head out of his ass in Provy?
 

LogansDad

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I vote that instead of putting him on the ice, when his shift comes up the Bruins should just play with 4 skaters.
 

Maximus

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He is a horrible "defensive defenseman" and has no offensive skills. It is scary that Sweeney and Neely can't see this.
 

timlinin8th

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I said this in the game thread, but who comes in to fill Miller's roster spot? Matt Irwin? Tommy Cross? Miller sucks but there isn't a lot of alternatives. Kevan should be the scratch even still but hasn't been.

Once McQuaid is back though....
 

timlinin8th

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Isn't this the problem with Clode? Always sticks with veterans even when they may be worse than the the kids?
Zach Trotman has been getting plenty of minutes, and he should be in the AHL too.

Go back and read the predictions thread for this year. I did recently and the defensive issues this team has were entirely predicted. They went into the season with a poor D, and Clode's system needs a solid D core to work effectively.
 

The Napkin

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I said this in the game thread, but who comes in to fill Miller's roster spot? Matt Irwin? Tommy Cross? Miller sucks but there isn't a lot of alternatives. Kevan should be the scratch even still but hasn't been.

Once McQuaid is back though....
When McQuaid was playing how many times did Miller sit? What makes you think that will change based on Claude's comments?
 

Maximus

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When Mcquaid's back, Clode will sit Trotman. Miller will continue to play.
 

cshea

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I said this in the game thread, but who comes in to fill Miller's roster spot? Matt Irwin? Tommy Cross? Miller sucks but there isn't a lot of alternatives. Kevan should be the scratch even still but hasn't been.

Once McQuaid is back though....
Miller out, Morrow in, Seidenberg to the right. Problem solved.

I'm dumbfounded by the Kevan Miller thing. There's no rational explanation for the size of leash he's received. He is making mistakes on a nightly basis that's resulting in goals against, yet he hasn't seen any reduction in ice time.
 

Maximus

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Miller out, Morrow in, Seidenberg to the right. Problem solved.

I'm dumbfounded by the Kevan Miller thing. There's no rational explanation for the size of leash he's received. He is making mistakes on a nightly basis that's resulting in goals against, yet he hasn't seen any reduction in ice time.
This is exactly what should be done.
 

MiracleOfO2704

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When McQuaid was playing how many times did Miller sit? What makes you think that will change based on Claude's comments?
Hell, if anything, prepare for a staggering McQuaid-K. Miller pairing. Because anyone that thinks McQuaid's return will end Kevan's time with the Bruins just hasn't been paying attention at all this season. We ask how all of Julien, Sweeney, and Neely don't see him as an issue, and we're dancing around the obvious answer: they don't. They think he's solid and tough in the corners, so he's not the problem.
 

timlinin8th

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Miller out, Morrow in, Seidenberg to the right. Problem solved.

I'm dumbfounded by the Kevan Miller thing. There's no rational explanation for the size of leash he's received. He is making mistakes on a nightly basis that's resulting in goals against, yet he hasn't seen any reduction in ice time.
Morrow isn't really a solution either though, and moving Seidenberg over when he's already starting to wear down...

I'm in no way defending Kevan. He's horrible. If anything I'm damning the front office for entering into the season in an entirely predictable situation. I said in the game thread, its shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic... Their current D roster at both levels can't be configured in a way that gives you a decent NHL caliber top 4 dmen. Miller is the poster child of this problem.
 

MiracleOfO2704

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Morrow isn't really a solution either though, and moving Seidenberg over when he's already starting to wear down...

I'm in no way defending Kevan. He's horrible. If anything I'm damning the front office for entering into the season in an entirely predictable situation. I said in the game thread, its shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic... Their current D roster at both levels can't be configured in a way that gives you a decent NHL caliber top 4 dmen. Miller is the poster child of this problem.
I think the frustration is borne out of the belief that other players, such as Colin Miller, Trotman, Morrow, etc. make those mistakes and lose TOI, if not games. Kevan Miller is a kamikaze pilot on D and gets a public vote of confidence. Had Kevan lost some time, I think we'd all agree with your position, which is equally true.
 

