On the flip side, were there any plans in the entire game where DE Charles Johnson for the Panthers lined up outside the neutral zone? Nearly every play his head was even or behind the ball.
Cammie and the Pussycats: What Went Wrong?
- Thread starter OCST
- Start date
I think most players just ignore that stuff and start the next play. The successful ones, anyway. If you let the refs get in your head, you're not focused on executing plays.
Reminds me of a point this season when someone asked Von Miller about a game when he had been held a ton of times with no flags. His take was something like "yeah I got held but as soon as the whistle blows I need to forget that play and prepare for the next one. You can't think about it."
There were also at least two intentional grounding non-calls on Newton. One was incredibly obvious and simply missed. The refs definitely did not decide this game. They certainly weren't perfect but other than the Cotchery catch I can't think of a single close call that went Denver's way.
Congrats on the win.
The only reason I am so bothered by this call is because it was a mistake on the field and then from the home office as well when they said they would be in the refs ears.
To the point that they won by 14, take away the Defensive TD and then it is far less likely there is the second strip sack late in the game with Carolina forced into a pass-heavy offence to attempting to come back.
The teams have to deal with whatever happens outside of their control, but after the game, a bigger deal should be made of the one completely blown call that led to the game being significantly altered. Change that call to a catch and the game is completely different.
Edit: I'm done arguing this now, Sorry for all the posts about it.
Id say Denver got the better of the calls last night, but the refs weren't a major factor. Playing at home because of the earlier shitshow ref game was a break for Denver, but officiating wasn't really a factor in the playoff games.
I don't think the non-overturn on the catch was that egregious, so it may be coloring my views. That's a catch to me, but not reversing it is defensible and Ive seen those kind of plays where the ball doesn't definitely to hit the ground but the receiver doesn't keep control called incomplete more than they are called a catch.
I don't think the non-overturn on the catch was that egregious, so it may be coloring my views. That's a catch to me, but not reversing it is defensible and Ive seen those kind of plays where the ball doesn't definitely to hit the ground but the receiver doesn't keep control called incomplete more than they are called a catch.
Can someone explain why there were so few attempts in either the SB or the AFCCG to run a screen or passes to the flat? Maybe it didn't matter because the front four were creating most of the pressure. But esp. after the Pats OL crumbled under the pressure you'd think that Shula would've had a few screens drawn up.
It was an incomplete pass on first down, in the first quarter. It didn't cause the fumble two plays later, and there's no real basis for your assumption that the game would be completely different. He could just as likely have fumbled the ball on his next dropback.
Good point and no idea.
Carolina's game plan was if they watched no tape of the AFCCG. Most of their plays had zero chance of success. Why they didn't roll Cam out and give him more time and space to read and react is hard to figure. They should have scrapped all those inside runs after about 3 tries at most. Terrible game plan and horrible effort by Cam.
Yeah, this is where I am too. How do you come out in the 2nd half and just continue trying to run it up the guy. I know the "Keep Pounding" thing is their mantra (and was suprisingly fun to chant) and all, but they didn't seem to make any adjustments at halftime to their overall running game plan. I just kept sitting yelling "where's the outside option???" after watching that play work so well. . . . . just to keep them honest and thinking it was a possibility.
I had Denver by 4-7 in the poll and the game played out more or less as I expected. I think the defenses were roughly equivalent but Manning has learned to accept the limitations that come with old age and nearly 20 years in the NFL. Newton still thinks he can make plays, and you just can't do that against a great defense in the playoffs*. Even in today's NFL, defense wins championships and QB's have to be a bit more cautious and get rid of the ball extra quick.
I also didn't expect Carolina to score as many points as the Patriots did against Denver's D. Even with the OL and Edelman at less than 100%, the Patriots have a better offense than Carolina.
* Unless your name is Russell Wilson.
I also didn't expect Carolina to score as many points as the Patriots did against Denver's D. Even with the OL and Edelman at less than 100%, the Patriots have a better offense than Carolina.
* Unless your name is Russell Wilson.
I dont know. We're one year removed from Brady going 37-50 for 328 against the league's top defense and winning a title with the offense contributing much more than the defense. I think saying you cant make plays against a great defense in the playoffs is a bit to broad. Helps to have an accurate quarterback and skill players better than Philly Brown and Ted Ginn though.
