Kinda want him to win the postseason MVP more than the regular season award. Betting you feel the same.SAS called Tatum the leading candidate for MVP this morning:
Tatum's case is pretty basic: He's by far the best player on what's been by far the best team. I don't think his numbers are enough to get him their (neither in volume nor in efficiency), but when the biggest voice in NBA media says this leading into the ASB, it means something. If Boston beats Denver, OKC and Milwaukee in the 2nd half of the year (with Tatum playing well), he's got a puncher's chance.
For a lot of casual viewers (and some in the media who should know better), if you haven't won a title, you're all on the same level and everyone just remembers your last game, and/or the farthest you've gotten. Game 7 vs Miami and the finals against GS are what most people think about when discussing Tatum's playoff performance, as if they are remotely equivalent to the total failure that has been Embiid in the spring.It’s weird that in this conversation Tatum is seen as downgraded for his (ankle sprained) Game 7 vs Miami, and Embiid is noted to have “moments” such as scoring 70, but apparently Tatum scoring a game 7 record 51 points to eliminate Embiid has been wiped from the NBAverse collective memory. Tatum’s game seems like more of a meaningful “moment” than a contrived 70 against a .200 win team in January.
After watching Jokic's playoff run last year, it's pretty hard for me to think of anyone else as being the MVP, until proven otherwise. He's in that zone where people forget how amazing he is because he's so consistent. I don't think even Giannis, SGA, Luka are even that close, and Tatum definitely isn't. (And Tatum has been awesome this year; definitely the best of his career.)SAS called Tatum the leading candidate for MVP this morning:
View: https://youtu.be/b5qv3czDnTM?si=l7qDZe_GN8c8-W3m&t=210
Tatum's case is pretty basic: He's by far the best player on what's been by far the best team. I don't think his numbers are enough to get him their (neither in volume nor in efficiency), but when the biggest voice in NBA media says this leading into the ASB, it means something. If Boston beats Denver, OKC and Milwaukee in the 2nd half of the year (with Tatum playing well), he's got a puncher's chance.
The Tim Bontemps straw poll is normally a really good indicator for this award and Tatum is 6th right now. It seems like theres one tier of Jokic and SGA, then GIannis and Luka.After watching Jokic's playoff run last year, it's pretty hard for me to think of anyone else as being the MVP, until proven otherwise. He's in that zone where people forget how amazing he is because he's so consistent. I don't think even Giannis, SGA, Luka are even that close, and Tatum definitely isn't. (And Tatum has been awesome this year; definitely the best of his career.)
It's really not close - all just grist for the pretty boring February conversation mill. I do think Tatum is a little underrated in this conversation as between the rest of the field. As transcendent as Luka's offensive game is, I would take what Tatum brings to the table on both ends. Shai is amazing, but Tatum's size gives him more defensive versatility. Giannis remains great, but seems to have declined slightly.After watching Jokic's playoff run last year, it's pretty hard for me to think of anyone else as being the MVP, until proven otherwise. He's in that zone where people forget how amazing he is because he's so consistent. I don't think even Giannis, SGA, Luka are even that close, and Tatum definitely isn't. (And Tatum has been awesome this year; definitely the best of his career.)
Yup, but how often does the consensus best player in the league win MVP? Lebron was the undisputed best player in the league for a solid decade (09-18), during which he missed an average of just 5 games per year and his teams won an average of 57 games...yet he only won 4 MVPs. Narrative is a funny thing, but if Tatum plays at an A+ level post ASB (not impossible, he's consistently been better after the break throughout his career), the Celtics run away with things, a few things could break wrong with the others and who knows.After watching Jokic's playoff run last year, it's pretty hard for me to think of anyone else as being the MVP, until proven otherwise. He's in that zone where people forget how amazing he is because he's so consistent. I don't think even Giannis, SGA, Luka are even that close, and Tatum definitely isn't. (And Tatum has been awesome this year; definitely the best of his career.)
I think the opposite. The window for him winning the MVP is, what, the next 5-7 years? And in that time, he'll have to compete against a group of ascended superstars - Jokic, Embiid, Luka, Giannis - and guys ready to ascend - Wemby, SGA. Then there's the guys who could take a giant leap like Edwards, Morant, and Chet. And that says nothing about guys who, however unlikely, could catch lightning in a bottle for a season (Curry, Booker, Zion, AD, etc)I think the odds of Tatum ever winning an MVP are getting closer to 50-50. I’d love for him to win once.
Get a ring and all of a sudden that regular season MVP award becomes a lot more attainable.I think he’s getting better, and that helps. He is on a great team and that helps; a title would help more. I am dubious of Giannis winning another. I am dubious of Luka being on a good enough team in the next few years to get rewarded. I am dubious of Embiid’s health. I think the voters might tire of giving it to Jokic. I agree that Wemby and SGA are a problem, especially SGA if OKC keeps rising.
I agree his perception is not quite that of an MVP, but perceptions can change fast. And I have a certain faith that will happen.