TheRealness

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I think the frustration is borne out of the belief that other players, such as Colin Miller, Trotman, Morrow, etc. make those mistakes and lose TOI, if not games. Kevan Miller is a kamikaze pilot on D and gets a public vote of confidence. Had Kevan lost some time, I think we'd all agree with your position, which is equally true.
Precisely.

Claude favoring Kevan is entirely predictable though. He works out like a mad man, plays a "sandpaper" game, and is willing to fight when needed. Claude probably gets a hard on just thinking about him doing a pull up.

It is what it is, and it won't change. He has blinders on when it comes to these guys.

Edit - When it comes to Sweeney/Neely, I think they are giving playing time control entirely to Claude to sink or swim with so I don't blame them as much.
 

timlinin8th

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Edit - When it comes to Sweeney/Neely, I think they are giving playing time control entirely to Claude to sink or swim with so I don't blame them as much.
This little piece probably states the original point I wanted to make a little clearer than I did.
 

Jordu

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What worries me is that only two D men on the roster have the potential to become better players: Morrow and C. Miller. After that, the best D prospects are in Juniors.
 

Manzivino

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Arnesson's in Providence, he's probably riding the shuttle next year but he has potential to be the defensive side of a 3/4 pair. The top tier D prospects are all in juniors, but Carlo at least will get AHL run after his junior season ends (TriCity has no shot at the playoffs).

The biggest need in the system is undoubtedly to add at least 1 young, NHL ready defenseman with upside.
 

burstnbloom

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  1. It has already been stated, but the maddening thing about Kevan Miller is the total lack of accountability for his errors. I think Claude likes him because he tries to play it safe. When he makes errors, they aren't usually because he is freelancing or making a low percentage play, its because he's terrible. Miller and Morrow don't enjoy the same leash because they are more creative players. When C. Miller makes an error its because he's made an aggressive cross ice pass that resulted in a change of possession. When Morrow does it, he's made a stretch pass that is picked off at the blue line. The thing that drives me crazy is the chasm of difference between the upside of the players. Kevan is 28, a UFA and not likely to be back next year. The idea that he won't be held accountable for his errors when players whose development is far more important to the future of the team are without prejudice just doesn't make sense to me.
I just feel like if the defense is going to suck, at least let it suck because talented players are learning on the fly and not because terrible players are sucking because they suck.

edit- I cant get rid of that phantom indented 1. I feel like im in college battling Microsoft Word.
 

jk333

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I think Sweeney gives Claude input regarding players. Every young defenseman has been scratched this year but not Kevan. I think Sweeney likes the grit and physicality. Miller fits Claude's system better than Colin Miller or Joe Morrow. I think Miller is playing for the same reasons Rinaldo plays. He fits Claude's system and adds physicality on a team that management views as needing it.

Sweeney brought Rinaldo in for energy and I think Miller is a similar player. With that said, improving from Miller to an actual Top 4 D who is physical would be a huge upgrade.
 

Dummy Hoy

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I hate threads like this because it's nothing but masturbatory speculation. Compare this with the Why do the Bruins Suck at Home thread- that had reason, logic, research. This has mostly insults, complaints, and ridiculous assertions that people have insight into the staff's mindset and what is going on behind closed doors.

I'm not blaming Nap, but this thread should have been called "We Hate Kevan Miller"
 

The Napkin

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It was an honest question. If you have a possible thing the Bruins might see in KM go for it. Bring some reason, logic, or research if you have it.
 

Dummy Hoy

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It was an honest question. If you have a possible thing the Bruins might see in KM go for it. Bring some reason, logic, or research if you have it.
But it's an honest question that we can't answer.

It's obvious that the Bruins brass (or at least Claude with the freedom to decide) sees KM differently than most people here. His "strengths" were well articulated by Realness- "He works out like a mad man, plays a "sandpaper" game, and is willing to fight when needed". After that, what else do people offer other than speculation about Sweeney's mindset or complaints about Miller's playing time.

