Arsenal 2015-2016: The One That Got Away
- Thread starter blueguitar322
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I saw a tweet which stated:
"Arsenal to qualify need to: 1. Beat Dinamo Zagreb. 2. Bayern Munich to beat Olympiakos. 3. Beat Olympiakos by 2 goals."
Is that accurate?
"Arsenal to qualify need to: 1. Beat Dinamo Zagreb. 2. Bayern Munich to beat Olympiakos. 3. Beat Olympiakos by 2 goals."
Is that accurate?
BostonJack42 said:
That's basically accurate. We absolutely should beat Zagreb at the Emirates and Bayern should crush Olympiakos in Munich. They won't have qualified yet so they'll still field a relatively strong side and shouldn't have a problem winning even if resting a few key players.
If the first two happen, we can also probably qualify by beating Olympiakos 3-2 as long as we go into that match even with them on group goal differential, which is likely to happen if they get tonked by Bayern and/or we smash Zagreb by a big scoreline. So we will need to win by 2-0, 3-1, or 3-2 basically. Getting that result in Greece will be tough but doable.
It´s true what you´re saying.
But as long as Arsenal wins 1-0 and Bayern wins 1-0, everything is already okay for Arsenal, leaving it open for them to go through.
If Bayern even wins by +2 against Olympiacos, then Arsenal will be ahead on goal difference with every win (so if they win 3-2 against Olympiacos, they have the better goal difference, if they make up 3 goals in goal difference in next matchday; complicated
).
OTOH, I wouldn´t rule out a complete loss in this group:
If they only manage a draw against Dinamo Zagreb and lose (or draw!) at Olympiacos, they won´t have more points than Dinamo and lose the head-to-head (if Arsenal get a draw at Olympiacos, Dinamo has to get a point vs. Bayern, too...complicated ). This could have a bad ending.
It´s not that I see Arsenal completely dropping out, but I´ve seen worse results and they lost against Olympiacos, too. So I wouldn´t be too shocked if Arsene sends out some youngster-happy starting lineup in the last match away, if they´re out of the CL and they lose and go home entirely (no Per, no Mesut, no Cazorla, no Sanchez).
http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/chleague/spielrunde/champions-league/2015-16/-1/tabellenrechner.html
Seems like Groups B, E, H offer the most drama.
But as long as Arsenal wins 1-0 and Bayern wins 1-0, everything is already okay for Arsenal, leaving it open for them to go through.
If Bayern even wins by +2 against Olympiacos, then Arsenal will be ahead on goal difference with every win (so if they win 3-2 against Olympiacos, they have the better goal difference, if they make up 3 goals in goal difference in next matchday; complicated
).OTOH, I wouldn´t rule out a complete loss in this group:
If they only manage a draw against Dinamo Zagreb and lose (or draw!) at Olympiacos, they won´t have more points than Dinamo and lose the head-to-head (if Arsenal get a draw at Olympiacos, Dinamo has to get a point vs. Bayern, too...complicated
). This could have a bad ending.It´s not that I see Arsenal completely dropping out, but I´ve seen worse results and they lost against Olympiacos, too. So I wouldn´t be too shocked if Arsene sends out some youngster-happy starting lineup in the last match away, if they´re out of the CL and they lose and go home entirely (no Per, no Mesut, no Cazorla, no Sanchez).
http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/chleague/spielrunde/champions-league/2015-16/-1/tabellenrechner.html
Seems like Groups B, E, H offer the most drama.
I was happy to walk away with a point today, even if we had chances to win it near the end. This team is just battered and the players who aren't injured are running on fumes. That we were chasing the game and our subs were Flamini for Cazorla and Gibbs at LW says it all really.
Credit to Spurs for dominating long stretches of the match but good on Arsenal for hanging in there and turning things around finally.
We really missed Theo in this match. With Spurs pressing high, we needed a striker with pace to get behind the defense.
All in all, I'm happy we got to this international break still on top of the table. Now let's get some players healthy.
Credit to Spurs for dominating long stretches of the match but good on Arsenal for hanging in there and turning things around finally.
We really missed Theo in this match. With Spurs pressing high, we needed a striker with pace to get behind the defense.
All in all, I'm happy we got to this international break still on top of the table. Now let's get some players healthy.
So Mathieu Flamini is a Biotech mogul, and his company is attempting to mass produce a replacement for petroleum. Yet another pro athlete frittering away his time and money on founding companies that try develop alternatives to fossil fuels. I assume Wilshere is spending his recent downtime in a similar way.
