2023-2024 General NBA Season Thread

Tony C

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HomeRunBaker said:
I dunno about this. The Clippers have been one of the best defensive teams in the league this year (6th in Def Eff entering tonight) with Bones Hyland starting so Harden isn't a downgrade at all there and they are adding Tucker who can be very useful in this area. Dallas' offense is lethal when Doncic and Kyrie both have it going and when they are like tonight it doesn't matter who is defending them so I don't rate this against the Clipper defense.
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Maybe you're right. (Though I suspect after tonight they may no longer be 6th). Hyland has only started 2 games, so I don't think that's such a variable. But you're not wrong that it's not like they gave up defensive studs (Covington is the closest and has looked good to me this year, but is past his prime so not great). To me that they're just lacking in interior defense. They were already weak at power forward. Zubac has his uses, but Lue is just using him for 25 minutes or so and they lost Plumlee who was a solid back-up. Tucker looks old to me. Seems like they'll be playing a lot of line-ups with George as their biggest guy. More than anything it's just small sample size observation: very little rim protection.
 
ElUno20

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The clippers are probably garbage but it's so early and none of this matters. Lue always talks about needing 10-15 games to get used to new guys.

They were scrapping for the play in either way
 
HomeRunBaker

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Rewatched good portion of Mavs/Clippers...the shotmaking of the Mavs man, if you have a chance to catch a replay it would be well worth your while. Clippers ran Doncic and Kyrie off their spots all night but it simply didn't matter. If these two push each other they are capable of some incredible performances.
 
Sam Ray Not

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I typically find this YouTuber mildly annoying, but his take on Harden on the Clips is pretty great; and the clip at 1:10-ish of “Off-Ball Harden” managing to turn a wide open catch-and-shoot corner three into an epic fail involving spilled coffee may be my highlight of the season to date…

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HgIGMtQlphM
 
Kliq

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HomeRunBaker said:
Rewatched good portion of Mavs/Clippers...the shotmaking of the Mavs man, if you have a chance to catch a replay it would be well worth your while. Clippers ran Doncic and Kyrie off their spots all night but it simply didn't matter. If these two push each other they are capable of some incredible performances.
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It's very generous to lump Kyrie in there with Luka. Luka demolished the Clippers in stunning fashion, 42 points with 7:30 minutes to go in the third quarter when he sat down. Kyrie is just swimming in his wake (and his having kind of a lousy season so far).
 
lovegtm

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Edit, need to check whether he gets a step after gather.
 
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GeorgeCostanza

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Looks clean to me. Gather and then the 1 2. All the good shooters do this. Curry, Dame, Mitchell. It’s a great way for us little guys to create space on the perimeter.
 
SteveF

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Definitely not a travel given the way the gather is officiated these days.
 
Tony C

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HomeRunBaker said:
I dunno about this. The Clippers have been one of the best defensive teams in the league this year (6th in Def Eff entering tonight) with Bones Hyland starting so Harden isn't a downgrade at all there and they are adding Tucker who can be very useful in this area. Dallas' offense is lethal when Doncic and Kyrie both have it going and when they are like tonight it doesn't matter who is defending them so I don't rate this against the Clipper defense.
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Just one more note about this. I agree with you that part of last night was just Doncic and Kyrie being red hot; no defense was going to stop Luka. And, as well, realizing it's all small sample size so plenty of noise, but the Clippers are now down to 14th in def efficiency rating and 21st in def rating overall. The defensive numbers since Harden's arrival are at the bottom of the league across the board. You're right that that's not on Harden exactly -- one for one the drop off is not enormous -- but I do think it reflects losing some solid wing defense and being completely undersized.

They're going to need to bench Russ and trade for some front-line help to balance the team. I know their good start, strong defense included, was also very small sample size, but I'll be honest I thought they had figured something out. Russ looked even better that last year's strong stint and Covington seemed better than last year, too. Will definitely get better -- for whatever reason PG13 has had a terrible few games with Harden after starting the year looking studly, so no reason that won't self-correct -- but I still don't see how the whole thing comes together.
 
SteveF

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HomeRunBaker said:
Or how the gather rule reads.
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It's still very obviously a judgment call even in terms of how the gather rule reads (at what point has the gather occurred?), though admittedly this Maxey example isn't a questionable one.
 
MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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SteveF said:
It's still very obviously a judgment call even in terms of how the gather rule reads (at what point has the gather occurred?), though admittedly this Maxey example isn't a questionable one.
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I slowed it down and took it back and forth, and I think I'm just getting fooled because he gathers, then pulls the right foot all the way past where his left was and the left shoots all the way to the left past the line (1-2) and then he brings his right over to his left and it looks like he hops in real time, but really his left doesn't land until it gets all the way over there. It's amazing how far he travels and still gets into a solid shooting base.
 