And I'm not trying to rag you (or anyone else really)- I'm glad you start new threads because this place has been a bit stale on that front recently. I just don't see how we get anything substantial from this question.
 

lexrageorge

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Some quick research shows that Kevan Miller has been a slight net positive regarding the team's possession stats. He's actually been better than McQuaid, Trotman or Seidenberg in that regard. However, I'm still not convinced they take into account the opposition. Trotman is frequently matched up with Chara, which means he's going against the opposing team's top unit a lot of times.

The same research shows that he's way behind Colin Miller in those same stats, for whatever they're worth.

It is certainly thread-worthy to ask the question behind K Miller's usage as compared with the other blue liners on the team.
 

Dummy Hoy

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Some quick research shows that Kevan Miller has been a slight net positive regarding the team's possession stats. He's actually been better than McQuaid, Trotman or Seidenberg in that regard. However, I'm still not convinced they take into account the opposition. Trotman is frequently matched up with Chara, which means he's going against the opposing team's top unit a lot of times.

The same research shows that he's way behind Colin Miller in those same stats, for whatever they're worth.

It is certainly thread-worthy to ask the question behind K Miller's usage as compared with the other blue liners on the team.
Thank you for the first part of your post...I would be surprised if they didn't take opposition into account. Don't the bruins have 'stat guys' in the FO? That's a pretty basic thing to recognize.

Regarding the bolded, you're right (and as is Nap for starting the thread). I guess when I see responses such as:

"I vote that instead of putting him on the ice, when his shift comes up the Bruins should just play with 4 skaters."
"He is a horrible "defensive defenseman" and has no offensive skills. It is scary that Sweeney and Neely can't see this."
"Isn't this the problem with Clode? Always sticks with veterans even when they may be worse than the the kids?"

as well as a bunch of presumptions about what the staff thinks or will do, I don't see the point of that.
 

cshea

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Here's Kevan Miller's numbers and where he ranks amongst the 8 regular the Bruins have used this year (so no Irwin or Cross). This is even strength. This was a surprising excersise.

- CF 3rd, 50.2%
- CorsiRel- 1.3, 3rd
- CF/60- 55.11, 5th
- CA/60- 54.69, 3rd
- SF/60- 30.41, 5th
- SA/60- 29.05, 3rd
- GF/60- 2.73, 2nd
- GA/60- 2.56, 7th
- O-Zone start- 29.9%, 6th
- D-Zone start- 28.5%, 7th
- Neutral Zone Start- 41.6%, 1st
- On-ice Save %- .9120, 7th
- Points per 60- 1.03, 3rd

So there we go. My takeaway is that Kevan Miller's been better than the eye has indicated. Numbers wise, he's been one of their better D. He's a low event guy. Not a lot of shots for or against when he's on the ice, but he generally comes out slightly ahead in the shot differentials. Claude must be leery of his defense because he does avoid putting Miller out there for DZone starts. Only Colin has fewer DZone starts. Kevan is also 2nd on the team in PK TOI behind only Chara.

The big concern is the goals against per 60 and the on ice save percentage. The 2.56 GA/60 ranks 144th out of 161 D with 500 minutes. The save percentage is bad too. I don't think it is bad luck. I think when he makes a mistake, me makes a real bad one that hangs everyone out to dry. Like the pinch fiasco with Pastrnak last night. I think this is where our "gahhhhhhh Miller sucks!!!!!" moments come. When he screws up, he makes them count. And they are obvious to everyone watching.

My view after looking at this- Julien knows Kevan has limitations in moving the puck, hence the lack of DZone starts, but he does think Miller is a good, relatively safe positional, stay at home defenseman as evidenced by the PK time on ice. You're not looking to break the puck out on the PK, so he lets him play there and chip it out all day.
 

lexrageorge

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Thank you for the first part of your post...I would be surprised if they didn't take opposition into account. Don't the bruins have 'stat guys' in the FO? That's a pretty basic thing to recognize.
To clarify, when I said "they", I was guilty of poorly using a pronoun. What I was trying to say is that I'm not sure the CF and Fenwick and other possession stats take opposition into account. I've heard someone once say the stats do, but I've yet to find any evidence that is the case.

