NFL officiating

Hoodie Sleeves · Dec 1, 2015

TheoShmeo said:
Said differently, if the refs indeed affirmatively decide to let them play in the SB, why isn't that standard applied to other games? I never understood that, nor have I ever understood the swallow the whistles thing in OT hockey, to the extent it still applies.
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The problem with "letting them play" is that the players very quickly realize that they're getting away with things they shouldn't and the offending actions start escalating - the line of what's legal gets pushed back - the games get very chippy, and then usually end up one of two ways - getting decided on a penalty for something that's been 'ok' for the last 25 minutes, or with players taking swings at each other (like the end of the superbowl last year).

The Pat Chung holding call was a good example of this - it was a pretty clear hold and should have been called - the problem is that the refs mostly swallowed their whistles and let defenders play - and that had been "ok" for most of the game - he just did it in the wrong place, or too visible to a referee - and then they went back to what they were doing before and basically let Talib tackle a crossing WR in OT. Not enforcing the rules doesn't work - the players will force you to enforce something at some point - and it's going to be inconsistent.

On the other hand, in some games you'll see 3 or 4 calls early in the game, and the rest of the game will be pretty clean - the players quickly figure out what the constraints are for the environment they're working in.

86spike · Dec 1, 2015

DrewDawg said:
Two things:

1--He doesn't have to touch his head. It's "head or neck area".
2--Why he jumped doesn't mean anything.

1. I can't 100% see this from the camera angle, but I think the only parts of Barrett and Brady that touched were: (a) Barrett's chest to Brady's back; and (b) Barrett's right arm to Brady's right shoulder. Once airborne, Barrett basically spooned Brady as he knocked him to the turf. I really don't think he touched his head of neck.

2. Sure, but I'm talking about why I think the ref didn't flag it. I think the combination of seeing why Barrett went up and the way their bodies collided is why it was not a flag. (again, if it had been flagged, I wouldn't have been shocked either - very borderline)

joe dokes · Dec 1, 2015

I'm sure there's a downside -- other than it costing the NFL money -- but would adding a couple of additional officials (there are 7 now) make a difference in that it would reduce each one's area of responsibility? At a minimum, maybe take the timing responsibilities away from the two that currently have it (i think one for game clock and one for play clock), and give it to a new position?

86spike · Dec 1, 2015

joe dokes said:
I'm sure there's a downside -- other than it costing the NFL money -- but would adding a couple of additional officials (there are 7 now) make a difference in that it would reduce each one's area of responsibility? At a minimum, maybe take the timing responsibilities away from the two that currently have it (i think one for game clock and one for play clock), and give it to a new position?

I like that idea too. Make the crews bigger and have a few refs who are assigned to specific types of calls. Have one who watches the play of the OL and DL and flags for holding. Have another two on either side of the field who are in charge of watching the DBs and WRs. Maybe they just need to spread out the responsibilities a bit more and give each official less to think about in the heat of the action.

Sadly since the refs are in a union, that change would need to be collectively bargained and the NFL would likely balk at giving the union anything nice like more employees without trying to exact a price on their end. Ugh.

Smiling Joe Hesketh · Dec 1, 2015

If they need the cash for more refs, the league could sell Bill Polian's organs for profit. I'd be all for that.

86spike · Dec 1, 2015

BaseballJones said:
This is what is so frustrating. There is no way Gronk's actions are "worse" than Thomas'. That is, Gronk's is not any more obviously OPI than Thomas'. So many calls in football are judgment calls that are bang-bang plays, and the inconsistency is infuriating. Of course, it doesn't help that seemingly every single call in the 4th quarter and OT went against the Patriots.

Not counting non-calls (like the non-holding call on the game-winning TD, the non-holding call on the pass to LaFell in OT, etc.), here were all the penalties in the 4th quarter and OT:

NE 1-10, NE 20 - (12:34) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete deep right to S.Chandler (B.Marshall). PENALTY on NE-S.Vollmer, Illegal Use of Hands, 10 yards, enforced at NE 20 - No Play.