Also, there was a killer non-call late in the 4th when I believe Ginn cut in from the left side and was grabbed on the cut by the DB. Should have given the Panthers a first down inside the 20 (and I think it was way inside, but am not sure) when they desperately needed a TD over a FG. It was a blatant non-call IMO and even more baffling it wasn't away from the ball - it was the focus.
What went right? Mike Shula's loss presumably caused Don Shula a lot of pain. Ahhhh...
What went right? Mike Shula's loss presumably caused Don Shula a lot of pain. Ahhhh...
I'll admit I haven't re-watched the game (so maybe some of these weren't as bad as I remember), but I recall several other non-calls that all went Denver's way; a running into the punter on the big punt return that wasn't called, an offsides on the missed field goal that wasn't called, and while it was holding on that late penalty that gifted the Broncos a second TD, the Broncos DBs were making plays just as bad that were repeatedly not called. Something like 8 or 9 Panther penalties in the second half versus 0 for the Broncos. One can look at results like that in addition to the decision on the catch and interpret that as the NFL ordering the refs to hand the Broncos/Manning a championship.
At the same time I will say that the Panthers deserved to lose the game regardless and don't get much sympathy if they or their fans are crying about the refs/NFL stealing a championship from them. Cam Newton gave up on that fumble, the play calling was horrendous and they played with hardly any urgency. Much like when the Pats lost to the Broncos during the regular season after some horrendous biased officiating, I still look at them and can't say they deserved to win the game.
Eh, I don't think that is a reasonable interpretation at all.
Carolina was far more undisciplined and was called for six penalties on false start/neutral zone infraction/delay of game, two illegal blocks on special teams, one unnecessary roughness, and one unsportsmanlike conduct. 10/12 penalties were almost automatic if the ref is in the right place to see it. They also had two defensive holding penalties that are much more subjective. The big one I remember in the second half was clearly defensive holding in the endzone, but we all know that doesn't always get called. I don't remember seeing the other one, but it was declined, so I don't think there was an impact there. So, one big judgment call that went against them. The majority of their penalties were stupid ones.
Denver's six penalties were also mostly of the automatic variety. Mostly because of Talib being a jackass. One unnecessary roughness, one taunting, one facemask, one offside, and one ineligible downfield kick. There only real judgment call was one offensive holding. Maybe Talib's taunting down the side was questionable, but eh, he was being stupid.
The refs definitely let them play because there was a lot of offensive holding that could have been called on either side as both teams struggled against the pass rush. I was glad to see it. The flow was pretty good without too many judgement calls. They called the obvious shit and did enough to keep the game from getting too chippy. I'm not a fan of either team. I think the refs did a decent job overall.
Agree that the refs did not determine the game. Von Miller, et al, did. However, Denver got the benefit of several calls that were all huge:
- Calling Cotchery's catch incomplete, and then not having enough evidence to overturn it. Next play: strip sack, TD. That's a seven point swing. Maybe 10.
- Missed FG, didn't call Talib offsides when he clearly was. That's another 3 points potentially for Carolina.
- At least two times Denver clearly held or interfered with a Carolina receiver, and both would have been big plays for Carolina. Letting Denver get away with that but calling Carolina for that in the end zone.......
Put it this way: I don't see it as a conspiracy, but let's just say that Denver got all the breaks.
- Calling Cotchery's catch incomplete, and then not having enough evidence to overturn it. Next play: strip sack, TD. That's a seven point swing. Maybe 10.
- Missed FG, didn't call Talib offsides when he clearly was. That's another 3 points potentially for Carolina.
- At least two times Denver clearly held or interfered with a Carolina receiver, and both would have been big plays for Carolina. Letting Denver get away with that but calling Carolina for that in the end zone.......
Put it this way: I don't see it as a conspiracy, but let's just say that Denver got all the breaks.
Who has the worst game in a Superbowl? Cam Newton or Rex Grossman.
As mentioned he was throwing off his back foot all game and shoes no touch on downfield throw when he needed it.