His path is to win a Title first to give him that bump into the top tier of the voters minds….and then carry that momentum into the next season as the one in the group who has yet to win one. So uhhhhh, next season?I think the odds of Tatum ever winning an MVP are getting closer to 50-50. I’d love for him to win once.
But wouldn't this also assume that Tatum doesn't improve?I think the opposite. The window for him winning the MVP is, what, the next 5-7 years? And in that time, he'll have to compete against a group of ascended superstars - Jokic, Embiid, Luka, Giannis - and guys ready to ascend - Wemby, SGA. Then there's the guys who could take a giant leap like Edwards, Morant, and Chet. And that says nothing about guys who, however unlikely, could catch lightning in a bottle for a season (Curry, Booker, Zion, AD, etc)
I think it'll take a lot of things to break right in order for Tatum to sneak an MVP away from the guys on that list. He's a fantastic player, but people just don't seem to view him as a guy that's the best in the league.
Yup.His path is to win a Title first to give him that bump into the top tier of the voters minds….and then carry that momentum into the next season as the one in the group who has yet to win one. So uhhhhh, next season?
Am I one of the few here who sees Kyrie’s presence opening up Luka’s overall game? Without having to carry all of the offensive burden his defensive effort has been greater this year than ever before.If Luka were to ever win an MVP over Tatum, they should simply throw the award in the trash.
His usage in Kyrie games is a fraction of what it is in non-Kyrie games/minutes. Luka defers to Kyrie all the time.“Having to carry”? You may be right about the defense but nobody loves his basketball more than Luka.
There are two extraneous words in that sentence.If Luka were to ever win an MVP over Tatum, they should simply throw the award in the trash.
Tatum, get the man on permanent retainer for all season. This is like the 4th or 5th year this has happened.
Yeah, it’s kind of weird that the same thing continuously happens and no one on the Celtics staff can fix it but Hanlon canTatum, get the man on permanent retainer for all season. This is like the 4th or 5th year this has happened.
Yup, I don't pretend to know the reasons, but JT would be the MVP every year if someone just shelled out the money to lock down the Tatum Whisperer. (I joke, but kinda not.)Yeah, it’s kind of weird that the same thing continuously happens and no one on the Celtics staff can fix it but Hanlon can
It'd be worth the money just to keep him away from Embiid and Maxey.Yup, I don't pretend to know the reasons, but JT would be the MVP every year if someone just shelled out the money to lock down the Tatum Whisperer. (I joke, but kinda not.)
AgreedYeah, it’s kind of weird that the same thing continuously happens and no one on the Celtics staff can fix it but Hanlon can
Hanlan is a specialist, an actual shooting coach. That is far different than x and o, game strategy & management, player communicating, etc.Yeah, it’s kind of weird that the same thing continuously happens and no one on the Celtics staff can fix it but Hanlon can
If this $5BN enterprise doesn't have a 2nd-row shooting coach somebody needs to hire oneHanlan is a specialist, an actual shooting coach. That is far different than x and o, game strategy & management, player communicating, etc.
They have 6 player enhancement coaches. How is one of them not a designated shooting coach?Hanlan is a specialist, an actual shooting coach. That is far different than x and o, game strategy & management, player communicating, etc.
If this $5BN enterprise doesn't have a 2nd-row shooting coach somebody needs to hire one
I don’t think you guys understand how few elite shooting coaches there are in the world. I can pretty much assure than none of our 6 coaches who drill our players are in that small group.They have 6 player enhancement coaches. How is one of them not a designated shooting coach?
It’s a small group but I think what everyone in here is saying is…..how the fuck have we not hired one of this small group? Especially when we have an in with the leader of the Pure Sweat group?I don’t think you guys understand how few elite shooting coaches there are in the world. I can pretty much assure than none of our 6 coaches who drill our players are in that small group.
Two questions then:I don’t think you guys understand how few elite shooting coaches there are in the world. I can pretty much assure than none of our 6 coaches who drill our players are in that small group.
It’s very likely that Hanlan wouldn’t forego the business he built to sign with one team. The financial match doesn’t appear to be there. Other private coaches have said as much….I know McClangahan spoke of how it wouldn’t make sense to take such a pay cut to work for someone else when you can control your own business and who you work with while making more.It’s a small group but I think what everyone in here is saying is…..how the fuck have we not hired one of this small group? Especially when we have an in with the leader of the Pure Sweat group?
He doesn’t run a charity. I’m sure he was aware of the issue and scheduled the sessions to work on it. Guy has to get paid.Two questions then:
- How much does he make?
- Why can’t he diagnose problems from tape and FaceTime Tatum or something?
I once heard shooting is the easiest skill to learn at the NBA levelIt’s a small group but I think what everyone in here is saying is…..how the fuck have we not hired one of this small group? Especially when we have an in with the leader of the Pure Sweat group?
Yep, this is the reasonable ask. Any stretch of two consecutive off days, we should see if he can swing by for one of them, if only to shoot the shit with JT. Between / prior to playoff rounds, too. The guy isn't going to sit around waiting for his few-times-a-year where he can make a difference to Tatum, forgoing all his other business... but we should also be his #1 customer by volume. This is about as close to actual sorcery as you get in sports.Bi-weekly visits by Hanlen would be nice. As would triage visits whenever JT strings together a couple of bad games.