NE 3-11, NE 19 - (11:40) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass deep left to K.Martin to DEN 30 for 51 yards (C.Harris) [V.Miller]. PENALTY on NE-T.Jackson, Offensive Holding, 9 yards, enforced at NE 19 - No Play.

NE 3rd and 5, NE 25 - (5:22) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass short right to R.Gronkowski pushed ob at NE 35 for 10 yards (D.Bruton). PENALTY on NE-R.Gronkowski, Offensive Pass Interference, 10 yards, enforced at NE 25 - No Play.

Den 2-7, NE 7 - (1:25) (Shotgun) B.Osweiler sacked at NE 15 for -8 yards (A.Branch). PENALTY on NE-P.Chung, Defensive Holding, 3 yards, enforced at NE 7 - No Play.

NE 1-10, Den 48 - (0:15) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete short middle to C.Harper (D.Bruton). PENALTY on DEN-C.Harris, Defensive Holding, 5 yards, enforced at DEN 48 - No Play.

So 5 penalties called in the 4th quarter and OT. Four of them went against NE. The Vollmer play was legit. But that same play was made against Chandler Jones by a Denver OLineman and it wasn't called. The holding call on Jackson on the bomb to Martin was so ricky-tack even Collinsworth was like....eh....I don't know about that. And again, Vernon Davis had a MUCH more egregious hold against McCourty on the game-winning TD run that was not called. The Gronk OPI was a joke. The Chung hold was a joke. The hold on Harris was obvious.

So the weight of the calls was clearly against NE in huge spots. The Gronk call or the Jackson call or the Chung call - any of those doesn't get called and the Pats almost certainly win the game. I don't necessarily mind them being called, but then you HAVE to call the same thing on Denver. Which they really didn't.

I do not say this to minimize your point that big calls went against NE, but I could go through the game tape and find a long list of things that happened to Denver players that were not flagged too. Von Miller got held 5+ times in the first half and never got the benefit of a flag.

Again, not to diminish your point that the big calls hurt NE, but it's worth noting that the bad calls and non-calls happen all game long and to both sides.

Referees are just plain bad.

Hoodie Sleeves · Dec 1, 2015

86spike said:
I like that idea too. Make the crews bigger and have a few refs who are assigned to specific types of calls. Have one who watches the play of the OL and DL and flags for holding. Have another two on either side of the field who are in charge of watching the DBs and WRs. Maybe they just need to spread out the responsibilities a bit more and give each official less to think about in the heat of the action.

In my opinion, one of the largest drivers for bad DPI calls is that the DBs/WRs are so much faster than the referees, and on deep passes they're running 10 yards behind the players - they can't see the hands, they can't see the ball, etc. They're just making calls based on whether or not guys fall down, or start making flag motions half the time.

86spike · Dec 1, 2015

Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
If they need the cash for more refs, the league could sell Bill Polian's organs for profit. I'd be all for that.

Not much market value in septuagenarian gin-infused livers that smell like ashtrays, though.

Jed Zeppelin · Dec 1, 2015

I'd be afraid that more refs would just lead to more flags.

Smiling Joe Hesketh · Dec 1, 2015

Spike, I think the frustration spills from the fact that the Pats' penalties all came on key plays of the game, while on the key plays of the game for Denver the obvious penalties (OL with hands in Jones' face, Gronk OPI, McCourty being blatantly held 3 inches from the ref on the winning TD) went uncalled.

I can deal with shitty refs calling shitty plays on both teams, as we saw in the Pats-Bills game. I can't accept what happened on Sunday night.

Smiling Joe Hesketh · Dec 1, 2015

86spike said:
Not much market value in septuagenarian gin-infused livers that smell like ashtrays, though.

I was thinking of the fetish market, really.