The amazing thing to me is how many stupid unforced penalties and drops/fumbles they had. They had the shotgun out shooting their own foot for 60 minutes on offense and special teams.
As mentioned he was throwing off his back foot all game and shoes no touch on downfield throw when he needed it.
The amazing thing to me is how many stupid unforced penalties and drops/fumbles they had. They had the shotgun out shooting their own foot for 60 minutes on offense and special teams.
I actually think that Newton got hurt early in the game, looked to me like his left arm/shoulder. At one point before halftime, he appeared to be holding his left arm. The slide he took on one of his runs seemed very premature, and honestly I can't recall seeing him slide many other times this season. This also might explain why he didn't dive in the pile for his fumble later in the game.
This was what bugged me. It looked like they ran into the punter, but no replay was shown and nobody seemed to complain, so it must not have happened. Did it?
His own teammate backed into him just after the punt was away. There was a rusher there, so he was likely pushed back into him, which is legal.
I think a big key for Denver, both in this game and the season, was 33-year-old Demarcus Ware fighting back father time. Von Miller is a given as an elite pass rusher, but I thought Ware was close to cooked after he left Dallas, yet he resurrected his game this year. That gave Denver not one, but two elite edge rushers to compliment their better-than-average secondary (I think their linebackers were "meh"). Not many o-lines have two tackles that can handle that.
This why I like BB seemingly emphasizing the pass rush this past year-plus, with Sheard, Easley, Brown, Grissom, Flowers,... Consistent pressure on the quarterback - any quarterback - seems to be a game changer.
But yeah, I think Ware staying healthy and productive was a big component to Denver's defense this year. Malik Jackson turned out to be a player, too.
This why I like BB seemingly emphasizing the pass rush this past year-plus, with Sheard, Easley, Brown, Grissom, Flowers,... Consistent pressure on the quarterback - any quarterback - seems to be a game changer.
But yeah, I think Ware staying healthy and productive was a big component to Denver's defense this year. Malik Jackson turned out to be a player, too.
It was not the next play, and in no world was it a 10 point swing. The play was a 1st and 10 from the 15. If it was complete, it was 1st and 10 from Carolina's own 38. Instead, it was 2nd and 10 from the 15. The call didn't cause Carolina to run the ball up the gut for no gain on the next play, it didn't cause Carolina to try to throw the ball deep two plays later. The Panthers were just as likely to have passed (and gotten stripped) two plays later with or without the call, and there is no reason to believe they were likely to score had it gone their way. Their win probability was not significantly changed by that incomplete pass.
You just can't hang the fumble on the incomplete pass. This is not the case of a call being the difference between score/no-score or turnover/no-turnover. The connection people are trying to make with the fumble is just too speculative.
Has anyone on the Carolina punt unit said that they were or weren't confused over whether a fair catch had been called on the big return?
The fair catch rules need to be clarified or just enforced as written. A minor pet peeve of mine in watching games this year was that fair catch calls are way too cursory and I think it's easy for the coverage team to be confused. I've been waiting all year for some return guy to get drilled because he makes a quick fair catch call and the punting team doesn't see it.
The matter wasn't helped by the fact that at least twice earlier in the game Norwood signaled, made the catch in motion, then continued to jog at half speed for several steps with no effort to plant his feet.
The fair catch rules need to be clarified or just enforced as written. A minor pet peeve of mine in watching games this year was that fair catch calls are way too cursory and I think it's easy for the coverage team to be confused. I've been waiting all year for some return guy to get drilled because he makes a quick fair catch call and the punting team doesn't see it.
The matter wasn't helped by the fact that at least twice earlier in the game Norwood signaled, made the catch in motion, then continued to jog at half speed for several steps with no effort to plant his feet.
I never understood why some PR units are so aloof. Many of these guys have 1 job in the NFL and these brain farts continue to happen. For one, I hate when the gunners race by the returner. Hang around to see if he drops the ball. Secondly, Carolina had like 5 guys right around Norwood but nobody thought to block the sideline. You get a better appreciation of why Belichick puts starters on these units. These plays change games and there are too many morons on ST units who choke in big moments.
