Is there drama?Am I the only person who thinks this stuff is a little silly? I mean, it is fun -- taking my daughter to the Pats HOF several years ago (right after the Falcons SB IIRC) was a complete blast, she loved it and I was, frankly, blown away by it. But the drama over who belongs in this sacred hall seems a bit ridiculous to me.
Beat me to it by 7 minutes...Raymond Berry has a much better case than Parcells but never gets mentioned. It's asinine.
Just pin this post to the top, and then close the thread.Parcells is behind a list of 50 people that didn't quit on the team during the Super Bowl while stealing a franchise player and running to fucking New Jersey. Fuck his age, fuck his accomplishments, he can eat shit, and should never be celebrated by this franchise.
Vrabel all the way. Mankins is the second most deserving ringless Patriot from the 2000's, but he is behind a bunch of people for me.
Parcells effect on the organization was wide reaching and impactful, but the majority of it was for the success he brought outside of coaching. His name actually gave the team some respect in NFL circles. He, for varying reasons, was the catalyst to getting Belichick here.
For these reasons, I'd be OK if he never got in.And while those things are great, he also mailed in the fucking SUPERBOWL so he could plan his departure to a division rival. And let's not forget that he didn't just "bring Curtis Martin" with him. He crafted one of the most infamous poison pill contracts to steal him from the Patriots. He was also a giant douchebag to Terry Glenn because the team drafted Glenn and not a defensive tackle Parcells wanted. Glenn obviously had plenty of issues, but having your own head coach gunning for you couldn't have been easy, and a small piece of me wonders how it effected Glenn and his career.
That's like saying Mo Lewis should be in the Pats hall of fame. I realize that BB would never have come to NE if Parcells wasn't here, but c'mon. If you are inducting Parcells it's because he put the Pats on the map, not because he brought BB with him in 1996.For this reason alone, Parcells deserves to be on the ballot and is a reasonable candidate for induction.
For these reasons, I'd be OK if he never got in.
It's impossible to tell the story of the New England Patriots without talking about Bill Belichick, and BB's story is diminished if you don't refer to Parcells. As far as the Patriots HoF is concerned, it seems most accurate for Parcells' name to only show up on BB's plaque. "Belichick was the 12th head coach of the NEP. He succeeded Bill Parcells. BB was an assistant to Parcells from 1983-1990 with the New York Giants, winning Super Bowls XXI and XXV [yada yada Lawrence Taylor]." Then you have to tell the story of BB's stint with the NYJ and The Napkin (non-John Burkett division).
I'm also firmly anti-Tuna but if BB can forgive him, maybe we should give it a shot?Parcells is an important piece of Patriot history, but his impact is hard to measure because it isn't based purely on wins or losses. Yes, he brought the team to a SB, but he went 32-32 in his four years here. Berry also brought the Pats to a SB and went 48-39, but I can't imagine Berry making the Pats HoF.
Parcells effect on the organization was wide reaching and impactful, but the majority of it was for the success he brought outside of coaching. His name actually gave the team some respect in NFL circles. He, for varying reasons, was the catalyst to getting Belichick here.
And while those things are great, he also mailed in the fucking SUPERBOWL so he could plan his departure to a division rival. And let's not forget that he didn't just "bring Curtis Martin" with him. He crafted one of the most infamous poison pill contracts to steal him from the Patriots. He was also a giant douchebag to Terry Glenn because the team drafted Glenn and not a defensive tackle Parcells wanted. Glenn obviously had plenty of issues, but having your own head coach gunning for you couldn't have been easy, and a small piece of me wonders how it effected Glenn and his career.
Since there's no reason to vote for him based on the onfield production, and the off field negatives (at best) balance out the positives, I'm not even sure why he's on the ballot.
There is no dynasty without Vrabel.Mankins for me. Best OL of the Pats dynasty.
I know people will hold the lack of rings against him, but he was on the team for the four highest-scoring offenses in team history (all over 500 points, and all three league-leading scoring offenses). But in coincided with the period where the D fell off from its heights.
What was that again?And let's not forget that he didn't just "bring Curtis Martin" with him. He crafted one of the most infamous poison pill contracts to steal him from the Patriots.