OCST · Dec 1, 2015

Hoodie Sleeves said:
In my opinion, one of the largest drivers for bad DPI calls is that the DBs/WRs are so much faster than the referees, and on deep passes they're running 10 yards behind the players - they can't see the hands, they can't see the ball, etc. They're just making calls based on whether or not guys fall down, or start making flag motions half the time.

This is a great point.

There are tons of FBS WRs/DBs who never get a shot in the NFL... recruit them as officials, they can keep up

86spike · Dec 1, 2015

Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
Spike, I think the frustration spills from the fact that the Pats' penalties all came on key plays of the game, while on the key plays of the game for Denver the obvious penalties (OL with hands in Jones' face, Gronk OPI, McCourty being blatantly held 3 inches from the ref on the winning TD) went uncalled.

I can deal with shitty refs calling shitty plays on both teams, as we saw in the Pats-Bills game. I can't accept what happened on Sunday night.

Of course it does. I have been in the same position many times in the past and felt the same anger when my team got screwed. I think every NFL fan understands.

Smiling Joe Hesketh · Dec 1, 2015

OilCanShotTupac said:
This is a great point.

There are tons of FBS WRs/DBs who never get a shot in the NFL... recruit them as officials, they can keep up

Rodney Harrison said for years when he was playing that he wanted to be an official and ref after he retired, for more or less this exact reason.

BaseballJones · Dec 1, 2015

86spike said:
I do not say this to minimize your point that big calls went against NE, but I could go through the game tape and find a long list of things that happened to Denver players that were not flagged too. Von Miller got held 5+ times in the first half and never got the benefit of a flag.

I agree that Miller got held a lot. So did Jones. Happens every frigging game a dozen times with Chandler.

86spike said:
Again, not to diminish your point that the big calls hurt NE, but it's worth noting that the bad calls and non-calls happen all game long and to both sides.

I hear you, but SJH's point is valid.

86spike said:
Referees are just plain bad.

I will say this: Reffing an NFL game has to be brutally difficult. The speed of the game, the amount of contact that takes place, is just so hard to make accurate and consistent calls over the course of 60 minutes. So I give them some leeway. But man, Sunday night was brutal.

wiffleballhero · Dec 1, 2015

soxhop411 said:
Why not just suspend the crew NFL? if they made so many mistakes that it warranted a reassignment, then just suspend them...

I think every team (or its fans) justifiably thinks the league is out to screw them, but this reassignment is rather amazing. If you are reassigning a crew for poor performance, don't you send them to a 1 pm garbage time game instead of the 4:25 national broadcast with the Super Bowl champ, the #1 AFC seed and the team every team circles on their schedule, playing a meaningful game vs. a team (Philly) in need of a win to stay viable for a playoff spot?

Balt-Mia
SF-CHI
Jack-Tenn

All obviously better games for a demotion.

DJnVa · Dec 1, 2015

Well, NE is the biggest favorite on the board. Maybe the NFL sees it as a garbage game.

Mooch · Dec 1, 2015

This week's SI regional cover should be sent to the league office: http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/12/01/denver-broncos-brock-osweiler-sports-illustrated-cover

Of course there was no flag for holding here.

PedroKsBambino · Dec 1, 2015

86spike said:
I do not say this to minimize your point that big calls went against NE, but I could go through the game tape and find a long list of things that happened to Denver players that were not flagged too. Von Miller got held 5+ times in the first half and never got the benefit of a flag.

Again, not to diminish your point that the big calls hurt NE, but it's worth noting that the bad calls and non-calls happen all game long and to both sides.

Referees are just plain bad.

Yes, I agree that refs are bad and do not think they have a systemic bias for or against any team. They didn't 'try' to help or hurt either team Sunday, imo.