No, one cannot. No one with any amount of objectivity could honestly say that the NFL or the refs were handing the game to Denver. That's a completely absurd comment. Only someone with an irrational hatred of Peyton would make this claim.
It seems like a pretty big stretch to assume that if Talib was a fraction of a second later that Gano makes the kick (I know you said "potentially"). Maybe he would have but it's also possible that he simply blew it and it had nothing to do with Talib. People are really reaching for evidence that Denver was given a gift win when it simply didn't happen.
The argument is not that he would have made the kick were it not for the offsides (though he may have), it's that he likely would have made the next one, from at least five yards closer.
I understand. But it sounded like people were saying his head start caused the miss. The call wasn't made but it's not like the kick was blocked. He still could've made it despite Talib getting an extra foot closer to Gano. If that wasn't the point then I misunderstood.
The whole conspiracy theory idea is still ridiculous either way.
IMO the 3rd qtr Cotchery dropped pass down the right-sideline at the Broncos 2 (if he held on and he should have, they take the lead 14-13) and then the doinked FG was series that sucked the life out of the Panthers. The Broncos got good field position got a FG, and took a 2-score lead. (16-7) IMO if the Panthers could have played ahead, Peyton would have been pressured to play football. But that series seemed to suck the life out of the Panthers.
Agreed. Cotchery really screwed the Panthers with his drops but that's what you get for relying on Jets castoff in the Super Bowl. He really did have some killer drops given what happened right after them. Next year, Carolina will be much better with Benjamin, Funchess, Brown, and whoever they pick up in the draft/FA. Having to rely on scrubs like Cotchery/Ginn in the SB is brutal.
That's 90% of the answer--the Broncos were getting up front with three or four in both the SB and AFCCG so screens aren't going to help. The other 10% of the answer is that Denver plays a shitload of man and Denver has fast linebackers, so screens are just a good way for a linebacker to stick a running back for a 1 yard gain.
I agree with the folks saying Cam looked hurt. Maybe it was just that the lights were too bright but he certainly looked like a guy nursing something for a lot of the game. Another play I didn't like at ALL was the Bronco's player diving for the head shot over a sliding Newton in the first or second quarter. I was off the couch yelling for a flag and I don't like either team. That's the same crap the Broncos pulled all playoffs w/ the cheap shots. Then there was the Talib facemask which was obviously intentional and might warrant an ejection someday (two personal fouls....yeah right). The Broncos came in to intimidate and they did. The game was pretty similar to the broncos loss in the super bowl and I wonder how much the change in mentality was from the team memory of that game (I know tons of players and coaches change over but still). The game made me very thankful for BB and the staff. I can't believe the panthers coaching came up so small after watching the pats/broncos game. Light's radio interview had more ideas than they had after two weeks of 'planning'.
Did we forget the following line:
0/6, 0 yards, 0 TD
Tony Eason, Super Bowl XX
Thinking about this further, it's funny that arguably the two worst players on the field for Carolina were Jerricho Cotchery and Michael Oher - two of the few Panthers with Super Bowl experience. It goes to show that experience isn't everything.
For the record, I thought it was a catch, but I think the blame should go 95% to Cotchery. It was a 50-50 call for the refs based on the interpretation of the ball's movement when it touches the ground, but there was no reason for him not to catch it cleanly and remove all doubt. He might have been able to break the tackle from the safety and run for a while if he'd caught it, too. He was awful Sunday night.
Fumbling the ball on the 35 is a lot different than fumbling it on the 10, though. That was an underrated key to the game - both of Newton's fumbles essentially handed Denver touchdowns, while both of Manning's turnovers were more in the middle of the field where they had less impact. In a game where Denver had trouble moving the ball all night, handing them a touchdown is a killer. Carolina would have had pretty good odds of holding them to a field goal if the long pass to Cotchery had counted.
For the record, I thought it was a catch, but I think the blame should go 95% to Cotchery. It was a 50-50 call for the refs based on the interpretation of the ball's movement when it touches the ground, but there was no reason for him not to catch it cleanly and remove all doubt. He might have been able to break the tackle from the safety and run for a while if he'd caught it, too. He was awful Sunday night.
