SOSH Running Dogs

Harry Agganis

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drleather2001 said:
What's the best off-season way to get ready for next running season?   I really would like to give BQ'ing a shot next fall, so I know I need to maintain at least 20 miles/week in actual running through February, but should I just worry about long slow runs, or do middle distances, or speed work?  Weight training?  Diet?
 
Should the off season include downtime to avoid burnout?
 
This may work for you
http://www.halhigdon.com/training/51268/Spring-Running-Training-Program
It's a 12 week schedule meant to get you ready or keep you sharp before commencing an 18 week Marathon Training schedule.
I like Higdon's plans. I'm using his advanced 1 marathon plan to prepare for The RnR in New Orleans at the end of February.
 

BroodsSexton

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Feb 4, 2006
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I hit up the expo this morning at the Javits Center. Two good pointers I got from some friends who have run this race a few times:  (1) Bring cardboard to sit on at the starting line.  Fort Hamilton (the staging area) can get muddy and there are never enough places to sit; and (2) Wear throwaway shoes, for the same reason, and change into your running shoes just before the race. Not good to run in muddy shoes. 
 
I'm looking forward to the run and want to give myself a shot at breaking 4:00.  My plan is to target the first 8 miles at 9:30.  The second 8 miles at 9:00.  I'm pretty sure I'll be there for that.  For the last ten, my plan is to dial it back to 9:15 for miles 17-21, and then -- if I have gas in the tank -- aim for 9:00 miles at the end.  
 
I'll be slugging down a packet of UCAN half an hour before, fueling with GU shots at miles 3 / 8 / 13 / 18 / 23, and carrying the Honey Stingers for the in between miles.  I plan to run with a water belt, but basically to use the course water stations as needed. 
 
Any last minute suggestions?  I ended up running 9 miles last weekend, and haven't run this week.  Was thinking I'd go out for 4 miles or so tomorrow, just to stay loose.  But I feel good and relaxed and don't want to mess with myself too much.
 

Leather

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Jul 18, 2005
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Go for a 2 mile slow jog tonight to keep loose.  Do nothing tomorrow.  Eat lots of pasta tonight, eat a regular dinner tomorrow.  Stretch a lot before you go to bed tomorrow. Sip water all day tomorrow.  Have a beer or two if it will help you sleep.
 
That's about it.  
 

BroodsSexton

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So I didn't break 4:00--I had a slow start in the pack because I had under paced myself for placement--but even still I would have been a few minutes short. But I did keep it under 4:10, which left me pretty stoked. no major cramping or pain, and the energy along the course was great.

Thanks for all the help. You guys got me through. I used the UCAN, fueled well, and had a plan of attack that worked well. I think I may hang up the shoes for a few more years though...short runs only.
 

knuck

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Apr 15, 2010
148
Austin, TX
Does anyone have any experience with a Ragnar or C2C race? My wife and I are considering joining a team for the Ragnar in Austin in April.

Everything I've read makes it sound like a great time, but I don't know anyone personally who has participated, just friends-of-a-friend types so I haven't ever gotten any first-hand feedback.

Thanks!
 

Spelunker

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Jul 17, 2005
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I've done Reach the Beach 5 or 6 times, across NH and MA; it's functionally the same thing (and now legally). Happy to answer any questions you have.
 

sass a thon

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Jul 20, 2005
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Does anyone have any experience with a Ragnar or C2C race? My wife and I are considering joining a team for the Ragnar in Austin in April.

Everything I've read makes it sound like a great time, but I don't know anyone personally who has participated, just friends-of-a-friend types so I haven't ever gotten any first-hand feedback.

Thanks!
Are these people you like? Can you spend a day in a van with them without wanting to strangle them? If so, absolutely do it. I did Hood to Coast in 2013 and 2014 and it's the best thing I've ever done. Such an awesome experience.
 

knuck

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Apr 15, 2010
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I've done Reach the Beach 5 or 6 times, across NH and MA; it's functionally the same thing (and now legally). Happy to answer any questions you have.
A couple of questions. Did you run it with people you knew? Did you do anything specific training wise? I'm not sure that the total distance is too much, as much as it is the run/sit/sleep in a van/run/repeat aspect that seems challenging.

