I posted Belichick's records against his assistants (not the other way around). McDaniels had that single OT win against the Pats when he was in Denver; so Belichick is now 0-2 against McDaniels.Now 1-2.
I posted Belichick's records against his assistants (not the other way around). McDaniels had that single OT win against the Pats when he was in Denver; so Belichick is now 0-2 against McDaniels.Now 1-2.
He should be held accountable for his coaches no matter what method he uses to assemble his staff.It floors me that people are unwilling to accept that one important job a head coach has is to hire a coaching staff, and that when a head coach does something completely different in assembling his offensive coacing staff, he should be held accountable for the success of failure of that approach.
No.He should be held accountable for his coaches no matter what method he uses to assemble his staff.
I guess one question we should consider is: What if Patricia actually is learning this year? It may not look like it to us, but let's say he's an F right now. Let's say if he sticks around, he'll become a C-. Still below average, but improved. Then let's say his third year, he could be a B-. Above average. Then let's say by year four, he's actually in the B+ or A- range. He is usually regarded as a very smart football person (even if he has personality traits that make him a poor head coach), and it stands to reason that given time under BB's tutelage, he could learn the job of OC.
Let's just hypothesize that this is what his trajectory would be. Are we willing to let that play out? Or are two more years of C- to B- coaching, costing them precious years of Mac's rookie contract window, unacceptable, even if the final result is that Patricia becomes a really good OC?
(I'm not saying this IS his trajectory, but it's entirely possible.)
Subtle Colts trollNo.
You don't hire a guy in the National Football League and treat it like it's high school ball. Patricia should not be in a position to have to learn on the job. They should have someone who KNEW the job before they were hired. It was such an unforced error to start this season and has left the offense in disarray too often. Everything is regressing because the OC is a guy who doesn't really know what he's doing.
The OL depth on personnel and hiring Matty P are both two moves that were glaringly obvious and ended in disaster. I made the mistake of giving him the benefit of the doubt on the Matty P hiring. This offense is a bottom quarter unit in the NFL. Honestly if he doesn't make a drastic change to the offensive coaching staff I think his time here will be ticking. It will probably be worse in most years too as defenses often regress so they won't always be as good as this year.No.
You don't hire a guy in the National Football League and treat it like it's high school ball. Patricia should not be in a position to have to learn on the job. They should have someone who KNEW the job before they were hired. It was such an unforced error to start this season and has left the offense in disarray too often. Everything is regressing because the OC is a guy who doesn't really know what he's doing.
If this were any other team, any other coach, and any other owner, the offseason would include such an ultimatum. But as discussed, RK probably doesn't have the stomach for such a confrontation, and Belichick knows thatHonestly if he doesn't make a drastic change to the offensive coaching staff I think his time here will be ticking. It will probably be worse in most years too as defenses often regress so they won't always be as good as this year.
I am unsure who said that hiring a staff isn’t an important part of a head coach’s job, that a head coach shouldn’t be accountable for his hiring decisions, or that hiring someone without offensive coaching experience to run an offense means there was no one else available. It certainly wasn’t me.It floors me that people are unwilling to accept that one important job a head coach has is to hire a coaching staff, and that when a head coach does something completely different in assembling his offensive coacing staff, he should be held accountable for the success of failure of that approach.
But, not, apparently if the GOAT does not hire someone with offensive coaching experience to run his offense, that must mean there was no one available.
Patricia was operating as a special assistant to Belichick last season. There was speculation that he was taking the "Ernie Adams role", but presumably he was involved in a lot of aspects of the team, not just defense. And lower level coaches moving among offense, defense and (especially) special teams is not unheard of.
Not excusing the situation. But among explanations, I find the one that is based around Belichick feeling that both Patricia and Judge, who certainly could be expected to have a working familiarity with the key concepts of the offensive system that the team has deployed over the years, were a better choice than trying to find someone outside the organization. The evidence continues to build that the decision was a mistake, but I find that explanation more likely and more satisfying than just chalking it up to "hubris and arrogance" or utter incompetence.
The Andy Reid example is instructive in a way: after firing Reid, the Eagles went through 3 more coaches, 3 playoff DNQs, and 4 seasons without a single playoff win before hitting lightning in a bottle and walking away with a Lombardi. And the Eagles haven't won a playoff game since earning that trophy, although it seems likely that will change this year.