HomeRunBaker

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SteveF said:
It's still very obviously a judgment call even in terms of how the gather rule reads (at what point has the gather occurred?), though admittedly this Maxey example isn't a questionable one.
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It's no different than any other violation. The rule is clear but interpreting it at NBA game speed....good luck with that.
 
amfox1

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Philadelphia 76ers guard Kelly Oubre Jr. was a pedestrian struck by a motor vehicle in Center City, Philadelphia tonight and is receiving treatment at a local hospital, a Sixers spokesman tells ESPN. Oubre Jr., is currently in stable condition.

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Representatives from the team, including 76ers President Daryl Morey, are with Oubre Jr., at the hospital. He is expected to miss significant time due to his injuries, but those aren’t considered to be season-ending. Local authorities are investigating the incident.
 
benhogan

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Draymond gets weirdly tossed tonight.

His first T was typical barking at the Ref. He continued to yell at the refs for an entire Quarter, hand gestures, etc. No 2nd Tech for Dray's carrying-on, the refs ignored his nonsense for a while.

Then Dray does a shoulder nudge to Mitchell on a fast break, which sends Spider into the first row. Mitchell runs back right into Draymond. Foul on Mitchell. But Dray gets his 2nd Tesch for the nudge, ejected. FT for Spider and 2 FTs for the Warriors.
 
Tony C

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What's weird about it? It was a clearly intentional shove that was quite dangerous. Intent to injure is hard to know, but it was yet another Draymond douchebag move. They were behind the play and the shove was both obviously on purpose and couldn't have had any basketball purpose. Deserves a suspension in addition to the T imho. What a pure and simple scumbag he is. And then of course he runs around the court for 5 minutes gesticulating and riling up the crowd as if it's WWF. When is the NBA going to stop coddling him? He gets away with stuff that is leaps and bounds beyond what anyone else can get away with. Giannis gives a glance at a guy he dunked on and is tossed. Whoever it was the other day got tossed for barely a word directed at the ref; while Draymond can do virtually anything he wants and the refs just shrug it off as Draymond being Draymond. Enough already.

By the way, turned out to be a smart move by Mitchell to run after and challenge Draymond. Forced the refs to look at the tape and see what precipitated it.
 
benhogan

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Tony C said:
What's weird about it? It was a clearly intentional shove that was quite dangerous. Intent to injure is hard to know, but it was yet another Draymond douchebag move. They were behind the play and the shove was both obviously on purpose and couldn't have had any basketball purpose. Deserves a suspension in addition to the T imho. What a pure and simple scumbag he is. And then of course he runs around the court for 5 minutes gesticulating and riling up the crowd as if it's WWF. When is the NBA going to stop coddling him? He gets away with stuff that is leaps and bounds beyond what anyone else can get away with. Giannis gives a glance at a guy he dunked on and is tossed. Whoever it was the other day got tossed for barely a word directed at the ref; while Draymond can do virtually anything he wants and the refs just shrug it off as Draymond being Draymond. Enough already.

By the way, turned out to be a smart move by Mitchell to run after and challenge Draymond. Forced the refs to look at the tape and see what precipitated it.
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Weirdly because the Refs go out of their way to not give 2 T's to Draymond. He should have received numerous techs before.

Guess the refs finally had enough

benhogan said:
Watching Steph run around the court making great plays, laughing, celebrating, antics, etc is funny & enjoyable to watch.

BUT man Draymond rips away any joy from a Warriors game. It's a slog. The same act every night, incessantly yelling at refs, opponents, twirling his hand for replays, throwing elbows, tripping dudes, etc. The dude should be T'd up much more ... Habitual Line Stepper.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9yQq4NxyOE
Click to expand...
 
Kliq

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Tony C said:
What's weird about it? It was a clearly intentional shove that was quite dangerous. Intent to injure is hard to know, but it was yet another Draymond douchebag move. They were behind the play and the shove was both obviously on purpose and couldn't have had any basketball purpose. Deserves a suspension in addition to the T imho. What a pure and simple scumbag he is. And then of course he runs around the court for 5 minutes gesticulating and riling up the crowd as if it's WWF. When is the NBA going to stop coddling him? He gets away with stuff that is leaps and bounds beyond what anyone else can get away with. Giannis gives a glance at a guy he dunked on and is tossed. Whoever it was the other day got tossed for barely a word directed at the ref; while Draymond can do virtually anything he wants and the refs just shrug it off as Draymond being Draymond. Enough already.

By the way, turned out to be a smart move by Mitchell to run after and challenge Draymond. Forced the refs to look at the tape and see what precipitated it.
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The Giannis ejection was one of the most confusing, puzzling referee decisions I can recall seeing. One of the established best players in the game and one of the young faces of the league got tossed for some routine mugging after a dunk?
 
