2015 Jets: Back on Track

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GregHarris

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You have to be kidding, but I know you're not. It's the guy's first season for crissakes. So, fire him already? Guess I have to go over there today sometime.
Here is a direct link for you:
Fire Toilet Bowles

The comments are about 50/50. There is another thread/poll blaming the GM Maccagnan too.

That team has a ton of talent on the defensive side of the ball, but are a trainwreck offensively when they can not sustain a running attack or when playing from behind. Now it looks like they are going to lose Revis for a game (concussion) and possibly Mangold.

I was also surprised to learn that the Jets are an older team (6th oldest), so I guess the fact that they aren't playing up to "talent" shouldn't be a shock.
 

Al Zarilla

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Here is a direct link for you:
Fire Toilet Bowles

The comments are about 50/50. There is another thread/poll blaming the GM Maccagnan too.

That team has a ton of talent on the defensive side of the ball, but are a trainwreck offensively when they can not sustain a running attack or when playing from behind. Now it looks like they are going to lose Revis for a game (concussion) and possibly Mangold.

I was also surprised to learn that the Jets are an older team (6th oldest), so I guess the fact that they aren't playing up to "talent" shouldn't be a shock.
Yup, same old GangGreen. Of course, most of those people posting don't remember Joe Namath the QB and Super Bowl III. They are memory-less of their one Lombardi. Actually, it wasn't named the Lombardi trophy until 1970. Here is what is in the Jets trophy case:

 

GregHarris

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2008 - Gholston
2008 - Keller
2009 - Sanchize
2010 - Wilson
2011 - Wilkerson
2012 - Coples
2013 - Millner
2013 - Richardson
2014 - Prior
2015 - Williams

Just as many busts as hits, and a whole bunch of middling talent that the Pats usually grab in the 4th. Williams is still an unknown and to a lesser extent Prior.
 

Gunfighter 09

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No way he makes it to them in the waivers process, I would think. Of course, there has to be some other issue going on here, he had 6.5 sacks last year.
 

soxfan121

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2008 - Gholston
2008 - Keller
2009 - Sanchize
2010 - Wilson
2011 - Wilkerson
2012 - Coples
2013 - Millner
2013 - Richardson
2014 - Prior
2015 - Williams

Just as many busts as hits, and a whole bunch of middling talent that the Pats usually grab in the 4th. Williams is still an unknown and to a lesser extent Prior.
First, starting the list in 2008 is a weird choice. Revis is a HOF level talent, even if he hasn't been a Jet the whole time.

Second, Wilkerson might be the best DT in the league; Richardson is an excellent player who will be allowed to walk away because of his off-field issues, not his talent. Williams (small sample) looks like the real deal, and Pryor has looked better now that he's being used in a role that accentuates his strengths. Keller was a decent player until he destroyed his knee.

UP: Revis, Wilkerson, Richardson, Keller, Richardson
DOWN: Gholston, Sanchez, Wilson, Milliner, Coples
UNDECIDED: Williams, Pryor

The UP outweighs the DOWN, by a lot even if the numbers are the same. No one hits on 100% of these picks.

No way he makes it to them in the waivers process, I would think. Of course, there has to be some other issue going on here, he had 6.5 sacks last year.

I can't imagine anyone claiming him at that 2016 cap number. But I bet his agent has been flooded with calls, among them Buffalo.
 

TheoShmeo

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Second, Wilkerson might be the best DT in the league; Richardson is an excellent player who will be allowed to walk away because of his off-field issues, not his talent. Williams (small sample) looks like the real deal, and Pryor has looked better now that he's being used in a role that accentuates his strengths. Keller was a decent player until he destroyed his knee.
I've seen about half of the Jets games and my impression is that Leonard Williams looks reasonably invisible at this early stage in his career. I can't say that I have trained my eye on him and him alone when he has been on the field or that I am anything near an expert in judging the likes of him.