First, allegiance has nothing to do with nothing. McDaniels has "left" the organization 3 times. Daboll has had 2 stints as an assistant, and was given a recommendation by Belichick. The only departure that irked Belichick was Mangini's, and that was due to the fact that he left for the Jets 1 year after Belichick had named him defensive coordinate to replace Crennel.My recollection from when these hirings first occurred was that BB's response to the media about it was something along the lines of "coaching is coaching." It might be as simple as him not believing that specialization on one side of the ball is particularly important, that the entire game is one connected organism, and familiarity/understanding of the BB/Patriot way of doing things, coupled with an allegiance to him is more important than someone with a demonstrated proficiency in the area. Considering that BB has dabbled on the offensive side numerous times throughout his time in NE (learning Chip Kelly's "lightning" no-huddle system, working closely with Brady on weekly game plans), I suspect he really does believe coaching skill is fungible, even at this level.
Agree that the path taken by Patricia in particular is atypical. Looking at the profiles of the other 31 offensive coordinators in the NFL, and you can see some trends. Nearly all had a fairly long tenure as positional coach, most commonly QB coach and/or passing game coordinator. Others were former TE, WR, and RB coaches. Those that had less experience at those positions had NCAA positions as offensive coordinator.The obvious difference is that low level coaches switching between offense and defense is not that uncommon, but switching coordinators with virtually no experience on the other side of the ball is unprecedented (other than years ago in Philadelphia with Castillo, and that was a disaster). Thus, it might make some sense for Judge but not for Patricia, although he was technically never given the title of OC (how clever). Belichick was not only wrong, but failed to make adjustments in preseason or throughout the season when things were obviously going so poorly. I expect him to bring in a competent OC (and staff) next season, but if he cannot admit and correct the mistake then he should no longer be making decisions for the organization.
Uh, OK. Good luck with that. Unless he quits or gets fired, BB will be making the football decisions. I put the odds of him getting fired at <1%. Odds of quitting/retire <5%.but if he cannot admit and correct the mistake then he should no longer be making decisions for the organization.
Guessing the Giants situation played a factor in Flores not returning, but hard to be 100% sure.I mentioned this in another thread--but I'm still mystified that he didn't make Flores a senior football advisor as he did with Patricia in 2021. The departures over the previous two seasons of Adams, McDaniels, Scar, Fears, and the crew that followed McDaniels to Vegas were more than just a brain and talent drain--they created a deep and broad leadership void that Belichick left himself alone to fill. Whatever their other football merits, Patricia and Judge have proven themselves to be (at least to me) piss-poor leaders in their respective stints as head coaches, while Flores's players both in NE and Miami largely speak of him in glowing terms--to the point that I still find myself wishing that he'll be BB's successor.
And Belichick's practice of having assistants work their way up on both sides of the ball--three counting special teams--looks to have been a successful method until this season. Regardless, it's been increasingly clear since training camp that Patricia and Judge were in over their heads and have failed, abysmally failed . What seems lost on many who've been posting about the Pats, Mac Jones, and this year's comparative train wreck of a season, however, is that Belichick is still the same consummate football obsessive with a maniacal desire to innovate, teach, and win. I'll be shocked and disappointed if there aren't major changes to the offensive and ST coaching staffs this offseason--and would be very surprised if the wheels aren't already in motion. If not, as @SMU_Sox said, the clock on his glorious tenure should be ticking.
Yeah, I'm kind of looking forward to seeing how he responds.To me, one of BB's defining traits has been that he's not a rigid "system" guy. He's always pivoted to adapt the team's style to the personnel he has, from year to year and game to game - and if something's not working he scraps it. Age and league trends notwithstanding, he's a smart guy and I don't think he likes losing. I will be shocked if he doesn't revamp the staff after this season.
One thing he might do is make big changes but ones that aren't visible to us. The little we know about how offensive plays get called is that (1) it seems like a potentially complicated process, (2) matty p seems tobe making the actual final play call, (3) calls are getting in late too often and (4) there are too many formation penalties. BB could entirely change the process they use and the responisbilities each have without changing single coach (i.e. Matty P out at OL, Judge designs the entire scheme, Matty P just game day play caller) and we wouldn't be the wiser.To me, one of BB's defining traits has been that he's not a rigid "system" guy. He's always pivoted to adapt the team's style to the personnel he has, from year to year and game to game - and if something's not working he scraps it. Age and league trends notwithstanding, he's a smart guy and I don't think he likes losing. I will be shocked if he doesn't revamp the staff after this season.
