This is now: BB and the direction of the Patriots
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Very true but we don't know his contract so maybe it doesn't work like that.
My “who’s available and better” question was rhetorical but purposeful since all the talk about it being time to move on implies that someone else would be an improvement. I realize that the answer may depend on the time horizon and how one defines success - eg winning more games in the short term vs developing a QB and rebuilding the rest of the roster. I just haven’t seen evidence of a true alternative; it’s not like there’s an obvious heir apparent. Maybe they’ll follow the current fashion and poach someone else’s 30-something offensive coordinator.
Because that is the special sauce.
The Bills have a great QB, and might not ever make the SB (now that I typed that place your bets on them)
The Chiefs have a great QB and a great head coach and might challenge the Pats consecutive AFFCG games record.
Yes, he could. The question is how Kraft and Belichick wish to end their long-standing relationship. They both know it's going to end. But when, and under what conditions, are still yet to be determined (unless, of course, they have already determined it and just not leaked it to the public).
It's your contention that Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes would've been as good as they are had they been drafted by someone else? It had nothing to do with the situations they landed in, and it was just luck that these teams got them - not superior scouting?
Cant think of too many cases in recent history of a team turning it around without getting a high end QB. There’s a few examples of going from below average to a little above average in a weak division with a stopgap QB but complete, sustained turnaround is heavily reliant upon nailing the QB spot
Hell, there are teams all over the playoffs this season who have had to rely on the their 2nd, 3rd or 4th string QB to win games.
But as I keep seeing here, apparently there’s nothing worse than to win 10 games and make the playoffs. That’s much, much worse than going 4-13.
Harbaugh just turned 60. To sign Harbaugh probably requires a 5-6 year commitment, plus giving him full power over football operations. A wrong decision would set the franchise back a decade (post-Kraft era). Personally, he wouldn't be on my short list.
Because on the list of things needed for a great team, a great head coach is somewhere close to 2nd on the list after a great qb.
Edit: sorry meant to quote manic here not kfp
Yes, I see above average offenses that don't have elite QBs and yet they can still score points and drive the ball. Their ability to do so wasn't purely accidental or "lucky."
This is always a silly exercise though. Unless they’re hiring the coach who just went to a conference champ game, who would be obviously better? Every hire is going to have flaws on his record.
Hell, we hired the failed coach of the Browns who had never won a thing when he wasn’t with Parcells! How could he possibly be seen as an obvious improvement over Pete Carroll, winner of a division title and 2 playoff appearances?
My contention is that to have sustained success you need a great QB and a great Head Coach/GM.
Mahomes I think would have been good anywhere but Ried made him great, atleast very quickly and the Chiefs deserve credit for drafting him how/when they did.
Allen is kinda fascinating, he was trash his first two years. He is kinda a weird one, it's actually amazing he put it all together.
Harbaugh is interesting because in San Francisco he was a good coach but the whole organization was a toxic waste dump by the time he left. Everyone hated each other and him. Hard to tell if the time away changed that given how little college coaches need to care about long term working relationships.
Well we’re going to have a new starting QB next season. And I suspect it’ll be a guy we take near the top of the draft. So we’ll be doing just as you suggest.
Then he sucks as a QB. A good NFL QB wouldn’t get “broken” by a single year of a bad coordinator.
This is pretty circular logic. Is Brock Purdy a "high-end QB"? Was Jalen Hurts a "high-end QB"? People were debating just how good Matt Stafford was before he went to Sean McVay (it was always assumed Megatron made him better). We call them high-end QBs once they become high-end QBs - but franchises actually have to invest in the offense around them to make them high-end. Brock Purdy on the Panthers is not a high-end QB and Bryce Young on the Niners might be awesome.
That's what's so illogical about this QB discussion - look at Mahomes this year. We could draft Caleb Williams and it's not job done - he needs playmakers to throw it to and a decent line to protect him. Can we rely on BB to deliver the rest of it? Or is it going to be Caleb or Drake's or Jayden's fault when they don't develop because they're throwing to number one Free Agent signing DJ Chark?
Hey, we were told Demario Douglas is as good as Puka Nacua. So maybe they don't need Chark.
I think you need a young guy in here that has an innovative mind and is willing to stick around for a rebuild (on offense.) A Mike McDaniel type. Not Josh, he’s proven twice he’s not fit to be a head coach as he has a tendency to clash with players.
Probably not, but they have (mostly) settled QB situations and could be ready to compete as soon as BB Year 2.
So then it wasn't Tom Brady but the team BB built around him? Sounds like we can trust him.
It's a combination of both - there needs to be underlying talent, but that talent isn't going to come out unless there's coaching and infrastructure in place as well. It's not a random occurrence and it's not pre-determined - they go hand in hand. Yeah, Bill was able to do it 22 years ago with a completely different cast of characters (Ernie Adams, Scar, Pioli, Weis, etc.) - is it just as likely he'll make it happen with BoB, Klemm, and Matt Groh?
It's not the only thing, but it's probably like 75% of the thing.
You can blame the GM if you want, but there are probably only a dozen or so QBs good enough that we'd be happy with. So, I guess you'd have to blame 20 GMs every year for not being smart enough to have one of those 12ish guys.