Right. There must be some happy medium between "oh yeah I fix you once a season, gl outside of that!" and "I give up my whole business to be with you."Yep, this is the reasonable ask. Any stretch of two consecutive off days, we should see if he can swing by for one of them, if only to shoot the shit with JT. Between / prior to playoff rounds, too. The guy isn't going to sit around waiting for his few-times-a-year where he can make a difference to Tatum, forgoing all his other business... but we should also be his #1 customer by volume. This is about as close to actual sorcery as you get in sports.
I didn't mean to imply that he would work exclusively with Tatum or the Celtics but maybe even the opposite; I wonder what he bills because I wonder what it's worth—seems like it could be a lot.It’s very likely that Hanlan wouldn’t forego the business he built to sign with one team. The financial match doesn’t appear to be there. Other private coaches have said as much….I know McClangahan spoke of how it wouldn’t make sense to take such a pay cut to work for someone else when you can control your own business and who you work with while making more.
He doesn’t run a charity. I’m sure he was aware of the issue and scheduled the sessions to work on it. Guy has to get paid.
I can't put a dollar value on it, but it's the difference between Tatum being ranked somewhere in the lower half of the top 10 (and Boston being a slight title favorite, or even with Denver) and Tatum being ranked 3rd overall (and Boston being an overwhelming title favorite, absent injury).I didn't mean to imply that he would work exclusively with Tatum or the Celtics but maybe even the opposite; I wonder what he bills because I wonder what it's worth—seems like it could be a lot.
Like, obviously things can't granular in the way baseball can, but the teams evaluate what players are worth when considering contracts and trades. (Duh.) So, if it could be quantified, what's Tatum improving his off the dribble 3P% by 8.5% worth? Or what would it be worth over the course of a season? Especially with downstream effects on how opposing defenses have to play the Celtics? The context, of course, is Celtics projected payroll pre-trade deadline was, what? $184MM? A shade under $200MM for next season is easier math, so if the team is 0.05% better, is that worth $100K? And that's not subject to the tax either.
I'm sure that's not how the math actually works, but as a quick and dirty, damn, I'm curious what Pure Sweat bills.
If the Celtics win it all this year, they should totally send Hanlen a gift basket. And a nice one too, like with the fruitcake and stuff. Maybe a Toblerone?I can't put a dollar value on it, but it's the difference between Tatum being ranked somewhere in the lower half of the top 10 (and Boston being a slight title favorite, or even with Denver) and Tatum being ranked 3rd overall (and Boston being an overwhelming title favorite, absent injury).
Should they consult Captain Jeets?If the Celtics win it all this year, they should totally send Hanlen a gift basket. And a nice one too, like with the fruitcake and stuff. Maybe a Toblerone?
I know of a similar skills trainer who was making well over $1m annually running his own business. I’d imagine Hanlan is in that ballpark so 2x or 3x that to have work for an employer to make it worth their time I’m guessing.I didn't mean to imply that he would work exclusively with Tatum or the Celtics but maybe even the opposite; I wonder what he bills because I wonder what it's worth—seems like it could be a lot.
Like, obviously things can't granular in the way baseball can, but the teams evaluate what players are worth when considering contracts and trades. (Duh.) So, if it could be quantified, what's Tatum improving his off the dribble 3P% by 8.5% worth? Or what would it be worth over the course of a season? Especially with downstream effects on how opposing defenses have to play the Celtics? The context, of course, is Celtics projected payroll pre-trade deadline was, what? $184MM? A shade under $200MM for next season is easier math, so if the team is 0.05% better, is that worth $100K? And that's not subject to the tax either.
I'm sure that's not how the math actually works, but as a quick and dirty, damn, I'm curious what Pure Sweat bills.
One thing that I don’t think people really understand is the level to which Tatum warps defenses. I’ve posted the blitz percentage over the years, and Tatum is regularly blitzed right up there with Steph, prime Dame, KD, etc.@RorschachsMask is all over this, but one thing I don't think Tatum gets nearly enough credit for is his gravity. He causes lots of problems in the Celtics' screen actions because teams don't want to lose track of him, and that in turn creates open guys, switches, bad double-teams, etc.
You don't have to squint that hard to see the power forward version of what Steph brought to the peak Warriors, and the PPG and assist numbers are really similar too.
For guys who are ranked above him in the MVP race, like Luka, SGA and Giannis: could they really even bring that type of value if they wanted to? It would be a big adjustment, at the very least.
Fwiw I think Jokic does have that gravity in his own way, while also being completely ridiculous on-ball, and it's why Jokic is in his own stratosphere for me wrt value.
Put another way: if you swapped Tatum in on Dallas or OKC, would they be better or worse? I think they'd clearly be better, and a big part of that would be Tatum further unlocking guys like Jalen Williams and Kyrie, while also being versatile on defense.