That’s correct. What’s odd, though, was the decision to switch the offensive philosophy while naming offensive coaches that didn’t have much experience on that side of the ball. One or the other wouldn’t be as shocking. If, with the departure of Josh, the Patriots said we are going to move to a more Kubiak zone blocking scheme because it fits our personnel, that could make sense. But then they didn’t bring in an OC that has coached it. Or, if they said we are sticking with the same Erhardt-Perkins offense and we are bringing in two coaches who have a long history in our franchise and systems to bridge from McDaniels, I could also buy that. What seems strange is changing both.To me, one of BB's defining traits has been that he's not a rigid "system" guy. He's always pivoted to adapt the team's style to the personnel he has, from year to year and game to game - and if something's not working he scraps it. Age and league trends notwithstanding, he's a smart guy and I don't think he likes losing. I will be shocked if he doesn't revamp the staff after this season.
Folk has been awesome, he's 2nd in the NFL in points. Hasn't missed a PAT.(which very few kickers can say) Is 30-35 on FGs. Folk is without a doubt the 2nd best player on offense behind Rahm.Does anyone buy into the Curran theory that one reason there are uncharacteristic mistakes is that the team doesn't believe that the coaching staff knows what it's doing? That the whole organization is screwed up because why should players be accountable when BB has clearly screwed the pooch here. Did Meyers try to do too much because what are the odds that the offense would win in overtime? I look at the special teams and they have been a shit show since the Jets last-second win. Folk has been OK, Palardy is awful and Bailey was terrible all year before being placed on IR. You could make a case that the Raiders punt block and the Minnesota kick off return TD possibly cost them 1 or 2 games. This team is one of the worst teams in situational football in the NFL.
Tom Curran is not someone I look to for analysis. He used to be a good beat guy but now he is in it for the hot takes. Phil Perry is lightyears ahead of him on that network/site.Does anyone buy into the Curran theory that one reason there are uncharacteristic mistakes is that the team doesn't believe that the coaching staff knows what it's doing? That the whole organization is screwed up because why should players be accountable when BB has clearly screwed the pooch here. Did Meyers try to do too much because what are the odds that the offense would win in overtime? I look at the special teams and they have been a shit show since the Jets last-second win. Folk has been OK, Palardy is awful and Bailey was terrible all year before being placed on IR. You could make a case that the Raiders punt block and the Minnesota kick off return TD possibly cost them 1 or 2 games. This team is one of the worst teams in situational football in the NFL.
Slater added: "I heard Bill (Belichick) and (special teams coordinator) Cam (Achord) yelling, 'Bump it!' They bumped it. Obviously, in that situation, we want to let the clock bleed out, but I just think it's just unfortunate. That's nobody's fault. That's miscommunication at the wrong time between the refs and our coaches. It is what it is.
"The play clock was already down to, like, four (seconds). Our guys are thinking, 'We gotta go.' And they bumped it late. Half our guys were assuming the clock was getting bumped, and we were going to let it keep bleeding, including myself. And then obviously Joe is doing his job, doing what he's supposed to because the clock is down."
Peppers said he and the official over the ball had a brief conversation in the moment, while the Raiders were being allowed to substitute, and he was led to believe the play-clock would be reset.
"The ref was over the ball," Peppers said. "I told the ref, 'The clock is still running.' He said, 'All right. I know. I know. Relax.'
"When he was backing out he [raised his hands over his head], which means the clock is supposed to reset. But I guess Joe probably had his head down or something. That's still on me. I still gotta be ready, but we were supposed to get a fresh clock, once the ref stopped. When he was walking out, the clock had reset, I was about to get back in my stance, and the ball was snapped."
Peppers added: "[The official] was over the ball because we were making substitutions. You gotta give the defense a chance to sub. But as he was standing over the ball, the play-clock was still running. I don't know if the TV copy caught it, but you can maybe see me saying, 'The play-clock is still going. We need a fresh play-clock.' That's just unfortunate."
O'Shea got a promotion in Cleveland - he's passing game coordinator in addition to WR coach.For these reasons, I didn't understand why the Pats didn't bring back Chad O'Shea after he was fired by the Dolphins after the 2019 season. Perhaps BB just didn't think very highly of him. But if O'Shea had been on the staff in 2020 and 2021, he would have been a natural choice to succeed Josh.