To be fair to "us", these aren't quite the same. Belichick's anger was due to Parcells thinking he was a great coach, and therefore taking him figuratively hostage. It was a well-intentioned duplicity as opposed to a "lie to your face" duplicity. BB also was in Cleveland most of Parcells' tenure and not here until 1996 when the Parcells/Kraft relationship was well beyond frosty. So I'm not sure how truly connected he was to that era here.I'm also firmly anti-Tuna but if BB can forgive him, maybe we should give it a shot?
(By the by, the Pats Hall of Fame always strikes me as kind of ridiculous. Not sure why we need it at all. Why not just have a hall that celebrates team accomplishments along with personal anecdotes and team history? It kind of sucks to draw a line between guys that will get in and those that won't in your own team's hall.)
The above is why I will never have the hatred of Parcells many here have. The team and franchise were an absolute fucking clown show (and that is deeply insulting to clowns) in the years leading up to Parcells' arrival. And it was his arrival and that of Drew Bledsoe (first draft pick in the Parcells regime) in which we as fans finally saw a light at the end of the tunnel that perhaps this joke of a team could actually become something. The counter is that it was Kraft that brought the needed stability when he bought the team a year later and then kept the team in New England as opposed to moving them to St. Louis.Parcells is an important piece of Patriot history, but his impact is hard to measure because it isn't based purely on wins or losses. Yes, he brought the team to a SB, but he went 32-32 in his four years here. Berry also brought the Pats to a SB and went 48-39, but I can't imagine Berry making the Pats HoF.
Parcells effect on the organization was wide reaching and impactful, but the majority of it was for the success he brought outside of coaching. His name actually gave the team some respect in NFL circles. He, for varying reasons, was the catalyst to getting Belichick here.
Yes, he was behind the poison pill contract, but it was inexcusable upon the Pats for letting Martin's contract get to that point in the first place.And while those things are great, he also mailed in the fucking SUPERBOWL so he could plan his departure to a division rival. And let's not forget that he didn't just "bring Curtis Martin" with him. He crafted one of the most infamous poison pill contracts to steal him from the Patriots. He was also a giant douchebag to Terry Glenn because the team drafted Glenn and not a defensive tackle Parcells wanted. Glenn obviously had plenty of issues, but having your own head coach gunning for you couldn't have been easy, and a small piece of me wonders how it effected Glenn and his career.
Since there's no reason to vote for him based on the onfield production, and the off field negatives (at best) balance out the positives, I'm not even sure why he's on the ballot.
This. Frankly, the fact that he was even nominated is a disgrace.Parcells is behind a list of 50 people that didn't quit on the team during the Super Bowl while stealing a franchise player and running to fucking New Jersey. Fuck his age, fuck his accomplishments, he can eat shit, and should never be celebrated by this franchise.
I have always wondered if his pride cost us that Super Bowl. Playing hurt only helps if you are better than your backup.Mankins played one of those Super Bowls (don't remember which one) on a torn ACL, if I remember the story right.
Generally agreed, but Gost should never get elected IMO and Welker and Mankins - unfortunately for them due to SB performance - are at the bottom of the list vs any of those guys for me.The Pats HoF is for career accomplishments, not just the Super Bowl. Mankins had 7 Pro-Bowls and one first team and 5 second team All-Pro selections to his name. Yeah, it sucks they lost 2 Super Bowls when he was there, but some of that was dumb luck as well.
Regarding the players that are eligible and soon to be eligible, I included my summary from an earlier post in a spoiler tag below:
First dynasty. This group is already well represented in the Pats Hall with Bledsoe, Troy Brown, McGinest, Seymour, Bruschi, Law, Light, and Faulk. So had to figure out who's left:
Adam Vinatieri: Probably should be elected the minute he is eligible (has 2 more years to wait, I believe).
Deion Branch: The lack of Pro-Bowl appearances hurts him. But he was not only Brady's first "go to" deep threat, he was also Super Bowl MVP and had a nice 2nd act here as well.
Mike Vrabel: 3 Super Bowls, one All-Pro, and 10 regular season and 2 playoff TD catches. Biggest issue is that the D from that era already has a lot of inductees.
Joe Andruzzi: The darkest of dark horses from this era, but the OL was really good, and Andruzzi was one of the rocks.