In any one game, the balance of 'impactful bad calls' can favor any team. I think people here feel (and I agree) that in this particular game, they impacted the Pats in a materially negative way. That doesn't suggest calls weren't blown both ways, and it doesn't suggest that Pats won't be the beneficiary of it in some other game. Ultimately it is like the wind blowing at the wrong time---unpredictable and real, and also impactful. But not borne of bias or ill-intent.

accidentalsuccess · Dec 1, 2015

One thing that hasn't helped is that the default replay speed seems to be slow-mo for the TV networks. That combined with high definition tvs allow us to see just how lame these hand-check PI fouls are. We can see nearly everything and a lot of stuff looks really bad in super-slow-mo (call or non-call, depending on the play). I think adding two or three refs downfield that look for PI and out-of-bounds would be great but you do have to worry about crowding the field too much when you get closer to the red zone. I know how tough it is to ref at a much lower level and I can't imagine how hard it is to do this job. That said, the league has to do something, right? Oh yah, they don't even have the $$ for goal line cams so forget getting more zebras.

86spike · Dec 1, 2015

PedroKsBambino said:
Yes, I agree that refs are bad and do not think they have a systemic bias for or against any team. They didn't 'try' to help or hurt either team Sunday, imo.

In any one game, the balance of 'impactful bad calls' can favor any team. I think people here feel (and I agree) that in this particular game, they impacted the Pats in a materially negative way. That doesn't suggest calls weren't blown both ways, and it doesn't suggest that Pats won't be the beneficiary of it in some other game. Ultimately it is like the wind blowing at the wrong time---unpredictable and real, and also impactful. But not borne of bias or ill-intent.

Yup. I am here to commiserate. We all get the zebra-striped shaft at some point.

Granite Sox · Dec 1, 2015

WayBackVazquez said:
You don't think he touched his head at all? I get that the replay angle doesn't show the contact there, but I don't think it's even scientifically possible that he didn't.

DrewDawg said:
Two things:

1--He doesn't have to touch his head. It's "head or neck area".
2--Why he jumped doesn't mean anything.

86spike said:
1. I can't 100% see this from the camera angle, but I think the only parts of Barrett and Brady that touched were: (a) Barrett's chest to Brady's back; and (b) Barrett's right arm to Brady's right shoulder. Once airborne, Barrett basically spooned Brady as he knocked him to the turf. I really don't think he touched his head of neck.

2. Sure, but I'm talking about why I think the ref didn't flag it. I think the combination of seeing why Barrett went up and the way their bodies collided is why it was not a flag. (again, if it had been flagged, I wouldn't have been shocked either - very borderline)

Good grief... I didn't even see this play live and it is quite easy to see that Barrett needlessly launched himself at Brady. I mean, he clearly leaves his feet and jumps up into Brady. There is virtually no way Barrett ever intended a form tackle between the 1 and the 2. Brady begins to turn as he is hit; this is the only reason it wasn't a helmut-to-helmut 90 degree splatterfest. Also defensible to say that Barret led with his helmut. This gets called as roughing 19/20 times each week in today's NFL.

Given you root for the laundry, I understand the rationalization. But from an officiating standpoint, that's embarrassing.

steveluck7 · Dec 1, 2015

DrewDawg said:
Back judge in picture: Greg Wilson (although profootballreference calls him Doug Wilson). After this game he was reassigned from his crew, because his crew's next game was the high profile Patriots-Colts game.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/10/14/nfl-reassigns-lions-seahawks-back-judge-away-from-sunday-night-football/

He's part of Tony Corrente's crew and but is back with his crew now. This weekend they were in Denver. Where he made a call in the end zone on Chung.

And i believe he is the one who threw the flag on Gronk's OPI. I might be mistaken but i recall an angle of some penalty where the back judge comes right into frame and throws his flag

E5 Yaz · Dec 1, 2015

Dick Pole Upside said:
Good grief... I didn't even see this play live and it is quite easy to see that Barrett needlessly launched himself at Brady. I mean, he clearly leaves his feet and jumps up into Brady. There is virtually no way Barrett ever intended a form tackle between the 1 and the 2. Brady begins to turn as he is hit; this is the only reason it wasn't a helmut-to-helmut 90 degree splatterfest. Also defensible to say that Barret led with his helmut. This gets called as roughing 19/20 times each week in today's NFL.

