Correct, but presumably you can get somewhat equitable assets back when you trade Durant.But this isn't so feasible since they gave all their own picks to HOU in the extremely ill-advised Harden deal.
Correct, but presumably you can get somewhat equitable assets back when you trade Durant.But this isn't so feasible since they gave all their own picks to HOU in the extremely ill-advised Harden deal.
I don’t know who is actually calling the shots or having influence since Haralabos left but I cannot say in confidence that I trust the Mavs process after they completely botched the Brunson FA. This is a part of why they were so desperate last week….by their own making.I don't perceive Dallas as terribly run so presumably they have a decent idea about the risk associated with this transaction.
It would be fascinating to get more legit color on their thinking here because the funky fit plus the cost as well as the drama downside suggests a bit of desperation. But maybe that's not fair.
As much as I love the Tsai spite, if this is the plan, they really should have taken the Lakers deal (assuming the picks were unprotected).My suggestion for the Nets in the off-season when KD requested the trade was to just trade KD/Kyrie and start over. I don't think they are a title contender, and unless Durant can lure an available superstar to Brooklyn, they aren't going to be one in the future. The whole thing has been a disaster, but the assets you would fetch in a trade for Durant (and apparently, Kyrie) would put the team on a decent starting path to a more sustainable future. Could Durant be moved in the next few days? Wow, that would seem incredible but the Kyrie trade might open the door for that possibility.
I don't perceive Dallas as terribly run so presumably they have a decent idea about the risk associated with this transaction.
It would be fascinating to get more legit color on their thinking here because the funky fit plus the cost as well as the drama downside suggests a bit of desperation. But maybe that's not fair.
Yeah they're pretty poorly run. They deserve a ton of credit for snagging Luka, as he was undervalued in that draft by a bunch obviously. Other than that, it really has been a decade or so of trading a quarter for two dimes. They're like a family pizza place where the old man died and the kids take over and gradually run the thing into the ground a little bit at a time, not from a lack of effort but just from a lack of acumen.Dallas front office did a pretty poor job on Jalen Brunson's contract extension
Unloading Porzingis for Dinwiddie/Bertans wasn't great.
Last summer they signed a 34yr old JaVale McGee to a 3yr deal. A bit of a head-scratcher
People have strong opinions on Kidd as an HC.
There seems to be some evidence that the MAVs aren't being optimally run
https://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2022/6/27/23183260/the-mavericks-are-in-a-lose-lose-situation-with-jalen-brunson
My impression of Dallas is that it's a shitshow. Their front office is a mess, they're constantly mired in sexual harrassment issues, Cuban is involved and a clown, they hired Jason Kidd, they gave overpay extensions to Hardaway and Porzingis because they felt they had to justify that trade, then they salary dumped Porzingis, now they have few picks going forward and one of the least talented 3-15 in the league. They're basically Sacramento being dumb away from having one of the worst teams in the league.I don't perceive Dallas as terribly run so presumably they have a decent idea about the risk associated with this transaction.
It would be fascinating to get more legit color on their thinking here because the funky fit plus the cost as well as the drama downside suggests a bit of desperation. But maybe that's not fair.
It really goes back even further to the dismantling of the Dirk title team, particularly with the decision to not resign Tyson Chandler, who was the best defensive player in the NBA, helped neutralize LeBron in the Finals and was a necessary guy to play next to Dirk.My impression of Dallas is that it's a shitshow. Their front office is a mess, they're constantly mired in sexual harrassment issues, Cuban is involved and a clown, they hired Jason Kidd, they gave overpay extensions to Hardaway and Porzingis because they felt they had to justify that trade, then they salary dumped Porzingis, now they have few picks going forward and one of the least talented 3-15 in the league. They're basically Sacramento being dumb away from having one of the worst teams in the league.
There is zero evidence that they are well run.
Edit- oh yeah, forgot not offerring Brunson an extension, badly mis-judging his market and then doubling down by not trading him.
If they're being honest I'm sure the explanation is something like...Its been made abundantly clear that this board has people who are elite at critiquing front office moves, especially after the fact. These folks have been out there pointing out all the bad decisions for months and deserve their credit.
What I'd like to see - and we likely won't get it - is the actual team/player thinking here. Like has Luka's camp already issued some form of ultimatum? What was their plan absent this transaction? That sort of thing.
From where I sit, building a contender in the NBA is incredibly hard. The nature of roster size, the cap and the premium on elite talent means that one bad decision or simply one that doesn't work (injuries) can sink a season and even destroy a window.
Even if the Dallas front office are the biggest idiots that NBA experts have ever seen, presumably they know that Irving carries a lot of chemistry risk yet they made the deal. I would love to know all of the context around it including whether they think its a 3D chess move or a last resort/"eff-it" type move.
That was the Donnie Nelson regime. The current Mavs GM was hired in June of 2021.It really goes back even further to the dismantling of the Dirk title team, particularly with the decision to not resign Tyson Chandler, who was the best defensive player in the NBA, helped neutralize LeBron in the Finals and was a necessary guy to play next to Dirk.