Asante Samuel: He won his rings with this group as a nickel corner, but was an All-Pro shutdown corner by the time he left after the 2007 season. His departure for the Eagles during his prime years hurts him; had he caught that interception and stayed in bounds, he likely gets serious consideration. The biggest obstacle is purely the number of deserving candidates in the subsequent eras.
Ted Johnson: Was a rock on the inside for 4 Super Bowl teams for Parcells and BB. Has zero chance of getting in; just giving him an honorable mention here.
The "middle years". Players from this era have only just started to become eligible. But there are some players here that shouldn't be overlooked:
Wes Welker: Led the league in receptions 3 times, 5 Pro Bowls, and 2 All-Pro teams during his time here. Some will hold his dropped pass against him, but he was in the conversation for MVP with 103 yards in the Game that Must Not be Named.
Logan Mankins: The best OL of the Brady/Belichick dynasty to not win a Super Bowl. Got schooled in two Super Bowls, but was also hampered by injury in both. 6 Pro Bowls, 1 All Pro. Started as Matt Light's partner and ended as Solder's. Should also be a no-brainer.
Randy Moss: Hall of Famer, but mostly for his Vikings career. Was only here for 3 seasons plus 4 games. Broke records in 2007, but then got caught up in some bizarre domestic incident just prior to the start of the playoffs. Probably a shoo-in had the Asante caught that INT. But the 3 above him on this list are more deserving, and the backlog of candidates will only grow real soon.
Jerod Mayo: Short career (8 years) that mostly spanned the middle years, and was mostly hurt towards the end. Probably in the Honorable Mention category, but needed to note his 2 Pro Bowls, one All-Pro, and 1 Super Bowl title.
The 2nd dynasty. There will be some tough omissions here for sure.
Gronk: 'Nuff sed.
Edelman: Ditto.
Gostkowski: The first "controversial" pick of this era. With 4 Pro Bowls and 2 All Pro nominations to go with his 3 rings, he would normally be a "no brainer". He made some big kicks, but also some notable misses, and lacks the signature kick that cemented Adam's place. I would still put him in, but the backlog is a real problem.
Hightower: Was the defensive mainstay of this era, and his absence always seemed most keenly felt.
D. McCourty: Another mainstay of the D from this era. Biggest issue is only 2 Pro Bowls as a safety, but the 2nd most deserving defender of this era, IMO.
Nate Solder: Worthy successor to Matt Light, but lacks the individual accolades, despite his role in keeping the QB upright during his 7 years here. The OL really suffered when he got hurt in 2015.
Rob Ninkovich: Probably in the "not a chance" category, but his 46 sacks in 8 seasons here deserve a mention along with his 2 rings.
Malcolm Butler: His short stint and mysterious benching cloud his legacy, and he never seemed to recapture the magic of his one Pro Bowl season as a full time starter. But his signature play ranks up there with The Goal and The Stolen Base.
Matt Slater: Huge impact on special teams.
Of those eligible, only Vrabel and possibly Welker really rank above Mankins, who really should be a lock to get in eventually. My own list of players that should be at the front of the line for induction (listed in order of eligibility):
Vrabel
Mankins
Vinatieri (eligible next year, I believe)
Edelman (eligible 2025)
Gronk (2026)
Hightower (2026)
McCourty (2027)
Some QB whose name I forgot (2027 if he stays retired)
Slater (likely 2028 eligibility)
Add in Welker (eligible), Ghost (2026) and some of the other possibly deserving players there is a huge backlog coming.
Welker was on his way to SB MVP until the helmet catch happened.Generally agreed, but Gost should never get elected IMO and Welker and Mankins - unfortunately for them due to SB performance - are at the bottom of the list vs any of those guys for me.
Agreed. Circumstances suck and they only let one guy in per year. Hence, you have to rank guys.Welker was on his way to SB MVP until the helmet catch happened.
Yeah literally no potential inductees from like 2015 on, so...They should just relax the rules to get the backlogged players and/or coaches from the dynasty era in. But they probably want to stretch out these guaranteed annual inductions another decade.