Given you root for the laundry, I understand the rationalization. But from an officiating standpoint, that's embarrassing.

Michaels and Collinsworth even expressed surprise no flag was thrown

DanoooME · Dec 1, 2015

Hoodie Sleeves said:
In my opinion, one of the largest drivers for bad DPI calls is that the DBs/WRs are so much faster than the referees, and on deep passes they're running 10 yards behind the players - they can't see the hands, they can't see the ball, etc. They're just making calls based on whether or not guys fall down, or start making flag motions half the time.

Well, the way to fix that is automatic unsportsmanlike conduct penalties for anyone making a motion for a flag. Then they'd get a flag like they asked for. But not the one they want. That would stop it in one quarter in week one.

But that would make too much sense.

E5 Yaz · Dec 1, 2015

Gronk has more OPI calls this season than 30 teams

dcmissle · Dec 1, 2015

E5 Yaz said:
Gronk has more OPI calls this season than 30 teams

I think this can be addressed effectively going forward. The sample size may be small, but the disparity is staggering.

We may have linked to the same article -- one triggered by a one-word tweet from Gronk, "agree", in response to a claim that he has been unfairly singled out.

Gronk is transcendent. Everyone knows him, and apart from an old bitter sob in NYC with a mic, almost everyone loves him.

I would shine a spotlight on this. There are limits to what he can say and do, and you don't want him in the complaining business. But this can be worked in other ways. It can be made too big to ignore on game telecasts.

djbayko · Dec 1, 2015

86spike said:
I like that idea too. Make the crews bigger and have a few refs who are assigned to specific types of calls. Have one who watches the play of the OL and DL and flags for holding. Have another two on either side of the field who are in charge of watching the DBs and WRs. Maybe they just need to spread out the responsibilities a bit more and give each official less to think about in the heat of the action.

Sadly since the refs are in a union, that change would need to be collectively bargained and the NFL would likely balk at giving the union anything nice like more employees without trying to exact a price on their end. Ugh.

The bolded is a good point. To further this, one would hope that behind closed doors, the league and refs are discussing the root causes of this issue and possible remedies. However, given the recent rocky relationship between the NFL and the union, I wonder if they are unable to be open and honest about their capabilities and limitations

amarshal2 · Dec 1, 2015

Jed Zeppelin said:
I'd be afraid that more refs would just lead to more flags.

Right. What we really want is consistency. I'm not sure more refs will lead to more consistency though it's certainly possible that ref coverage is a big drag on consistency. More likely, as Jed said, more refs will just equal more flags.

joe dokes · Dec 1, 2015

djbayko said:
The bolded is a good point. To further this, one would hope that behind closed doors, the league and refs are discussing the root causes of this issue and possible remedies. However, given the recent rocky relationship between the NFL and the union, I wonder if they are unable to be open and honest about their capabilities and limitations

It might be easier if the NFL top guy -- Blandino -- had ever been an official. I don't know whether such experience is sufficient or necessary for the job, but I'll bet the officials look at Blandino and aren't particularly encouraged.

soxfan121 · Dec 1, 2015

dcmissle said:
I think this can be addressed effectively going forward. The sample size may be small, but the disparity is staggering.

We may have linked to the same article -- one triggered by a one-word tweet from Gronk, "agree", in response to a claim that he has been unfairly singled out.

Gronk is transcendent. Everyone knows him, and apart from an old bitter sob in NYC with a mic, almost everyone loves him.

I would shine a spotlight on this. There are limits to what he can say and do, and you don't want him in the complaining business. But this can be worked in other ways. It can be made too big to ignore on game telecasts.

I don't think this a take based in reality.

86spike · Dec 1, 2015

DanoooME said:
Well, the way to fix that is automatic unsportsmanlike conduct penalties for anyone making a motion for a flag. Then they'd get a flag like they asked for. But not the one they want. That would stop it in one quarter in week one.

But that would make too much sense.

I would love that and it should extend to players yelling at the refs after plays.