Tony C

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What's also weird is the ESPN story's description:

The referees decided Mitchell's push was a common foul, but they found that Green made contact with the Cleveland guard after he stripped him of the ball and assessed him a technical foul.
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Says it was written by Kendra Andrews, but maybe they're using AI to write articles and it scraped the wrong info? Not sure if there was a strip on a prior play, but the play in question had Green and Mitchell behind the action. A different Cavs player makes the lay-up as Green shoves Mitchell and sends him tumbling. Bizarre to read something that is so out of left field. The video is right above the story ....
 
lovegtm

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Euclis20 said:
I'd agree, but I think he meant from the perspective of a Celtics fan.

Milwaukee is very mediocre when either giannis or lillard sit. Giannis has 89 points over the last two games (on just 47 shots), and the bucks lost both.
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I watched the end of the Orlando game...I have no idea who half the guys are who Milwaukee has out there. It's a really really thin, aging team. Giannis gets his shots, but it's a slog, and everyone is loaded up to him.

They're going to be in AD Pelicans territory if this keeps up.
 
lovegtm

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amfox1 said:
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Philadelphia 76ers guard Kelly Oubre Jr. was a pedestrian struck by a motor vehicle in Center City, Philadelphia tonight and is receiving treatment at a local hospital, a Sixers spokesman tells ESPN. Oubre Jr., is currently in stable condition.

Adrian Wojnarowski
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Representatives from the team, including 76ers President Daryl Morey, are with Oubre Jr., at the hospital. He is expected to miss significant time due to his injuries, but those aren’t considered to be season-ending. Local authorities are investigating the incident.
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Wow. I like bad things to happen to the Sixers, but not guy-hit-by-a-car bad things. Glad he survived and seems to be ok, in the bigger sense.
 
Devizier

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amfox1 said:
Adrian Wojnarowski
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Philadelphia 76ers guard Kelly Oubre Jr. was a pedestrian struck by a motor vehicle in Center City, Philadelphia tonight and is receiving treatment at a local hospital, a Sixers spokesman tells ESPN. Oubre Jr., is currently in stable condition.

Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn
4m

Representatives from the team, including 76ers President Daryl Morey, are with Oubre Jr., at the hospital. He is expected to miss significant time due to his injuries, but those aren’t considered to be season-ending. Local authorities are investigating the incident.
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It’s grim but my second thought is “maybe this will be the first time a driver is held legally accountable for injuring a pedestrian”.
 
HomeRunBaker

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lovegtm said:
I watched the end of the Orlando game...I have no idea who half the guys are who Milwaukee has out there. It's a really really thin, aging team. Giannis gets his shots, but it's a slog, and everyone is loaded up to him.

They're going to be in AD Pelicans territory if this keeps up.
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MarJon is finally digging into a larger role there with Middleton's minutes down. The next leap is for him to figure out how to play w Giannis and the first unit. I don't know how much is system, probably some, but when you replace a Jrue/Grayson/Jevon guard rotation with Damian/Beasley/Pain it isn't surprising that you go from one of the better defensive teams to one of the worst. As usual, coaching will be blamed but the Bucks real issue is personnel.
 
lovegtm

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HomeRunBaker said:
MarJon is finally digging into a larger role there with Middleton's minutes down. The next leap is for him to figure out how to play w Giannis and the first unit. I don't know how much is system, probably some, but when you replace a Jrue/Grayson/Jevon guard rotation with Damian/Beasley/Pain it isn't surprising that you go from one of the better defensive teams to one of the worst. As usual, coaching will be blamed but the Bucks real issue is personnel.
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Yes, to be clear: it's all about personnel for me in their case. I was worried about depth and defense for them before the season, and it's been even worse than expected.

If Giannis or Dame misses extended time at any point, this could get ugly really really fast.
 
HomeRunBaker

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lovegtm said:
Yes, to be clear: it's all about personnel for me in their case. I was worried about depth and defense for them before the season, and it's been even worse than expected.

If Giannis or Dame misses extended time at any point, this could get ugly really really fast.
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I know, I was mostly referring to the media getting over Griffin who to be fair may or may not be part of the problem as well. It's the NBA though, ultimately it is about personnel.
 
lovegtm

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HomeRunBaker said:
I know, I was mostly referring to the media getting over Griffin who to be fair may or may not be part of the problem as well. It's the NBA though, ultimately it is about personnel.
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Oh god, yeah that's dumb. This is what I meant a week or two ago when I eye-rolled at "Griffin finally listened to his players and put Brook in a drop! Problem solved, stupid coach just had to do that one thing!"