I don’t know if Dallas is terribly run but I think it’s safe today they aren’t run particularly well (numerous “off-court” issues if you will, their team outside of Luka was pretty bad, and their draft record is heinously bad)I don't perceive Dallas as terribly run so presumably they have a decent idea about the risk associated with this transaction.
It would be fascinating to get more legit color on their thinking here because the funky fit plus the cost as well as the drama downside suggests a bit of desperation. But maybe that's not fair.
When I first was looking at the trade one of my thoughts was “Maybe Dallas thinks Kyrie will respect Kidd more than your typical head coach since Kidd was a legendary point guard too..that’s not a bad gamble” and then I remembered the Steve Nash experience& maybe Kidd will be able to get through to Kyrie & everyone will live happily ever after, but yeah...YOLO.
Not all legendary point guards are the same person/coach. But yeah, I don't really expect it to work.When I first was looking at the trade one of my thoughts was “Maybe Dallas thinks Kyrie will respect Kidd more than your typical head coach since Kidd was a legendary point guard too..that’s not a bad gamble” and then I remembered the Steve Nash experience
Yes. But it starts with competent management and intelligent ownership and apparently that has already been discussed in this threadIt's possible that Dallas may already have blown its shot at Luka and this may be the one last attempt to salvage it. I mean does Dallas have a path to getting a player better than KI in the near future?
Good point about Simmons. This is perhaps his last best chance to demonstrate he can return to form. The recent down time with more knee soreness is concerning.Nets trying to replicate the 2019 Raptors formula. A bunch of long guys that play hard, built around a single superstar. Unfortunately for the Nets, that success is probably dependent on Simmons becoming 2019 Siakam (or even better 2019 Simmons), although perhaps now he will have the ball in his hands a lot more which may help him be more impactful offensively. Will be interesting to see if it works.
Obviously you are entitled to how you view the trade but I think instead of making a blanket statement that DAL is better or worse, it seems more apt (from an analysis POV) to look at the error bars.I think Dallas is worse than they were before the trade. Kyrie is a better player than Dinwiddie, he scores a decent amount more points, although Dinwiddie has been just as efficient as Kyrie scoring the ball this year, is a better defender, much more durable and doesn't come with the self-imploding nature of Kyrie. Then you toss in DFS, probably Dallas' most important non-Luka player and their only really reliable wing defender, plus the potential picks.
Luka needed help with this Dallas team before, but this was a rash, poorly conceived move that will seal their fate when it comes to retaining Luka, unless they can somehow quickly wash their hands of Kyrie and get a considerably better player in his place.
Obviously, looking in hindsight, it's impossible to argue that DAL management has been successful in team building. And this one is a long shot to succeed, but if it does, well then I guess we'll start hearing about how smart and well-run DAL is.Yes. But it starts with competent management and intelligent ownership and apparently that has already been discussed in this thread
That one really didn’t make sense because Donnie loved his tall guys, and Chandler was definitely one of them.That was the Donnie Nelson regime. The current Mavs GM was hired in June of 2021.
I generally agree, but I'd point out, the Mavs offense is really good this year, significantly better than last year tied for 8th best in the league. The PPG thing is pace related.Mavs trad
If they're being honest I'm sure the explanation is something like...
We are 28-26 this year despite decent health & despite having Luka we're 24th in ppg. We're not doing anything this year & our avenues for acquiring impact talent are limited. We're also, I believe, 0-7 when Luka doesn't play.
Our offense was much better with the Luka/Brunson tandem & Luka/Irving is a rich man's version of that. Kyrie has shown he is an elite off the ball piece & he allows us to have Luka/Kyrie running the offense 48 minutes per game. Luka also cannot cover quick point guards, & Dinwiddie couldn't either, so Kyrie isn't really a defensive downgrade.
DFS is a fine complementary player, but hopefully we can pick up a competent wing from...somewhere or other or just play more Josh Green.
Yes...Kyrie is legit crazy...but he's also really good at basketball. Dinwiddie & DFS have been solid pieces for us & play the 2nd & 3rd most mpg for us, & we'll have to find a way to replace those 68 minutes, but if Kyrie was sane it would be a no-brainer to give up this & more for the chance to add him to Luka. So let's take the discount & hope things work out. Worst case, he'll probably be S&T'able, or movable later. We tend to take on bad contracts & ship them around for other bad contracts. Why not do it again?
& maybe Kidd will be able to get through to Kyrie & everyone will live happily ever after, but yeah...YOLO.
No way to know, he's not a FA until 2026 which will be a new CBA, but honestly the Supermax doesn't matter for his level of player, it matters to the Beal's of the world, but Luka will make it up and then some in endorsement money.How much more will Luka get from Dallas than a Super Max from another team?
I don't know about this. Lakers were offering two picks and a bunch of trash. DAL offered one unprotected pick, and two good players. BRK could turn around and trade DFS and Dinwiddie for a better haul than the one additional LAL pick, IMOAs much as I love the Tsai spite, if this is the plan, they really should have taken the Lakers deal (assuming the picks were unprotected).