I guess kind a personal recap of your various experiences, good, bad, annoying, etc would be great.

My wife and I are trying to find a running club here to meet some new people and find a new group of runners, so unfortunately we won't know anyone we do it with that well. We have till I think the new year to make a commitment to a group that's willing to take us, so we are going to do some group runs to see how we mesh with them.
 

Spelunker

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It's definitely a great way to get to know people well if you don't, as you're awfully close for ~30 hours.

I've done all of them with a running club at work. The first time we did it it was one team, so I knew everyone really well, but it's ranged from this last NH where we ran 3 teams (6 vans) and I had a lot of people I didn't really know well at all, to years where we ran 7 teams / 13 vans, and it was half the company there.

A lot of the time I've been with at least one person I know really well, but often at least a few that I may know a bit, or know of, but not personally. A lot of it comes down to personality: super uptight people aren't going to do well with the small annoyances that can pop up 20 hours in when no one has slept and they can't find their wet wipes. But if people are chill, that's not a problem, and you'll likely end up with pretty tight bonds driven by the ridiculousness of the entire thing.

You're spot on with the distance not being the issue: if you're trained for a half, that's basically the base that you need. Generally, though, we'd do hills at least once a week, because the NH RTB course is super hilly. I'm not a huge fan of double sessions in a day- I find it causes me more grief than benefit- but it's something to consider to work in once a week or so, to get used to running on tired legs (or, perhaps, a night/morning session). It's a lot harder than a half, as by that 3rd leg you can be a bit blown out, but a lot of depends on the legs you get. Some races have variance from sets that are ~22 miles of very hard/hilly legs, down to ones that are ~14 miles of easy trots.

Really though, the hardest part is coordination and logistics. It gets surprisingly and awfully hard to manage everyone's shit in a van (oh, also, rent a van. I always feel really bad for people who do this in SUVs or something. 6-7 people take up a lot of room). Staying on top of trash ends up being big.

I think the single best tip I ever got was to have everything I need for each specific leg in a numbered gallon ziplock bag so I don't have to think about it when I'm frantically trying to get ready so I have time to get to a porta potty and actually be at the handoff when the runner comes in. Not being able to find something in the van is the worst (hence why managing garbage/clutter is key). Have separate ziplock bag(s) for toiletries (deodorant, wet naps, etc) in a grab bag along with anything else you may need on hand that you can keep closer to you, while the rest of your stuff is in the back.

Oh, also: get a Stick. Use your Stick. Love your Stick.
 

Spelunker

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It's definitely a great way to get to know people well if you don't, as you're awfully close for ~30 hours.

I've done all of them with a running club at work. The first time we did it it was one team, so I knew everyone really well, but it's ranged from this last NH where we ran 3 teams (6 vans) and I had a lot of people I didn't really know well at all, to years where we ran 7 teams / 13 vans, and it was half the company there.

A lot of the time I've been with at least one person I know really well, but often at least a few that I may know a bit, or know of, but not personally. A lot of it comes down to personality: super uptight people aren't going to do well with the small annoyances that can pop up 20 hours in when no one has slept and they can't find their wet wipes. But if people are chill, that's not a problem, and you'll likely end up with pretty tight bonds driven by the ridiculousness of the entire thing.

You're spot on with the distance not being the issue: if you're trained for a half, that's basically the base that you need. Generally, though, we'd do hills at least once a week, because the NH RTB course is super hilly. I'm not a huge fan of double sessions in a day- I find it causes me more grief than benefit- but it's something to consider to work in once a week or so, to get used to running on tired legs (or, perhaps, a night/morning session). It's a lot harder than a half, as by that 3rd leg you can be a bit blown out, but a lot of depends on the legs you get. Some races have variance from sets that are ~22 miles of very hard/hilly legs, down to ones that are ~14 miles of easy trots.