In another predictable story, Arsenal are reportedly interested in once again throwing tens of millions of pounds at yet another tiny little fancy attacker. This guy's already 28, small, has legal troubles, wants loads of money, and probably won't be able to get it done on a rainy Tuesday night in Stoke. And bringing him in will kill Sanogo's career.
The poll that accompanies that article is just the best: "how many players do Arsenal need to sign in January?" And the choices are: none, 1-3 (minor tweaks), 4-6 (reinforcements required), 7+, and Wenger out. So the middle option is that they will buy 6 players in the January window. Seems likely. Makes as much sense as the rest of the article.
In another predictable story, Arsenal are reportedly interested in once again throwing tens of millions of pounds at yet another tiny little fancy attacker. This guy's already 28, small, has legal troubles, wants loads of money, and probably won't be able to get it done on a rainy Tuesday night in Stoke. And bringing him in will kill Sanogo's career.
The poll that accompanies that article is just the best: "how many players do Arsenal need to sign in January?" And the choices are: none, 1-3 (minor tweaks), 4-6 (reinforcements required), 7+, and Wenger out. So the middle option is that they will buy 6 players in the January window. Seems likely. Makes as much sense as the rest of the article.
Messi is coming to Arsenal, and Flamini is saving the world. (Presumably I haven't actually woken up today, then.)
Wonder what state of mind Wenger, Koscielny, and Giroud are going to be in following this past week. I know that Koscielny was stated as saying that Les Bleus' heads weren't in it for the friendly against England. Are they going to be mentally prepared for Tony Pulis' West Brom? Arsenal needs them, but I wouldn't blame them in the slightest if they weren't. I'm really interested to see who is actually healthy coming off of the break. Are Theo and Ox back?
This story is mindblowing on so many levels - what he is doing, the fact that he kept it secret from everybody around him, and that its Flamini, a man not exactly known for his football IQ and thoughtful approach to the game. Good on him.
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No, I meant in the stadium with the German National Team when they were playing the French National Team, at the time of the attacks. Maybe those guys didn't get called up for the game?
And it was the Netherlands friendly that got cancelled yesterday, right?
I'm out of it.
As mike pointed out, Mertesacker retired from International Duty. Ozil was left out of those matches.
Thanks for clarifying.
FWIW, I don't think professionals will have trouble putting on their game faces and getting through a league match, especially since they got the "heads weren't in it" thing out of the way in a friendly.
I do wonder how Ligue 1 teams are going to handle it, but that's a subject for a different thread.
FWIW, I don't think professionals will have trouble putting on their game faces and getting through a league match, especially since they got the "heads weren't in it" thing out of the way in a friendly.
I do wonder how Ligue 1 teams are going to handle it, but that's a subject for a different thread.
You would think that, but these guys are human. FWIW, Wenger is concerned:
I hope that he's ready. One of the most important outfield players Arsenal has.
Reports are that Arsenal are close to locking up Alexis to a new 5 year deal. Sounds like Ozil is a priority as well.
Bellerin is back for Saturday. No one else is. Ox and Rambo are close though. Walcott a little further.
Well that was just about the worse possible result today, and I fear the loss of Coquelin might be worse than the loss of 3 points.
It's the hope that kills you.
Well, it's the hope and the lack of squad depth and the inevitable injuries which kill you, really.
Well, it's the hope and the lack of squad depth and the inevitable injuries which kill you, really.
So he'll be back just before the January transfer window closes...the jokes write themselves, don't they?
I think we all know better than to expect you guys not to complain. That'd be like expecting a Chelsea supporter to show some class or a Man U supporter to know that football existed before the Premier League era.
It may be a crisis, but it's not at all surprising. Wilshere, Walcott, Arteta, Ox, and Ramsey have all missed significant time throughout their careers with various injuries. In Wilshere's case, given the amount of leg/ankle injuries he's had, I wonder how much longer his career is going to last.
It wasn't just a nice result. They actually played well. Özil and Sanchez provided a ton of fluidity in attack. They made things happen and were constantly interplaying. Joel had a great pass to Alexis on the third goal. The movement was excellent. If they play like they did today against Olympiakos, I have no doubt that they will advance. It was the best I've seen them play in a while.
EDIT: To add, I feel good about Arsenal advancing now. It also must be added that the best part about being in a group with Bayern is not having to face them in the first knockout stage.
EDIT: To add, I feel good about Arsenal advancing now. It also must be added that the best part about being in a group with Bayern is not having to face them in the first knockout stage.
I think we have a chance but Olympiakos in Greece is definitely a tough fixture. In the last couple years, they've beaten Atleti, Juventus, United, and Benfica at home in this competition. They will come out flying and we'll need to match that intensity and be technically sharp to get it done.