His measurables are pedestrian, at best. 39 tackles and half a sack in 10 games.

Given what my eyes have (or haven't) seen and his modest numbers, I'd be interested in how you get to the conclusion that Williams looks like the real deal.
 
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GregHarris

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You listed Richardson twice. He's very good but he's still only one draft pick.

I supposed I could have started the list earlier, but you can keep going back and include Mangold and Ferguson too, and in 2005 they traded their pick for a bum.

The biggest issue which you didn't touch on was where they drafted. They had 5 top ten picks in those years, 9 in the top twenty and three years they picked twice. If you want to compete for the division and make the playoffs year after year you need to have a better record than 50% (although I'd argue that the success here is below 50%), especially considering the amount of cap these picks costs (although that's changed in the last few years).
 

SeoulSoxFan

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@MMehtaNYDN It was well known around the league that the Jets had Quinton Coples on the trade block this offseason & during the season. No takers. #nyj
 

Gunfighter 09

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I can't imagine anyone claiming him at that 2016 cap number. But I bet his agent has been flooded with calls, among them Buffalo.
It's his 5th year option (which they picked up), and thus not guaranteed, with zero dead money if they cut him. I figured some team high in the waiver priority would treat it like a try out with minimal consequence for a guy they no can provide some production.

Of course, those option years are guaranteed for injury, so I wonder if he has something chronic or lingering that the Jets are trying to get away from.

Has any other player had his option picked up and then been cut by the same team? This has to be a first under this CBA. There has to be something else here for the Jets to cut ties like this.
 

soxfan121

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You listed Richardson twice. He's very good but he's still only one draft pick.

I supposed I could have started the list earlier, but you can keep going back and include Mangold and Ferguson too, and in 2005 they traded their pick for a bum.

The biggest issue which you didn't touch on was where they drafted. They had 5 top ten picks in those years, 9 in the top twenty and three years they picked twice. If you want to compete for the division and make the playoffs year after year you need to have a better record than 50% (although I'd argue that the success here is below 50%), especially considering the amount of cap these picks costs (although that's changed in the last few years).
Yep, I did. Running a lap. ;-)

And you make a good point about draft value expended. That said, it's two different GMs, and with a 3rd now in place, there's no predictive value to it. They also traded up to get Revis, which is one of those decisions that then allows the GM (Tannebaum) to fuck up repeatedly in its wake, because snaring a HOF'er in the teens with a trade up will then cloud other, subsequent moves).

It's his 5th year option (which they picked up), and thus not guaranteed, with zero dead money if they cut him. I figured some team high in the waiver priority would treat it like a try out with minimal consequence for a guy they no can provide some production.

Of course, those option years are guaranteed for injury, so I wonder if he has something chronic or lingering that the Jets are trying to get away from.

Has any other player had his option picked up and then been cut by the same team? This has to be a first under this CBA. There has to be something else here for the Jets to cut ties like this.
No idea, and it's a great question. I think I remember reading something about RGIII & the injury guarantee but I can't find the exact reference/source.

Someone ITP knows who has league connections thinks it is related to Coples's lack of competitive toughness and how that is a big factor in Bowles's evaluation - TB isn't a fan of guys with poor motors/compete levels, apparently.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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You listed Richardson twice. He's very good but he's still only one draft pick.

I supposed I could have started the list earlier, but you can keep going back and include Mangold and Ferguson too, and in 2005 they traded their pick for a bum.

The biggest issue which you didn't touch on was where they drafted. They had 5 top ten picks in those years, 9 in the top twenty and three years they picked twice. If you want to compete for the division and make the playoffs year after year you need to have a better record than 50% (although I'd argue that the success here is below 50%), especially considering the amount of cap these picks costs (although that's changed in the last few years).
I'd say this is particularly true for the Jets, not just because they play in the same division as the Patriots but because of the top-heavy team-building philosophy they seem to have favored over much of that time.
 