I know you guys love his fire and grit, but Brady does a ton of barking at refs and had some moments Sunday night where I thought to myself "In the NBA that's a technical foul". He's not the only guy in the league who does it, obviously, but he's a good example.

I actually wonder if players who yell at the refs end up doing themselves a disservice when they get so riled up. The refs may not really like being ripped like that on national TV and might end up a little inclined to hang that player or team out to dry as a result.

86spike · Dec 1, 2015

Dick Pole Upside said:
Good grief... I didn't even see this play live and it is quite easy to see that Barrett needlessly launched himself at Brady. I mean, he clearly leaves his feet and jumps up into Brady. There is virtually no way Barrett ever intended a form tackle between the 1 and the 2. Brady begins to turn as he is hit; this is the only reason it wasn't a helmut-to-helmut 90 degree splatterfest. Also defensible to say that Barret led with his helmut. This gets called as roughing 19/20 times each week in today's NFL.

Given you root for the laundry, I understand the rationalization. But from an officiating standpoint, that's embarrassing.

But it wasn't helmet to helmet. Barrett may have led with his helmet, but his helmet never touched Brady. He never touched Brady's head or neck at all, hence there was no flag. I have said that a flag on that play would not have surprised me. But no flag makes sense to me too given the way the impact unfolded as the two went to the turf.

mandro ramtinez · Dec 1, 2015

86spike said:
But it wasn't helmet to helmet. Barrett may have led with his helmet, but his helmet never touched Brady. He never touched Brady's head or neck at all, hence there was no flag. I have said that a flag on that play would not have surprised me. But no flag makes sense to me too given the way the impact unfolded as the two went to the turf.

Rule 12 Section 2 Article 8(j) states that the defensive player will be guilty of an illegal launch "if a player illegally launches into a defenseless opponent. It is an illegal launch if a player (1) leaves both feet prior to contact to spring forward and upward into his opponent, and (2) uses any part of his helmet (including the top/crown and forehead/”hairline” parts) to initiate forcible contact against any part of his opponent’s body."

I have not seen a clear replay showing this but I would be surprised if Barrett did not make forcible contact with his helmet on some part of Brady's upper body.

Super Nomario · Dec 1, 2015

After what percentage of close games do you think fans of the losing team feel like the refs screwed them? It's gotta be 100%, right? Have you ever heard a fan say, "Man, that was a tough three-point loss, but without a couple questionable calls in our favor we would have lost by two scores, easy?"

j44thor · Dec 1, 2015

86spike said:
But it wasn't helmet to helmet. Barrett may have led with his helmet, but his helmet never touched Brady. He never touched Brady's head or neck at all, hence there was no flag. I have said that a flag on that play would not have surprised me. But no flag makes sense to me too given the way the impact unfolded as the two went to the turf.

The only replay of that hit was inconclusive at best and we never saw the reverse angle which would make this a much easier call to make. If he didn't make any contact with the head (and he only has to graze the helmet/face guard/neck) with an open hand then it is an automatic penalty 99% of the time. If he did manage to completely avoid the head/neck area then the guy is a certified ninja.

j44thor · Dec 1, 2015

No holding here... Thanks SI

86spike · Dec 1, 2015

j44thor said:
No holding here... Thanks SI

You know that holding goes unflagged on like 85% of plays int eh NFL, right? I spent the entire first half of the game saying "Von got held!" over and over with not a single yellow flag flown.

Again, the refs are shit for everyone.

snowmanny · Dec 1, 2015

You're not going to convince me that with a different crew calling that exact game there isn't a different outcome nine out of ten times. The refs suck, but they particularly sucked on particularly important plays in a particular direction.
But it happens, and they weren't the all-time worst calls, and I don't think it was part of any grand conspiracy (except maybe the Gronk OPI crap). That the game really turned on these calls (and the muffed punt) is one of the reasons I'm not really concerned with the loss. To me, it's a lot like the loss to the Packers last year, which was lost on a couple of swing plays (not officiating) and likewise didn't leave me feeling any less confident in the Patriots.