Really though, the hardest part is coordination and logistics. It gets surprisingly and awfully hard to manage everyone's shit in a van (oh, also, rent a van. I always feel really bad for people who do this in SUVs or something. 6-7 people take up a lot of room). Staying on top of trash ends up being big.

I think the single best tip I ever got was to have everything I need for each specific leg in a numbered gallon ziplock bag so I don't have to think about it when I'm frantically trying to get ready so I have time to get to a porta potty and actually be at the handoff when the runner comes in. Not being able to find something in the van is the worst (hence why managing garbage/clutter is key). Have separate ziplock bag(s) for toiletries (deodorant, wet naps, etc) in a grab bag along with anything else you may need on hand that you can keep closer to you, while the rest of your stuff is in the back.

Oh, also: get a Stick. Use your Stick. Love your Stick.
 

rbeaud

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Jul 15, 2005
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Orange, CT
Let's see if I can handle multiquote...

I came in at 3:32:54. A 7:06 cushion. I am thinking 2017 is looking pretty good
Nice HA, hope to see you there in 2017!

PR at the Newburyport Half Marathon : 1:41:04
Sweet, well done.

So I didn't break 4:00--I had a slow start in the pack because I had under paced myself for placement--but even still I would have been a few minutes short. But I did keep it under 4:10, which left me pretty stoked. no major cramping or pain, and the energy along the course was great.

Thanks for all the help. You guys got me through. I used the UCAN, fueled well, and had a plan of attack that worked well. I think I may hang up the shoes for a few more years though...short runs only.
Impressive considering you didn't get the full Monty of training. This gets easier if you follow the whole program. Though, I will say marathon training is one heck of a commitment. With the 4th one in just over a year, I'm a little tired just thinking of all those long runs coming up...well actually they are here. I didn't care for Higdon and found one from Cool Runnings, 14M in the 2nd week. It's ok, I prefer being able to walk after the race is over.

Now if my wife would stop signing me up for 5k races, I can rest the Achilles.
 

pedro1918

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I've run the Cape Cod Ragnar. I did with 6 runners instead of 12. I think if you're doing it with experienced runners, 6 is the way to go. There is just so much sitting around with a 12 person team. If you have 12 participants, run two teams. Of course you might not want to run that far. I think I was around 35-36 total miles.

I really enjoyed it. I was good friends with 2 of the guys, had met another once and two were brand new to me. We are all good friends now.

I'll echo the organization in the van point. Keeping track of your stuff and getting rid of trash is a must. Also, there was a premium on charging portals. There were 6 phones and 6 watches in need of charging. Luckily, one of the guys brought an adapter.

I'm running Philly on Sunday. I'm shooting to break 3:40. We'll see how it goes.
 

fiskful of dollars

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Any of you guys do interval/track work? I'm training for my first marathon in March (Shamrock in Va. Beach). I'm a triathlete primarily and have run a few dozen half marathons but never a full. Trying to get faster and qualify for Boston. I started my training last week with a modified Higdon plan. The interval workouts don't specify recovery times or distances. For instance today I did 6x800M at 6 min/mi pace (1mi warm up/1mi warm down). I walked about 100-150 meters and checked my HR before starting agin. I haven't done much speed work and was just curious what you guys think.
Hope everyone's training is going well!
 

pedro1918

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fiskful of dollars said:
Any of you guys do interval/track work? I'm training for my first marathon in March (Shamrock in Va. Beach). I'm a triathlete primarily and have run a few dozen half marathons but never a full. Trying to get faster and qualify for Boston. I started my training last week with a modified Higdon plan. The interval workouts don't specify recovery times or distances. For instance today I did 6x800M at 6 min/mi pace (1mi warm up/1mi warm down). I walked about 100-150 meters and checked my HR before starting agin. I haven't done much speed work and was just curious what you guys think.
Hope everyone's training is going well!
Pretty close to what you do. I am a Yasso's 800's guy. I usually do slow jog/walk of one lap in between my 800s. I do the same 1 mile warm up/cool down.