Pete Brock? Wow. I was just a kid, but my memory is he was a perfectly average lineman. And everybody loves Mosi, but like 50% of his HoF argument is he had a cool name.Here's the list from which the three were chosen: Logan Mankins, Mike Vrabel, Wes Welker, Lawyer Milloy, Bill Parcells, Mosi Tatupu, Russ Francis, John Smith, Julius Adams, Chuck Fairbanks and Pete Brock were all put up for consideration and the three finalists will be announced later this week.
How in the world Julius Adams is still on the outside is a mystery to me.
He's probably never getting inducted, but he did play in 154 games over 12 seasons for the Pats, so that's worth something. And he's also President of the Patriots Alumni Association.Pete Brock? Wow. I was just a kid, but my memory is he was a perfectly average lineman. And everybody loves Mosi, but like 50% of his HoF argument is he had a cool name.
Why do you have Welker so far ahead of Lawyer? Similar number of seasons. Similar number of AFC titles. Lawyer has a ring. Welker was overall a more productive player. But again similar to Vrabel vs Mankins, there may be no dynasty without Lawyer.Vrabel
Welker
Mankins
Milloy
Parcells
He played the entire 2011 season with a torn acl.I have always wondered if his pride cost us that Super Bowl. Playing hurt only helps if you are better than your backup.
And yeah, Vrabel by a mile. And I do think the Patriots hall of fame serves a purpose. In football you can‘t retire numbers with very few exceptions.
Welker seems like a great candidate in my unqualified and worthless opinion, but he sat the fourth quarter because the Broncos were getting demolished.My point isn't that Wes was better or more important than Edelman or Gronk. But if people consider Gronk/Edelman slam dunks for the Pats HoF, theres very little argument against Welker not making it. Does Edelman have rings? Yep. But so does Welker. He didn't win them HERE, but catching 8 balls for 84 yards and resting nearly the entire 4th quarter while the Broncos dismantled the Seahawks puts to bed the "can't win the big one" argument.
This is all 100% correct, but because they are only letting in one guy per year, the guys with rings are going to get elected first.Pats HoF isn't just about SB wins. People forget how fucking dominate Welker was here. Man had 5 All-pro's in the 6 seasons he spent with the Pats. He was such a large part of their offensive identity and had such a monumental impact on the entire offensive construction (even after he left). In his 6 seasons with the team, they went 76-20. Thats a 79.1% win rate. Bradys career win rate in non-Welker games is 73%. Gronk - who people cite as Bradys wing man - followed Brady his entire career and had a win percentage of 77.6%. Almost as good as Wes...but not Wes. Edelman was 78%...one percentage point away from Wes...but not quite Wes.
My point isn't that Wes was better or more important than Edelman or Gronk. But if people consider Gronk/Edelman slam dunks for the Pats HoF, theres very little argument against Welker not making it. Does Edelman have rings? Yep. But so does Welker. He didn't win them HERE, but catching 8 balls for 84 yards and resting nearly the entire 4th quarter while the Broncos dismantled the Seahawks puts to bed the "can't win the big one" argument.
Should we also pretend Welker wasn't a key cog in the 16-0 team that anyone old enough to remember will mark them as the best team of all time?
I don't think the missed SB catch is the biggest reason people don't tier Welker appropriately. If Edelman didn't take up the mantle as well as he did, people would be able to appreciate Wes's greatness a little better. When I think about how important Wes was to this team, I think about the 2010 playoff loss to the Jets. It wasn't just about getting pressure without blitzing. It was about stacking as many players 3 - 10 yards off the line and in between the hask marks. And that was because the gameplan - which worked - was to do everything in their power to take away Welker. Despite that game plan, Brady STILL threw 9 targets his way. They eventually had to live or die with the corpse of Deion Branch getting 10 targets.
I'm not passionate about Wes Welker or anything, but the man had one of the biggest impacts a player can have on the roster during our great run. Welker is a no brainer for the Pats hall.
That was the second one.Mankins played one of those Super Bowls (don't remember which one) on a torn ACL, if I remember the story right.
Yeah I'm not sure where that mistake came from. Welker doesn't have a ring either as a player or a coach.Welker seems like a great candidate in my unqualified and worthless opinion, but he sat the fourth quarter because the Broncos were getting demolished.