CaptainLaddie · Dec 1, 2015

I'm still waiting for the PSI readings during that game.

Ralphwiggum · Dec 1, 2015

86spike said:
You know that holding goes unflagged on like 85% of plays int eh NFL, right? I spent the entire first half of the game saying "Von got held!" over and over with not a single yellow flag flown.

Again, the refs are shit for everyone.

I don't typically participate in the "refs suck" thread because what's the point. So I'll ask you, what's the point of a Bronco fan trying to rationalize the shitty calls during the game? If you honestly think the game was evenly officiated, good for you, but you are not going to find many Patriot fans who agree with you, and you are wasting keystrokes in here right now, particularly with the game so fresh in everyone's heads.

The Chung call by itself which was at best extremely ticky-tack likely completely changed the outcome of the game. So, sure, holding doesn't get called all the time, but when the Chung hold does get called at such a key point, and blatantly obvious holds right in the middle of the TV screen get ignored on the go-ahead TD and the game winning TD, that's going to leave a sour taste in Pats' fans' mouths.

But please, continue on about how the officiating was shitty both ways.

crystalline · Dec 1, 2015

Let me channel SJH-- Don't quote or link Wilbur. He's the epitome of "idiots shouting hot takes they don't even believe". He's just trying to get us riled up. Don't play.

Super Nomario said:
After what percentage of close games do you think fans of the losing team feel like the refs screwed them? It's gotta be 100%, right? Have you ever heard a fan say, "Man, that was a tough three-point loss, but without a couple questionable calls in our favor we would have lost by two scores, easy?"

So you're denying that some games can be officiated a little bit badly, and that others can be officiated really badly? You're saying there is only one quality of officiating across every single game -- bad -- with no room for variation?

Edit: speaking of channeling other posters, Myt1 would have just dropped an opaque rhetoric question using the words "equivalence fallacy" and left it at that

j44thor · Dec 1, 2015

86spike said:
You know that holding goes unflagged on like 85% of plays int eh NFL, right? I spent the entire first half of the game saying "Von got held!" over and over with not a single yellow flag flown.

Again, the refs are shit for everyone.

They don't typically flaunt it on an SI cover though.

TheoShmeo · Dec 1, 2015

Ralphwiggum said:
I don't typically participate in the "refs suck" thread because what's the point. So I'll ask you, what's the point of a Bronco fan trying to rationalize the shitty calls during the game? If you honestly think the game was evenly officiated, good for you, but you are not going to find many Patriot fans who agree with you, and you are wasting keystrokes in here right now, particularly with the game so fresh in everyone's heads.

The Chung call by itself which was at best extremely ticky-tack likely completely changed the outcome of the game. So, sure, holding doesn't get called all the time, but when the Chung hold does get called at such a key point, and blatantly obvious holds right in the middle of the TV screen get ignored on the go-ahead TD and the game winning TD, that's going to leave a sour taste in Pats' fans' mouths.

But please, continue on about how the officiating was shitty both ways.

Thank you for this post. You put into words what I was thinking in a far better way than I would have stated it.

One thing to add from the perspective of a Pats fan working in NYC:

It's no surprise that many people here dislike the Pats. Or that few people here are ordinarily sympathetic when Pats fans complain about calls. Of course, I can't speak to the experiences of others in my position, but I have been pretty amazed at the amount of non-Pats fans here who have commented that the Pats got hosed. Without prompting. And with conviction. My point is that it's not just Pats fans who will say that this game was unique and that the Patriots got an extraordinary amount of bad calls and no-calls. And as noted up thread, many in the national media have said it, too.

None of that changes the fact that Brockstar had a nice game, the dearly departed Chris Harper muffed a punt at the worst possible time, the clock management by the Pats on their second to last drive in regulation was questionable, Gronk got injured, thereby limiting the offense, and the Pats were ripe for the picking with so many key guys out. Or that CJ Anderson really picked it up in the second half. But you don't have to be a Pats fan to recognize that part of the story of this game was the officiating in the Broncos' favor.