So my Philly was kind of a disaster. My tendons/ligaments or something behind my left knee started twitching and feeling a bit rubbery around mile 17. It was weird. I fought through it for a while but then my right knee started started to hurt. Over compensating I guess. There was some limping going on, and the strong head wind along the Schuylkill didn't help, but I managed to finish at 4:01 exactly. About 20 minutes more than I was shooting for, but hey, it's another marathon completed.

Rest for a bit and then find another challenge.
 

sass a thon

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So my Philly was kind of a disaster. My tendons/ligaments or something behind my left knee started twitching and feeling a bit rubbery around mile 17. It was weird. I fought through it for a while but then my right knee started started to hurt. Over compensating I guess. There was some limping going on, and the strong head wind along the Schuylkill didn't help, but I managed to finish at 4:01 exactly. About 20 minutes more than I was shooting for, but hey, it's another marathon completed.

Rest for a bit and then find another challenge.
Congrats on finishing 26.2. I ran the half in Philly on Sunday and the wind that day was a bitch.
 

rbeaud

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Jul 15, 2005
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Any of you guys do interval/track work? I'm training for my first marathon in March (Shamrock in Va. Beach). I'm a triathlete primarily and have run a few dozen half marathons but never a full. Trying to get faster and qualify for Boston. I started my training last week with a modified Higdon plan. The interval workouts don't specify recovery times or distances. For instance today I did 6x800M at 6 min/mi pace (1mi warm up/1mi warm down). I walked about 100-150 meters and checked my HR before starting agin. I haven't done much speed work and was just curious what you guys think.
Hope everyone's training is going well!
For my training, 800s /1600s are at tempo interval pace which is about the same as 10k pace. For reference, an interval pace of 6:00 mpm is appropriate for someone that runs a 5k in 18:00min. Breaks are 1/2 total interval time (3:00 for your workout pace). I like the McMillan pace calculator for workout paces and for helping to identify achievable paces when encountering new distances. Personally, I gave up on the Higdon plan for Wineglass. I wound up simply running the miles instead of workouts. This go around, I'm using one from Coolrunnings. I wanted to peak around 60 mpw for the next marathon in anticipation of using the Pfitzinger 18/70 for Boston 2017.

Good luck with the training. I'll also be at the Shamrock Marathon, so we can bemoan training during the upcoming frigid weeks together!
 

SydneySox

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Sep 19, 2005
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Are you guys all quiet because there aren't any runs in the US in winter? ;)

Question - when you're running up stairs, what's the best workout? Taking every step, or taking them two at a time?
 

fiskful of dollars

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I'm training for the Shamrock Marathon in Virginia Beach. 10 today, 20 tomorrow. At least the snow is melting so I can get off the treadmill. Ran outside yesterday and it was awesome.
There's a reason they don't do stair races anymore...people were collapsing and dying in droves.

If you're just doing short runs or "stadiums", I like single steps at high cadence. That can help your turnover and increase cadence on longer runs.
 

Marceline

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I've got a half marathon coming up in March. I'm also looking to run around 1:35. Been doing tempo runs around 7:00 pace and training at around 40 miles/week.

I also have the Krispy Kreme Challenge coming up in a couple weeks. Hoping to finish under 40 minutes.
 

MB's Hidden Ball

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Question - when you're running up stairs, what's the best workout? Taking every step, or taking them two at a time?
If I come across a staircase on a run and I’m trying to maintain a decent pace I’ll usually take them two at a time because it’ll get me up the stairs and back onto my established pace more quickly, but if I am running stairs as a deliberate part of my workout I’ll hit each stair individually.

I rowed crew in college and twice a week we’d run to Georgetown after practice to run ten-to-twelve sets of the Exorcist stairs; my freshman year I always did two-at-a-time but my sophomore year we got a new coach who insisted that we take each stair individually. I think our coach’s view was that it would increase leg speed/turnover (which is what fiskful mentioned above), but I always thought that it was definitely more challenging—and faster—to run two-at-a-time. So now when I run stairs deliberately I’ll take them one at a time, but it is more out of habit than out of any belief that it’s a better workout.
 

SydneySox

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Thanks. Your advice mirrors a lot of the conversation I've had.