It reminds me of Elaine telling Kramer that "I'll be honest, you might be more than just one tweak away from a healthy relationship"
 
HomeRunBaker

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lovegtm said:
Oh god, yeah that's dumb. This is what I meant a week or two ago when I eye-rolled at "Griffin finally listened to his players and put Brook in a drop! Problem solved, stupid coach just had to do that one thing!"

It reminds me of Elaine telling Kramer that "I'll be honest, you might be more than just one tweak away from a healthy relationship"
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Sometimes we lose track do what is really important. This board needs more frequent Seinfeld references!!! Well done!
 
lovegtm

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"I'll be honest Adrian Griffin: you might be more than just one *tweak* away from a defensively playable backcourt rotation"
 
Sam Ray Not

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Tony C said:
What's weird about it? It was a clearly intentional shove that was quite dangerous. Intent to injure is hard to know, but it was yet another Draymond douchebag move. They were behind the play and the shove was both obviously on purpose and couldn't have had any basketball purpose. Deserves a suspension in addition to the T imho. What a pure and simple scumbag he is. And then of course he runs around the court for 5 minutes gesticulating and riling up the crowd as if it's WWF. When is the NBA going to stop coddling him? He gets away with stuff that is leaps and bounds beyond what anyone else can get away with. Giannis gives a glance at a guy he dunked on and is tossed. Whoever it was the other day got tossed for barely a word directed at the ref; while Draymond can do virtually anything he wants and the refs just shrug it off as Draymond being Draymond. Enough already.

By the way, turned out to be a smart move by Mitchell to run after and challenge Draymond. Forced the refs to look at the tape and see what precipitated it.
Click to expand...
Obviously I'm not gonna persuade anyone here that Draymond isn't the worst person on earth and deserving of every bad call he gets, but if it were anyone but Draymond (or say, a Celtic) I think most here would agree that it was a bad call. Shoving a guy hard on a loose ball is 99 times out of 100 just called a "foul," or if it's excessive, a flagrant. They cherrypicked "technical" knowing it was the one call that would get Dray run.

But the Draymond half of the call wasn't even the most egregious part of it. After the shove, Donovan Mitchell retaliated by running right at Dray and rage-hacking him hard on a 100% non-basketball play. In no scenario should that be a common foul — it's either a take foul, a technical, or a flagrant. Pretty sure I've never seen obvious retaliation rewarded by the refs in that way. In a strategic sense, you can call it "smart" (and of course "bad for Draymond" always equals "good" or "smart") but it was also the wrong call by the refs. I mean, for anyone but Draymond.
 
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slamminsammya

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Sam Ray Not said:
Obviously I'm not gonna persuade anyone here that Draymond isn't the worst person on earth and deserving of every bad call he gets, but if it were anyone but Draymond (or say, a Celtic) I think most here would agree that it was a terrible call. Shoving a guy hard on a loose ball is 99 times out of 100 just called a "foul," or if it's excessive, a flagrant. They cherrypicked "technical" knowing it was the one call that would get Dray run.

But the Draymond half of the call wasn't even the most egregious part of it. After the shove, Donovan Mitchell retaliated by running right at Dray and rage-hacking him hard on a 100% non-basketball play. In no scenario should that be a common foul — it's either a take foul, a technical, or a flagrant. Pretty sure I've never seen obvious retaliation rewarded by the refs in that way. In a strategic sense, you can call it "smart" (and of course "bad for Draymond" always equals "good" or "smart") but it was also the wrong call by the refs. I mean, for anyone but Draymond.
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I watched the replay, and I have no idea what you are talking about. the Draymond shove was absolutely a technical.
 
HomeRunBaker

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Sam Ray Not said:
Obviously I'm not gonna persuade anyone here that Draymond isn't the worst person on earth and deserving of every bad call he gets, but if it were anyone but Draymond (or say, a Celtic) I think most here would agree that it was a terrible call. Shoving a guy hard on a loose ball is 99 times out of 100 just called a "foul," or if it's excessive, a flagrant. They cherrypicked "technical" knowing it was the one call that would get Dray run.

But the Draymond half of the call wasn't even the most egregious part of it. After the shove, Donovan Mitchell retaliated by running right at Dray and rage-hacking him hard on a 100% non-basketball play. In no scenario should that be a common foul — it's either a take foul, a technical, or a flagrant. Pretty sure I've never seen obvious retaliation rewarded by the refs in that way. In a strategic sense, you can call it "smart" (and of course "bad for Draymond" always equals "good" or "smart") but it was also the wrong call by the refs. I mean, for anyone but Draymond.
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It's the human factor and why selling calls to the officials is an effective tactic even if Ty must should be a T anyway. This holds true in the other thread regarding Tatum as well. Selling calls work, letting officials know what they missed helps you get makeup calls....this isn't new stuff.
 
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