Not all picks are created equal.I don't know about this. Lakers were offering two picks and a bunch of trash. DAL offered one unprotected pick, and two good players. BRK could turn around and trade DFS and Dinwiddie for a better haul than the one additional LAL pick, IMO
I agree and I will also add that in todays climate it is naive to think that the Mavs have 5-years to appease Doncic. There is a very real chance that something needs to be done this year or next before he asks to be moved.The fact that the Mavs don't really have a core of guys to go with Dončić 5 years in speaks to a fair # of questionable organizational choices.
Indeed. But a post Luka pick is just as juicy.Still plenty of uncertainty (and LA will always be a potential FA destination), but unprotected post-Lebron Laker picks have a lot of potential value.
I bet they were not unprotected. But also, if you do that trade you have to trade Durant basically, because you're totally punting this season, and.... Durant and Westbrook isn't something that's going to work. Based on what we've heard from leaks, you'd probably have to pay a pick to re-route him somewhere else. Now the deal is 1 Lakers 1st and some bench trash.... I think the Mavs deal is better.As much as I love the Tsai spite, if this is the plan, they really should have taken the Lakers deal (assuming the picks were unprotected).
I suppose Dinwiddie and DFS are decent rotation pieces that could be traded at another point, but a significant part of the value they got was minimizing the on court decline to keep KD engaged.
Haha no doubt.Indeed. But a post Luka pick is just as juicy.
But if you are trading Durant as you say, you just keep Westbrook aroundBut also, if you do that trade you have to trade Durant basically, because you're totally punting this season, and.... Durant and Westbrook isn't something that's going to work. Based on what we've heard from leaks, you'd probably have to pay a pick to re-route him somewhere else. Now the deal is 1 Lakers 1st and some bench trash
Yeah, sorry I was unclear. I was saying you have to commit to trading Durant because otherwise you're getting a single 1st and trash from re-routing Westbrook. And I think Tsai still isn't interested in moving Durant likely. His preference is still to show Durant they can win without Kyrie and are committed to himBut if you are trading Durant as you say, you just keep Westbrook around
Sorry for the derail, but I read the article you linked to, and had to share this quote from it, because it will never cease giving me joy:As 538's research showed, the league's champion teams are overwhelmingly drawn from those who have one of the league's six-or-so best players on it, with appropriate complementary players at a certain level. If there are ~6 "alphas" in the league at any given time, i.e. players who can be the best player on a championship team, then 24 teams lack one. The Mavs don't.
Ha, that's great stuff....Love itSorry for the derail, but I read the article you linked to, and had to share this quote from it, because it will never cease giving me joy:
"If there’s one Celtics move that looks bad in retrospect, it isn’t necessarily trying and failing to acquire Butler or George, it’s trading the No. 1 draft pick for Philadelphia’s No. 3 pick, with which they chose Tatum. While Tatum has a fairly promising projection, he doesn’t have the upside of No. 1 pick Markelle Fultz, whose comparables include players such as Harden, Westbrook and Wall. The trade might have made sense for a team that already had its stars in place and wanted to develop complementary players around them, but the Celtics have plenty of complementary players and are short on stars."
We aren’t privy to what happened and I’m not taking sides or being critical of Doncic. We should keep these past issues in the back pocket of our minds based on what occurs in the future with Doncic.Are we really sure Harlabob had any idea what he was doing though?
It could be Toronto but I suspect it’s a much larger exploration to package one of those guys with Durant. If Jaylen sits tonight I’m opening up my Orville Redenbacher!View: https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1622708046714511360
Kyrie deal temporarily on hold as Nets explore folding it into another deal. I'd guess they're sniffing around the Toronto guys
View: https://twitter.com/TheSteinLine/status/1622710406971097107It could be Toronto but I suspect it’s a much larger exploration to package one of those guys with Durant. If Jaylen sits tonight I’m opening up my Orville Redenbacher!
FWIW, Jaylen was already listed as questionable this morning:It could be Toronto but I suspect it’s a much larger exploration to package one of those guys with Durant. If Jaylen sits tonight I’m opening up my Orville Redenbacher!
yeah, we know, it's part of what sparked the discussion on twitter, that the Kyrie trade happened, there were rumors various teams were checking in on Durant, SAS said he thought BOS would be one of them, then Jaylen is added to the injury report.FWIW, Jaylen was already listed as questionable this morning:
View: https://twitter.com/celtics/status/1622661222825959438
Kyrie deal finalized and Jaylen officially Out tonight so that’s that lol.yeah, we know, it's part of what sparked the discussion on twitter, that the Kyrie trade happened, there were rumors various teams were checking in on Durant, SAS said he thought BOS would be one of them, then Jaylen is added to the injury report.
Even if this is a possibility (unlikely) there was no plausible tie-in to the Kyrie trade so that trade being finalized doesn’t really matter.Kyrie deal finalized and Jaylen officially Out tonight so that’s that lol.
Oops—I guess I got lost in the sudden 37 odd page or so flurry of this thread!yeah, we know, it's part of what sparked the discussion on twitter, that the Kyrie trade happened, there were rumors various teams were checking in on Durant, SAS said he thought BOS would be one of them, then Jaylen is added to the injury report.