The Bruins front office probably does take opposition into account; from what I can tell, they're not a bunch of Steve Kasper's.

And kudos for cshea for his research. That is the answer to the question. My thought is that we'd be a lot less upset if K Miller was a 3rd pairing guy on the 2011 Bruins team.
 

cshea

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Corsi/Fenwick on their own don't take competition into account. They are just simple shot differentials.

Some places do track CorsiQoC (quality of competition). Kevan Miller gets harder assignments, he's about middle of the road on the Bruins. Colin gets easier assignments.
 

Dummy Hoy

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Here's Kevan Miller's numbers and where he ranks amongst the 8 regular the Bruins have used this year (so no Irwin or Cross). This is even strength. This was a surprising excersise.

So there we go. My takeaway is that Kevan Miller's been better than the eye has indicated. Numbers wise, he's been one of their better D. He's a low event guy. Not a lot of shots for or against when he's on the ice, but he generally comes out slightly ahead in the shot differentials. Claude must be leery of his defense because he does avoid putting Miller out there for DZone starts. Only Colin has fewer DZone starts. Kevan is also 2nd on the team in PK TOI behind only Chara.

The big concern is the goals against per 60 and the on ice save percentage. The 2.56 GA/60 ranks 144th out of 161 D with 500 minutes. The save percentage is bad too. I don't think it is bad luck. I think when he makes a mistake, me makes a real bad one that hangs everyone out to dry. Like the pinch fiasco with Pastrnak last night. I think this is where our "gahhhhhhh Miller sucks!!!!!" moments come. When he screws up, he makes them count. And they are obvious to everyone watching.

My view after looking at this- Julien knows Kevan has limitations in moving the puck, hence the lack of DZone starts, but he does think Miller is a good, relatively safe positional, stay at home defenseman as evidenced by the PK time on ice. You're not looking to break the puck out on the PK, so he lets him play there and chip it out all day.
You are absolute stud in this forum. Thanks for doing the lifting that lazy hacks like me don't. TFP needs to hit you with a tagline.
And I think your bit of research just answered Nap's question.

To clarify, when I said "they", I was guilty of poorly using a pronoun. What I was trying to say is that I'm not sure the CF and Fenwick and other possession stats take opposition into account. I've heard someone once say the stats do, but I've yet to find any evidence that is the case.

The Bruins front office probably does take opposition into account; from what I can tell, they're not a bunch of Steve Kasper's.

And kudos for cshea for his research. That is the answer to the question. My thought is that we'd be a lot less upset if K Miller was a 3rd pairing guy on the 2011 Bruins team.
Gotcha.
 

Jordu

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My view after looking at this- Julien knows Kevan has limitations in moving the puck, hence the lack of DZone starts, but he does think Miller is a good, relatively safe positional, stay at home defenseman as evidenced by the PK time on ice. You're not looking to break the puck out on the PK, so he lets him play there and chip it out all day.
Thanks, cshea, for the work and the insight.
 

catomatic

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I watched only a bit of tonight's game on my phone but when it seemed that Kevan was on the ice for several GA, I played a few of them back. This was before things got totally out of hand but he was on the ice for like at least 4GA. We scored 2, so how the hell did he wind up only -1 on the stat sheet? Anyone?
 

catomatic

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I think one was on the Penalty Kill
Ah, of course. I just saw him out there for 3 or 4 in a row, was consumed with blind rage, and went to the box score a few minutes ago expecting to see -6. The backhand pass from behind the net that he put on the tape of a King at the bottom of the circle was a really special one. Or special minus one, I should say. That stat sheet deserves the "You Lie!!" response.
 

joe dokes

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To answer the question posed in the thread title...at this point, there's only two possibilities: meat or pet.
 

PedroSpecialK

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The plays he made to lead to the first two goals were putrid at best.

I really hope he sits but with C. Miller scratched again last night I'm doubtful this situation changes
 

Dummy Hoy

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I'm not a fan of waiving a guy just to send a message but man, if there was ever a time to waive a guy just to send a message the time is now and the guy is Miller.
Have you read CShea's work in this thread as well as the game thread? Waiving Kevan Miller isn't helping anything and it isn't happening.
 