86spike · Dec 1, 2015

Ralphwiggum said:
I don't typically participate in the "refs suck" thread because what's the point. So I'll ask you, what's the point of a Bronco fan trying to rationalize the shitty calls during the game? If you honestly think the game was evenly officiated, good for you, but you are not going to find many Patriot fans who agree with you, and you are wasting keystrokes in here right now, particularly with the game so fresh in everyone's heads.

The Chung call by itself which was at best extremely ticky-tack likely completely changed the outcome of the game. So, sure, holding doesn't get called all the time, but when the Chung hold does get called at such a key point, and blatantly obvious holds right in the middle of the TV screen get ignored on the go-ahead TD and the game winning TD, that's going to leave a sour taste in Pats' fans' mouths.

But please, continue on about how the officiating was shitty both ways.

I'm not saying this game was evenly badly called. I'm saying every team, over the course of a season, gets shafted by refs.

Accepting that will make you feel better. It does for me when it happens to Denver.

Pleasantlybitter · Dec 1, 2015

CaptainLaddie said:
I'm still waiting for the PSI readings during that game.

The NFL will release the following: "Inflation details from each cold weather NFL game have been recorded for the 2015 season. The readings have been reviewed and prove conclusively that Tom Brady and the Dorito Dinks conspired etc etc etc".
The data will not be released, no one (outside of NE) will care and the headline will be "Cheating Confirmed!!!!"

crystalline · Dec 1, 2015

86spike said:
I'm not saying this game was evenly badly called. I'm saying every team, over the course of a season, gets shafted by refs.

Accepting that will make you feel better. It does for me when it happens to Denver.

Every team gets shafted an equal amount by the refs?
Or might some teams, in some important games, get shafted especially badly by the refs?

mulluysavage · Dec 1, 2015

Esiason Blasts Officials

“It’s unfortunate because the only way you can beat the Patriots is if you take four of their top offensive players off the field, the officials have their hand in the game, and then you have to have some momentum switch because [Chris Harper] muffs a punt. The officials were calling penalties all over the place, some legit some not so legit. I feel like the officials last night really let the game get out of control. There were questionable calls, especially the offensive pass interference on Gronkowski. The holding in the end zone on Chung was very questionable,” said Boomer. “It seemed liked the entire fourth quarter there was a yellow flag on the field, and when it was thrown it was against the Patriots. The whole thing was spiraling out of control "

Ralphwiggum · Dec 1, 2015

86spike said:
I'm not saying this game was evenly badly called. I'm saying every team, over the course of a season, gets shafted by refs.

Accepting that will make you feel better. It does for me when it happens to Denver.

To be clear, I accept the fact that shitty officiating is a part of the deal at times. But to me this game goes down along with the Ravens replacement ref game and the Carolina game two years ago as amongst the most shittily officiated Patriots losses in recent memory. So moreso than your typical "our guys were held all game long" game, this one sucked and will sting for a bit.

And again, it doesn't fucking matter because the Pats ultimately have to be better and a loss is a loss. But, as a fan, reading rationalization of shitty officiating by a fan of the opposing team disguised as commiseration or a feeble attempt to get us to understand that the refs just suck equally for all teams is annoying right at this moment.

Edit: As annoying as it would be, it would actually be less annoying for you to be arguing that the Pats didn't get screwed because there were tons of missed calls both ways. Becuase then at least you'd come right out and say what you've been hinting at during the whole thread, instead of this coy bullshit you are pulling now.

DJnVa · Dec 1, 2015

86spike said:
You know that holding goes unflagged on like 85% of plays int eh NFL, right? I spent the entire first half of the game saying "Von got held!" over and over with not a single yellow flag flown.

Again, the refs are shit for everyone.

You'll have a much easier night if you don't respond to every post where a Pats fan complains after a tough loss

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