Cazorla did his knee ligament, out for 3 months, which in Arsenal speak probably means the rest of the season.
Not the prettiest game, but I'll take a 3-1 win any day. Ozil (5 key passes) and Ramsey (goal + 4 key passes) were very good going forward, Campbell actually contributed, and Cech had at least two very good saves.
Now onto a huge game in Greece. Need a 0-2 or 2-3 win or better to progress.
Now onto a huge game in Greece. Need a 0-2 or 2-3 win or better to progress.
Is anyone in England playing better than Ozil this year?
Maybe you could say Vardy because of the goal scoring streak but does he contribute elsewhere on the pitch?
Maybe you could say Vardy because of the goal scoring streak but does he contribute elsewhere on the pitch?
What did you guys think of Ramsey today? He was certainly careless in the defensive end a few times but he seems so much more engaged playing through the middle. I don't remember him having such a large influence (mostly positive) since his great start in '13. They'll likely need him to be creative and in form to have a strong December w/o Sanchez's creativity and Coquelin's injury. If he plays well, can he usurp Santi?
The best of Ramsey can clearly be found in this role. But the problems with playing Ramsey and a DM like Flamini (or Coquelin) together were also evident. We struggled to control the match and committed too many bad turnovers because we didn't have a passer in the middle of the park.
I think Cazorla's injury, which may be quite serious, just accelerates a dilemma that Wenger has to face anyway. Can you play Ramsey and Coquelin (or a Coquelin like player) together in the pivot and succeed in the long term? If not, who do you drop/move?
I've argued for a while that we needed to buy a versatile DM that could pass, a player secure enough defensively to play alongside Ramsey but with enough passing ability to play alongside Coquelin if the tactics demand it. That player is hard to find but not impossible to buy. It's easy to say that we should do it in January. But it's easier said than done and I don't really expect Wenger to be aggressive enough to make it happen.
1 goal + 4 key passes according to Opta. Say he played pretty damn well. Santi is out for 3 months anyway, which knowing how Arsenal injury math works, probably means he wouldnt be back til basically the end of the year anyway. It's Rambo's spot to play if he can actually stay healthy.
Great post MMS. Until Cazorla returns (which might not be this season) the starting spot is Ramsey's to lose.
It's doubtful that Arteta can still play at his level from 2 years ago, but reforming the Ramsey-Arteta pivot might be the best case midfield scenario until Coq/Santi return. They certainly complement each other. Yes, fast counters will be an issue but the team's defensive record from say April-December 2013 was pretty strong despite that (although Bellerin instead of Sagna does make me question if there's enough positional responsibility to pull it off).
Buying in January will likely happen, but the last mid-season Arsenal signing to really have an effect was Arshavin. Seems like a difficult time to shop.
It's doubtful that Arteta can still play at his level from 2 years ago, but reforming the Ramsey-Arteta pivot might be the best case midfield scenario until Coq/Santi return. They certainly complement each other. Yes, fast counters will be an issue but the team's defensive record from say April-December 2013 was pretty strong despite that (although Bellerin instead of Sagna does make me question if there's enough positional responsibility to pull it off).
Buying in January will likely happen, but the last mid-season Arsenal signing to really have an effect was Arshavin. Seems like a difficult time to shop.
Yup, it will be interesting to see what happens when Arteta returns. As you say, we had a really good run with the Ramsey-Arteta pivot a few years ago. I'm not sure whether Arteta is even capable of playing every week at this stage in his career though.
January is just hard. Clubs don't want to sell when they are in the thick of the race for silverware or Champions League positions, so you either need to blow somebody away with a massive offer - not Wenger's style, to say the least - or find buy players from clubs that are out of the race or that otherwise won't be missed, which generally means players without a lot of quality. The hot names the media has been speculating most about - like Ruben Neves of Porto (also a Mendes client), William Carvalho of Sporting, or Granit Xhaka of Gladbach - are all going to be very difficult to buy and very expensive if you can buy them. One player that is pretty intriguing as a "young Arteta" type that may be actually transferable is Sergi Samper from Barcelona. But he is more of an interesting option for the future and in select league and cup matches than a guy that could be expected to help immediately in the Premier League every week.
It's weird to me that players are so affected by their position. Arsenal has a very liberated attack that is predicated on movement. You may start somewhere but you should end up somewhere else moving for the ball or dragging a defender.
It's weird to see how different Ramsey's game is when he plays through the center. It kind of sucks that he doesn't have the same enthusiasm on the wing. He could definitely impact the game through his movement and his desire to get through the lines, even out there, coming in, whatever. The main thing is staying involved. It's especially worrisome when the reason he's out there is because he is a really good player that Wenger feels he has to be on the pitch, even without positional fit.