I have that trail-half coming up at the start of May in the Blue Mountains and a half in Canberra at the start of April and I'm running now, basically doing a lot of fucking hills and a lot of fucking staircases to try and get relatively accustomed to running up a lot of steep, long inclines during the run. Through a lot of exploration of Sydney I've managed to map a route that has tonnes of hills or stairs I can criss-cross to without taking the easy options of going downhill all the time.
 

moondog80

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Sep 20, 2005
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Disney half marathon in April. Had my fist 10 mile run in over a year on Sunday, ran 7:33 pace -- legs were getting tired at the end but I felt good about doing it with moderate but not high effort. Then yesterday my first speed workout in a while -- farltek style of 1:00 high effort, 1:00 recovery jog, 10 times. Felt like I was going die after the first 4 but I made it through, even if my last few were a bit slower than the first few.

Never run 13.1 miles before, race or otherwise. A few years ago I did a 12.1 mile run at a 7:15 pace, hoping that a few months training specifically for a half can get me below 1:30 in a race. It'll be one speed workout plus one 10+ mile run a week from here on out, maxing out around 15 or 16 miles, and some mile repeats that I will be dreading. Hopefully no major weather events from here on out...
 

jcd0805

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Disney half marathon in April. Had my fist 10 mile run in over a year on Sunday, ran 7:33 pace -- legs were getting tired at the end but I felt good about
My friend I run 5k's with is doing it too. She has never run more than 5k and just assumes it's going to be just like that, only longer. I'm thinking it's going to be pretty tough running that whole but maybe she can walk/run and be able to finish in the allotted time?
 

moondog80

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My friend I run 5k's with is doing it too. She has never run more than 5k and just assumes it's going to be just like that, only longer. I'm thinking it's going to be pretty tough running that whole but maybe she can walk/run and be able to finish in the allotted time?

Never raced more than a 5K or never run more than a 5K? If it's the latter, she's in for some trouble if she doesn't up her mileage. The only requirement is a 16 minute pace, which is only barely faster than walking, so she still might be able to finish it, but she's going to be in for a shock if she wants to run the whole thing without anything more than a 5K on her regimen.
 

SydneySox

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My friend I run 5k's with is doing it too. She has never run more than 5k and just assumes it's going to be just like that, only longer. I'm thinking it's going to be pretty tough running that whole but maybe she can walk/run and be able to finish in the allotted time?
Yeah, she's going to want to do more than 5k training runs for a half. You don't train for a half by running a half but you should train by running... like, she's going to want to be getting out a 10k every weekend in March on top of the other stuff.

If you aren't too worried about time or running the whole time you can definitely get through it with some breaks but even then, 5k is less than a quarter of the whole race... if she's stopping because she's rooted at the end of 5 she needs to think about what she's going to feel like at 15, let alone 10. That 16+ is the hard bit.

edit: That is, to say, you don't need to have run 21km before to do a half, but you should be comfortable knowing you could jog 10km without effort.
 

SydneySox

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Hey... how much of the strength/cross training do you guys do when training? I don't do any and wonder how much I should be doing. I also don't and won't pay for a gym membership.
 

moondog80

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Hey... how much of the strength/cross training do you guys do when training? I don't do any and wonder how much I should be doing. I also don't and won't pay for a gym membership.
I do none. I'm sure it would help, but with two school age kids there's only so much time I can devote to training. I may start doing some sit-ups and push-ups before bed a few times a week, but nothing more than that.
 

Harry Agganis

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As to winter races I am doing the New Orleans RnR on Feb 28th.

As to speed work and intervals and such. I've been running a McMillan plan. 16 weeks Thursday is speed day. I've done 400s up to 8 reps. 800s lots of them up to 10 Reps. 1200 s 5. Miles up to 6 at somewhat less than tempo.

I'll be finishing my 20 s this Sunday for a total of 5.

The Plan also uses Fast Finish Long runs on alternate Sundays. 14, 16, 18 with the second half at marathon pace or better going faster each mile. Those are absolute killers. Trying to find a new level.