Seels

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Keller wasn't great.I'm not sure he's a bust, but he's definitely not a great first round pick. I would think you'd want more out of a first round catch first tight end that amasses 2900 yards and 17 touchdowns in a 5 year career.
 

soxfan121

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Keller wasn't great.I'm not sure he's a bust, but he's definitely not a great first round pick. I would think you'd want more out of a first round catch first tight end that amasses 2900 yards and 17 touchdowns in a 5 year career.
With Sanchez as your QB?

Context matters. Stats are often not good tools in football discussions. Scroll up to the Revis/Watkins discussion for more information.
 

Seels

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Sure, stats aren't everything, but Keller wasn't great anyway. I mean, subjectively he was a bad blocker and an okay receiver. From pff and FO he was pretty steadily around the 30th-40th best tight end in the league. No probowls. I don't know what he has going in his favor -- he's like their version of Daniel Graham, not a bust but really not what you want out of a first round tight end.
 

luckiestman

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Didn't they draft Harris the same year as Revis. Gholston was a total bust but otherwise, Mangini drafts were not bad. It's not like they drafted a murderer or anything.

Edit: this team was fucking good and then Favre got hurt, mangini got fired and Rex got to ride the roster and a few WRs to a couple participant banners.

Buffalo was 9-7 last year, how is being 5-5 a big deal. Jets have already won more games than they did last year with sexy
 
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SeoulSoxFan

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Revis Island may be down for maintenance for a bit:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000586746/article/darrelle-revis-could-miss-time-with-concussion

Jets coach Todd Bowles said Monday that Revis "wasn't feeling any better" on Monday, one day after suffering a concussion in the New York's 24-17 loss to the Houston Texans. The All-Pro cornerback could be facing a race against the clock with the Jets preparing for a Week 12 matchup against the Miami Dolphins.

Revis has missed one game in his career due to a concussion, a Week 2 matchup against the Steelers in 2012. He returned the following week and suffered a torn ACL, effectively ending his first tour of duty with the Jets.
One thing I noticed when I was watching the Houston game. I swear Revis looks a tad heavier:



 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Next week against Miami is basically a must win for this team. They realistically need to get to 9-7 to have a shot at the playoffs and have @NYG, @DAL, NE, and @BUF among their last five games. Odds of them going 3-1 among that group are slim to none so if they drop either the Miami or Tennessee games they're boned.
 

Al Zarilla

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Caught a bit of a Bowles' presser. He said they had to get back to basics, that they'd gotten too complicated after getting off to the 4 - 1 start. His analogy was they tried trigonometry, didn't work, so they had to go back to algebra.
He should run these things by someone who's actually taken both of these before he uses them.
 

dbn

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Caught a bit of a Bowles' presser. He said they had to get back to basics, that they'd gotten too complicated after getting off to the 4 - 1 start. His analogy was they tried trigonometry, didn't work, so they had to go back to algebra.
He should run these things by someone who's actually taken both of these before he uses them.
He should have said Gμν + Λμν = (8πG/c^4)Τμν

edit: which is, I think, Greek for "Omaha".
 

singaporesoxfan

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Caught a bit of a Bowles' presser. He said they had to get back to basics, that they'd gotten too complicated after getting off to the 4 - 1 start. His analogy was they tried trigonometry, didn't work, so they had to go back to algebra.
He should run these things by someone who's actually taken both of these before he uses them.
Jets 2015: off on a tangent.
 

slamminsammya

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Well we tried to apply homological algebra, but our spectral sequences were not exact, so we had to descend to the level of homotopy equivalence and attempt to compute just the first few cohomology groups. I think the boys can all grasp that.
 

luckiestman

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See this is why I love Bowles so much. You guys have to come up with shitty lame math jokes to mock him. With Rex you could just go the Tina Fey/ Palin route where the material wrote itself.