McDrew

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I asked this in the gamethread, but hopefully I can ask it here: How many of the Bruins 147 goals against has Kevan Miller been on the ice for?

Edit: found it, am compiling
 
Last edited:

McDrew

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Found out where to find it on HR:

Total goals against in the 2015-2016 season.
Chara: 57 (17 on PK) in 51 GP. (24:15/game)
Cross: 4 (1 on PK) in 3 GP (13:00/game)
Irwin: 6 (0 on PK) in 2 GP (15:00/game)
Krug: 30 (1 on PK) in 52 GP (21:30/game)
McQuaid: 28 (10 on PK) in 38 GP (17:48/game)
C Miller:27 (0 ok PK) in 38 GP (15:53/game)
K Miller: 46 (10 on PK) in 46 GP (20:00/game)
Morrow: 19 (3 on PK) in 20 GP (16:30/game)
Seidenberg: 29 (4 on PK) in 37 GP (19:30/game)
Trotman: 18 (1 on PK) in 31 GP(19:15/game)
 

Lose Remerswaal

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Have you read CShea's work in this thread as well as the game thread? Waiving Kevan Miller isn't helping anything and it isn't happening.
I know that, but McQuaid will be back soon (I hope) and someone's got to lose some minutes.

The real answers are in the Trade Deadline thread. I wonder if this team is playing for the #8 seed so they have fewer home games?
 

cshea

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Well, he has a positive even strength goal differential. Not by much (51.5% GF%), but his head is above water and they score a lot when he is on the ice too. Only 3 other Bruin defenseman are positive- Chara, Krug and C. Miller.

I'm not trying to defend him or the team's usage of him. It is just that the reality is the defense as a whole sucks and the other guys aren't good either. It is what it is. They don't have many options. Seidenberg is a disaster. Morrow's not quite ready yet. Trotman is over his head playing with Z and against top competition. I'm in full agreement that when Kevan Miller has disasters like what happened last night, he should sit. I'd play Morrow and Colin Miller every night over Seidenberg and Kevan Miller and sink or swim with the kids, but Julien/Sweeney want to win now and thus more veterans while they try and rotate C. Miller/Morrow in. Play the kids, they have higher ceilings.
 

veritas

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Kevan Miller really highlights a couple of Claude's strengths and weaknesses.

On one hand, he's great at getting the most out of bottom half of the roster players. Miller x2, Morrow, Seidenberg, Trotman, McQuaid, they all should be 3rd pair guys on a decent team. Krug is great but needs a lot of protection. But some combination of those are defensemen 2-6 every night, and somehow this team was above average in goals allowed before last night. It hasn't always been pretty but as a group they've been playing way over their heads.

On the other hand, he doesn't seem to be very good at realizing which of these type of players are overall more effective than others, and generally leans towards more conservative (low risk, low reward over high risk, high reward) players. The Miller v Miller thing is a perfect example of that.
 

FL4WL3SS

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Kevan Miller really highlights a couple of Claude's strengths and weaknesses.

On one hand, he's great at getting the most out of bottom half of the roster players. Miller x2, Morrow, Seidenberg, Trotman, McQuaid, they all should be 3rd pair guys on a decent team. Krug is great but needs a lot of protection. But some combination of those are defensemen 2-6 every night, and somehow this team was above average in goals allowed before last night. It hasn't always been pretty but as a group they've been playing way over their heads.

On the other hand, he doesn't seem to be very good at realizing which of these type of players are overall more effective than others, and generally leans towards more conservative (low risk, low reward over high risk, high reward) players. The Miller v Miller thing is a perfect example of that.
Is this really true though? He correctly protects younger guys from crazy stressful situations, but that's completely different from leaning on the low risk low reward guys. I think all coaches do that and I don't think it's specific to Julien.

If I had the time, I'd dig up some numbers for similar players under other coaches. I think, generally, you'd see guys like C. Miller getting inconsistent ice time. It just goes with the territory.