However this plan emphasizes Recovery. I've gone from 6-7 days a week to 4. Easy (60 minutes), Off, Speed( 20 Minute WU/CU 60 minutes Speed work), Off, Easy (30 Minutes), Long Varying 2- 3 Hours), Off.
 

Marceline

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As to winter races I am doing the New Orleans RnR on Feb 28th.

As to speed work and intervals and such. I've been running a McMillan plan. 16 weeks Thursday is speed day. I've done 400s up to 8 reps. 800s lots of them up to 10 Reps. 1200 s 5. Miles up to 6 at somewhat less than tempo.

I'll be finishing my 20 s this Sunday for a total of 5.

The Plan also uses Fast Finish Long runs on alternate Sundays. 14, 16, 18 with the second half at marathon pace or better going faster each mile. Those are absolute killers. Trying to find a new level.

However this plan emphasizes Recovery. I've gone from 6-7 days a week to 4. Easy (60 minutes), Off, Speed( 20 Minute WU/CU 60 minutes Speed work), Off, Easy (30 Minutes), Long Varying 2- 3 Hours), Off.
What's your goal? I'm assuming this is a full marathon?
 

fiskful of dollars

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I guess I'm the outlier of the bunch. I do some cross-training. Mainly core stuff. I do P90-X Core Synergistics on my light running day. I also do planks, pushups and crunches (or P90-X Ab-ripper) on my tempo run days. Nothing on my long-run days except the run and some foam rolling/stretching. On my non-run/"off" day, I alternate a yoga workout and a pretty hard leg workout. If I don't stay on top of my weight/core training, I find my form suffers.

In the spring, I'll begin in-season triathlon training so I'll curtail the weights to almost nil..and my running form will undoubtedly suffer but I just don't have the mojo to swim, bike, run AND weight train. I should mention that I'm a huge pussy in general.

BTW, I literally just read about the "fast-finish long runs" workout and was gonna try it out when I saw Harry's post about them. Is there anything that SOSH doesn't know? I tried it yesterday on a brisk 10 miler...it was hard but felt really good. I'm definitely gonna incorporate a few of these into my training plan. Did 12 today at 13.1 race pace and felt pretty good. Trying for a BQ in March. We'll see...
 

Marceline

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I really liked the fast finish long run idea. I've started doing them every other week.

I was going to do 12-13 this weekend... Decided to sign up for a 10 mile race, so I'll do 2 or 3 warm up miles and use the race as my "fast finish". Training for the New Bedford Half on March 20th and hoping for a PR.
 

fiskful of dollars

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Fast finish runs are cool but man they hurt. Did 10 at 7:45 per mile yesterday and just concentrated on maintaining an even pace throughout. Trying for a 3:30 at Shamrock next month. It's my first 26.2 so I'm not sure what to expect. I'm doing my last (of three) 20 milers tomorrow. Hope everyone's training is going well!
 

Leather

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Strength training for your core is a huge help for long distances.

That's not to say I'm very disciplined at doing it(I'm trying), but even my limited improvements have yielded noticeable results in terms of just keeping my form correct, and not having my hips go a little off kilter toward the end of longer runs.

All you need is a kettle bell and do some swings through your legs. Works the lower back and abs.
 

fiskful of dollars

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Tore my fucking meniscus last Friday. Pretty large complex tear but no impingement. Trying to rehab in time for my March 20th marathon. Ran 4 yesterday and 8 this morning with moderate pain but no swelling.
I'm considering a steroid injection or maybe a PRP injection before the race. I know what my ortho colleagues think (and the opinions are varied) but was wondering if any runners here have had any experience with steroids/PRP injections.
Hope everyone's race season is shaping up.
 

One Red Seat

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Hopefully this is the right place to ask this question....

My 8th grade son needs some good running shoes and track spikes. We have a Fleet Feet store local but he doesn't care for it. We are looking for an online option. He is a very good runner......went to Nationals last year as a 7th grader. Sub 5 minute mile and that is the event he typically runs....so, I want to get him some good shoes. Any suggestions for online sites and/or specific shoe recommendations would be greatly appreciated. Thank you