It's a mentality thing, but I don't think that it's something that should really affect his game. I'm strictly addressing the "in possession" part of the game. I don't think that there's really a difference for him defensively besides where he is. He should be tracking back and defending regardless in some form.
So yeah, he is better through the middle, but I don't think the things he's doing are things he can't do from the wing. It's just the mentality he has when he plays through the middle that gives him the confidence to do those things. If that makes sense.
It's weird to see how different Ramsey's game is when he plays through the center. It kind of sucks that he doesn't have the same enthusiasm on the wing. He could definitely impact the game through his movement and his desire to get through the lines, even out there, coming in, whatever. The main thing is staying involved. It's especially worrisome when the reason he's out there is because he is a really good player that Wenger feels he has to be on the pitch, even without positional fit.
It's a mentality thing, but I don't think that it's something that should really affect his game. I'm strictly addressing the "in possession" part of the game. I don't think that there's really a difference for him defensively besides where he is. He should be tracking back and defending regardless in some form.
So yeah, he is better through the middle, but I don't think the things he's doing are things he can't do from the wing. It's just the mentality he has when he plays through the middle that gives him the confidence to do those things. If that makes sense.
Cazorla had his knee surgery. Now Arsene says he's out for 4 months. So thats basically a wrap on Santi's year and possibly his career at Arsenal. 31 year old coming off major knee surgery? Ehhhhh
But..I assume you've played? There's a totally different mentality/edge/set of skills needed to play on the wing vs. playing in the middle. For me when I've played I want to be in the middle... You see the ball far more often..more touches..more passes = more potential goals. If you're on the wing you're more likely a facilitator. I realize this isn't always true... but if you can imagine it in baseball it may be like playing second vs. short or right field vs left. You can dot it possibly, but it takes getting used to.
Yes, I've played.
You're not going to see the ball as much on the wings, but that doesn't change the fact that the things that Ramsey does well through the middle are things that can also be effective on the wing. Arsenal still needs him to get between the lines and making runs through the channels regardless of where he is playing, the left, the right, through the middle. The best attackers in the world don't care what side they play to be the type of player they are, though moving them to the side can reduce their effectiveness, by reducing their touches. Ramsey is different in that his game is so affected by where he plays. That's the only point I am getting at. He plays like he's totally neutered on the wing, and I attribute it more to his mentality than the mentality of playing on the wing, which may be our point of contention(?).
You're not going to see the ball as much on the wings, but that doesn't change the fact that the things that Ramsey does well through the middle are things that can also be effective on the wing. Arsenal still needs him to get between the lines and making runs through the channels regardless of where he is playing, the left, the right, through the middle. The best attackers in the world don't care what side they play to be the type of player they are, though moving them to the side can reduce their effectiveness, by reducing their touches. Ramsey is different in that his game is so affected by where he plays. That's the only point I am getting at. He plays like he's totally neutered on the wing, and I attribute it more to his mentality than the mentality of playing on the wing, which may be our point of contention(?).
Didn't mean to be contentious or snarky. Just wondering if you'd played up front because I can totally understand how Ramsey doesn't feel comfortable playing anywhere other than the middle. Ozil seems to be half the player he is when placed on the wing as well.
Couldn't it also be a little about keeping shape? That Wenger would expect him to stay wide and not necessarily come in through the middle. Especially with Giroud looking for balls to head rather than through balls, like Walcott would like. I imagine there's some pressure for the wings to provide service... and Ramsey would rather been in the middle poaching than out on the wing providing. So maybe we're agreeing..that it is his mentality. But, it doesn't seem to make much sense to play players in spots that they've shown to be ineffective. (I've felt that way since Wenger kept trying to make Ozil play wide). It's also a reason I don't think Wilshire, Ramsey and Ozil play particularly well together since they all seem to get in each others way all trying to get the same balls.
On this point, I just noted this:
Only four players in Premier League history have ever notched more than 15 assists in a season (Henry in 2002-2003 with 20, Lampard in 2004-2005 with 18, Cesc in 2007-2008 with 17, Cantona in 1992-1993 with 16).
Ozil has 12 in 14 games and is on pace for 29. He almost certainly won't keep that pace up but he still has a good chance to break, and potentially smash, the Premier League record.
Looking good!
The most Arsenal result possible will be winning 2-1 and losing Ozil to injury for a few months in the process.
20mins left...I would really like to do that thing where we don't give up any goals for the rest of the game. That would be awesome.