That could be a great way for Robert to kick off the conversation with Bill. Have a set of charts with Fears, Scarnecchia, Crennel, and so forth matched up with the current successors with career pedigrees for both groups. "What are we doing here, Bill?"
Only one can, right?
What's your point? If they scored the 28th most points, you'd be OK with it?
No, I wouldn't be.
But I am far less ok with the fact that the Patriots are last in the NFL in points in 2023.
Trying to follow this - you think that Brock Purdy, Jalen Hurts, Josh Allen, Jordan Love, Lamar Jackson, etc. would be just as successful on any other team? It's only 25% of the team's responsibility to set them up for success with scheme and talent?
Sorry, I just can't see it. Drop Brock Purdy on this Patriots team and we're all screaming for them to replace him.
If it's all so random, then the value of BB the coach isn't all that much, is it?
Then your question added nothing. Great job.
Purdy and Hurts, probably not, but I don't think they are in the top 12ish QBs in the league we'd be happy with either. SF and Philly have built wagons around them. That's really threading a needle to accomplish, you have to have hit after hit after hit in the draft. Congrats to them for doing so, it's a fantastic job by them.
Josh Allen, Jordan Love, Lamar Jackson, yes I believe they'd be just as successful on any other team. Or at least, the same general level of success.
There are teams all over the league playing with their #2 or #3 QBs or even the corpse of Joe Flacco and every single one of them scored more points than the Pats. And all of them except two won more games.
If it is just the QB how did they do it?
Edit: some of them are even in the playoffs or in contention. The Pats won 4 games and scored the least amount of points in the league. That’s all because they had a bad QB? No other reason?
I didn't say it's just the QB. I said it's probably like 75% the QB.
It's right there in the post you quoted.
I think Bill should be back, but the offense is not just a QB issue.
The offensive line was average at best when healthy and terrible once the injuries rolled in, rising back to averagish for the couple games they were healthy.
Gesicki was repeated the Jonnu mistake. They keep wanting to run 2 TE where both TEs can catch... good stuff, but one or both needs to be a plus blocker to force the mismatches.
The offensive line was average at best when healthy and terrible once the injuries rolled in, rising back to averagish for the couple games they were healthy.
Gesicki was repeated the Jonnu mistake. They keep wanting to run 2 TE where both TEs can catch... good stuff, but one or both needs to be a plus blocker to force the mismatches.
I asked this in the other thread, but might as well do so here. Wouldn't a team wanting Belichick have to go thru the Rooney Rule requirements? Wouldn't that complicate a compensation transaction?
Yes. Every team has to go through the Rooney rule. People expecting compensation for BB are delusional.
So what is it about the remaining 25% that the Patriots are failing so badly at? Other teams have been able to overcome bad QB play or scheme around it or whatever. For the Pats what I am hearing is they had bad QB play and that’s the end of the story and nobody on the coaching staff or in the front office has any accountability for a shit-tastic 4 win season.
Not that much, they just have to interview every team has to, they work out compensation with Kraft as a condition of interviewing Bill. "we want to interview Bill, please allow it, and if we end up hiring him we'll give comp of X", then they do a normal hiring process. Wouldn't really slow down the Patriots any either since everyone has to wait until after Divisional to do interviews.
But overall, yeah I think any significant compensation for BB is a pipe dream.
I think we'll agree to disagree here. Buffalo did a tremendous job of patiently developing Allen and took a risk (that paid off) with Diggs. Love has been lucky to have an FO that found a ton of young, useful receivers for him in just two drafts. Lamar Jackson, similarly, landed in a situation that utilized his strengths - it's not a foregone conclusion that every other team in the league would've done so.
Who is a top 12 QB if not Purdy and Hurts? Tua? Geno? Justin Fields?
Will a team be able to line up a set of other interviewees if BB is one of the candidates?
It may or may not be delusional. But it's not delusional because of the Rooney Rule.
It's not the remaining 25% that the Patriots are failing so badly at.
The 75% failed so badly, that the 25% that was below average turned into an F.
Is it breaking news that the QB position is really, really, like really important?
This is what drives me insane.
Tua, Hurts, Purdy, Josh Allen, Burrow...
Go look at their rookie years, and in most cases, their 2nd seasons, and tell me they were "high end QB's."
They weren't. They became that because of coaching changes, offensive line help, and skill position studs being brought in. One after another.
No QB on any team carries his team to championships, except for unicorns, and those unicorns in the last 20 years, consist of Tom Brady and Patrick Mahomes.
Aaron Rodgers sucked donkey balls the minute Adams left Green Bay. It's an 11 man game, always has been, always will be, except in the rarest of circumstances.
FTR, I want BB back. I just want someone else picking the groceries and guiding the offense.
No of course the QB position is really important. I just think it is ridiculous to think that the Pats QB situation was so much worse than everyone else’s that you can point the finger at that, alone, as the problem with the team and excuse everything else that stunk about the Patriots in 2023.
No it’s breaking news that the coach and GM have nothing to do with acquiring and developing that 75%.
What happened that offseason in Buffalo?
It wasn't fascinating. It was Stephon Diggs.
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