Eric Mangini = Ratted on his mentor

Rex Ryan = All around buffoon, foot fetish, tattoo, pegging off fans at UFC

Todd Bowles = said Trigonometry was harder than algebra when trying to make a metaphor about his team getting ahead of itself.

Yuck it up, just remember that Belichick is going to retire one day and magic concussion water or not Tommy isn't getting younger.
 

RedOctober3829

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See this is why I love Bowles so much. You guys have to come up with shitty lame math jokes to mock him. With Rex you could just go the Tina Fey/ Palin route where the material wrote itself.

Eric Mangini = Ratted on his mentor

Rex Ryan = All around buffoon, foot fetish, tattoo, pegging off fans at UFC

Todd Bowles = said Trigonometry was harder than algebra when trying to make a metaphor about his team getting ahead of itself.

Yuck it up, just remember that Belichick is going to retire one day and magic concussion water or not Tommy isn't getting younger.
We lived through decades of awful football. I think we as a fanbase appreciate where they are at right now and know it doesn't last forever. However, that won't get in the way of mocking the Jets.
 

luckiestman

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We lived through decades of awful football. I think we as a fanbase appreciate where they are at right now and know it doesn't last forever. However, that won't get in the way of mocking the Jets.

Lose two games in a row and we'll see how appreciative this fan base is
 

Old Fart Tree

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See this is why I love Bowles so much. You guys have to come up with shitty lame math jokes to mock him. With Rex you could just go the Tina Fey/ Palin route where the material wrote itself.

Eric Mangini = Ratted on his mentor

Rex Ryan = All around buffoon, foot fetish, tattoo, pegging off fans at UFC

Todd Bowles = said Trigonometry was harder than algebra when trying to make a metaphor about his team getting ahead of itself.

Yuck it up, just remember that Belichick is going to retire one day and magic concussion water or not Tommy isn't getting younger.
Lighten up Francis. The consensus on this board is that Bowles is a good coach that has that former shitshow of an organization headed in the right direction. Doesn't mean we don't get to make fun of a divisional rival.
 

soxfan121

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Lighten up Francis. The consensus on this board is that Bowles is a good coach that has that former shitshow of an organization headed in the right direction. Doesn't mean we don't get to make fun of a divisional rival.
Nor does it mean he can't throw a few shots back.

luckiestman >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Berry
 

SeoulSoxFan

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See this is why I love Bowles so much. You guys have to come up with shitty lame math jokes to mock him. With Rex you could just go the Tina Fey/ Palin route where the material wrote itself.
On the contrary. The thread title is more of less a reflection of how the Jets are doing right now.

As October mentioned above, there is a ton of respect for Bowles around these parts. That's regardless of how much crap he's getting from the NY/NJ media (which I think is unfair).

If you'd like to suggest a thread title change, PM me at any time.
 

TheoShmeo

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Lose two games in a row and we'll see how appreciative this fan base is
I have no beef with you and agree with the others re the Berry/you comparison. It's good to have some push back around here.

But on this point, if the Pats lose two in a row, I think you will read a lot of concern about what that means for the playoffs and whether they have finally reached a tipping point with all these damned injuries. I seriously doubt that Belichick will suddenly become a target. He has way too much equity in the bank and losses to Denver and Philly would be pinned much more on the injuries than a sudden BB brain drain. With Bowles, as much as he's the Anti-Rex, and is therefore instantly refreshing, he's still new, the Jets have lost 4 out of 5, and it's understandable that Jets fans are still quick to point fingers at him.
 

Al Zarilla

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In Bowles' defense, trigonometry is harder than algebra. It's just that Belichick uses integral calculus.
Depends on what kind of algebra. Linear algebra can be a bitch and is taught at college level along with calculus to torture engineering majors. He should have said they did well with Algebra I, went on to Trig and now have to go back to Algebra I.
 

tims4wins

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Yeah linear algebra sucked. I love math but I didn't understand that shit at all in college. Got something like a 34 on my midterm.
 
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