I don't even think Newton was worse than Manning, who also fumbled twice and threw a pick (and Manning's, unlike Newton's, was 100% his fault) in 20 fewer dropbacks.
This is also the answer why they were running up the middle. Running pitches and end arounds isn't tpyically the way people go after a defense with superior speed. Banging it up the middle; hopefully get the pass rushers worn out or at least give the OL a chance to hit the pass rushers, seems to me a fairly typical way of going.
In retrospect, people (like me) probably should have seen that Oher (whose move to RT was one big reason the Ravens were in the SB in 2013) and the other tackle weren't going to hold up very well against Ware and Miller.
I hate the broncos as much as anyone. I don't know how anyone can watch that Cotchery play and come away upset that it was incomplete. Football outsiders has a pretty good GIF of a good camera angle here:
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/clutch-encounters/2016/clutch-encounters-super-bowl-50
If the ball touches the ground during a catch, it has to be securely held, and can't move. Not only does it move, but Cotchery's whole hand comes off it. Its so clearly not a catch.
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/clutch-encounters/2016/clutch-encounters-super-bowl-50
If the ball touches the ground during a catch, it has to be securely held, and can't move. Not only does it move, but Cotchery's whole hand comes off it. Its so clearly not a catch.
Thanks for the link; that clearly shows it is not a catch; I think what has people upset about that was what happened shortly afterward, ie, the strip sack converted into a TD, which opened the floodgates for the "Oh great, naturally, Denver ends up with a TD off of that non reversal, typical Broncos luck, they get every break, horseshoe wedged up their collective asses".............blah, blah, blah.
As pointed out earlier up thread; Cotchery's drop up along the sideline that would have made it first and goal on the two but instead led to a missed FG was a dagger for Carolina, they were done after that for the most part.
Having watched that gif on the day and now six more times, I have to disagree with you. It's a catch. Hand under the ball.
That second one was another insane play by Von who surprisingly had him in coverage and closed the gap just in time to disrupt. Von was on fire.
Cotchery's horrible game has to be one of the most, if not the most, surprising individual performances of the SB. I just think of him as such a steady hand. If you had said last week: name ten players who could cost Carolina this game, no way would I have come up with Cotchery.
The GIF from Football Outsiders is helpful. First, calling Cotchery's catch attempt incomplete is a reasonable call for the on field official to make. He has to make that call in real time with bodies flying around, and if he thinks the ball may have touched the ground without Cotchery ever having controlled it, he needs to call it incomplete. Second, the GIF shows the replay to be a lot closer than it appeared on TV. On TV, it appeared to me to be a clean catch. On the replay, it's impossible to tell if Cotchery keeps his hands under the ball and the ball away from the ground as he's being tackled. By the rules, an inconclusive replay means the call on the field stands.
Carolina had plenty of other chances to win the game. Norwood's 61 yard punt return is entirely the fault of the coverage team; the returner never makes any hint of calling for a fair catch. There were lots of other plays that Carolina did not make. So, while the controversial incomplete was a fairly major play in retrospect, it's not the sole reason Carolina lost, nor is it evidence of a conspiracy for Denver. The latter meme needs to die; it's not the officials could have predicted that Denver would score a defensive TD after a failed run attempt, a missed blocking assignment by a wide receiver on an All Pro linebacker, and a poor read by the QB.
Carolina had plenty of other chances to win the game. Norwood's 61 yard punt return is entirely the fault of the coverage team; the returner never makes any hint of calling for a fair catch. There were lots of other plays that Carolina did not make. So, while the controversial incomplete was a fairly major play in retrospect, it's not the sole reason Carolina lost, nor is it evidence of a conspiracy for Denver. The latter meme needs to die; it's not the officials could have predicted that Denver would score a defensive TD after a failed run attempt, a missed blocking assignment by a wide receiver on an All Pro linebacker, and a poor read by the QB.
Seems like Danny Amendola would be an ideal FA to pursue for Carolina: a sure-handed possession receiver who can get open from the slot
The thing to remember about that call in real time is that the catch rules say that if the referee is at all unsure, it should be ruled an incomplete.
Don Schula strikes me as the kind of prick who gets a perverse thrill when his kid doesn't live up to his lofty standards.