I have no idea if he is a good coach, or if the offense would have been better this year if he was here. But I remember being a bit confused / disappointed when they didn't bring him back. BB employed him for 10 years, and he coached in 5 SBs with 3 rings. He never progressed beyond WR coach, but he was more or less blocked by BoB / Josh the entire time.
We can't tell very easily from the outside what the issues are or whose fault it is, but I imagine Belichick et al have a pretty good idea.The problem with hiring Patricia is it violates basic principles of inference. If we want to know how good a quarterback the Patriots have, we can’t simultaneously figure out how good their OL and offensive coaching staff are. Both of those latter should be held constant, otherwise you end up chasing your own tail blaming all three and not knowing how good any of them are. The time to test Patricia on offense was when Brady was here. The time to figure out if your quarterback is good is when you can trust the rest of the offense. If by some miracle McDaniels and Scar were still here, the Patriots would have a much, much clearer sense of what they had with Mac and his O line. Instead we know that nothing’s working but have no idea who’s to blame (although it’s is looking increasingly likely the answer is “everyone”).
The only thing that makes sense to me is that Bill felt like the offense had gotten away from him under McDaniels and he wanted to be more plugged in and set the direction more clearly. Appointing a couple blank slate offensive minds would make sense through that lens. I go back and forth on how much he expected the O to struggle this year - I think the OL issues were something of a surprise, but he had to know he was locked in to the disastrous TE and Agholor signings from the previous offseason.That’s correct. What’s odd, though, was the decision to switch the offensive philosophy while naming offensive coaches that didn’t have much experience on that side of the ball. One or the other wouldn’t be as shocking. If, with the departure of Josh, the Patriots said we are going to move to a more Kubiak zone blocking scheme because it fits our personnel, that could make sense. But then they didn’t bring in an OC that has coached it. Or, if they said we are sticking with the same Erhardt-Perkins offense and we are bringing in two coaches who have a long history in our franchise and systems to bridge from McDaniels, I could also buy that. What seems strange is changing both.
First, allegiance has nothing to do with nothing. McDaniels has "left" the organization 3 times. Daboll has had 2 stints as an assistant, and was given a recommendation by Belichick. The only departure that irked Belichick was Mangini's, and that was due to the fact that he left for the Jets 1 year after Belichick had named him defensive coordinate to replace Crennel.
Brian Daboll started in New England as a defensive assistant before becoming wide receivers coach. Eric Mangini started as an offensive assistant in Cleveland, switched over to defense under Parcells with the Jets, and most recently was tight ends coach with the 49'ers before becoming their defensive coordinator in 2015. Matt Patricia was assistant OL coach before becoming LB coach. Josh McDaniels started in New England as a defensive assistant. Joe Judge has been a defensive assistant and had added WR coaching responsibilities to his task list in his final year in New England.
The switching between offense and defense among coaching assistants is not entirely limited to Belichick's staff either. That same 49'ers coaching crew noted above had Mick Lombardi as a defensive assistant, before he switched back to offense the following year. The DL coach for the Chiefs started as a running backs coach. Todd Downing, offensive coordinator for the Titans, has had some stints as a defensive assistant.
The above does not mean Patricia is a good coach or that he should have been named offensive coordinator. Just pointing out that pure specialization is not the rule among coaches.
Sometimes in these play clock situations, the team just needs to live with the 5 yards for delay. It's just not a big deal in many situations, especially a punting situation. Like third and 18 in the third quarter. The QB sees the clock running down and calls a time out that is probably going to turn out to be more valuable than the 5 yards. Or worse, snaps too early and there is a mistake.Tom Curran is not someone I look to for analysis. He used to be a good beat guy but now he is in it for the hot takes. Phil Perry is lightyears ahead of him on that network/site.
Can't speak to the Vikings KO return TD but the punt block Sunday was partly due to some play clock confusion caused by the refs that caused Cardona to snap the ball before anyone on the Pats thought he would. Article below from Phil and a snippet.
https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/patriots/blocked-punt-play-result-some-strange-clock-work-officials
Because there's no evidence that it's true?This is an entirely mediocre team, led by an entirely mediocre coaching staff and front office. Bellichick has completely spit the bit after Brady. The defense is good against mediocre backup QBs and average against good QBs. The offense is the worst I remember since the Dick MacPherson Pats. Special teams lost several games this year, including last week's game. All coaches lose it. Bill lost it. Time to try someone else. Why is this so hard to recognize?
Well, if YOU don’t, I guess we totally should move on. I mean “Moonlight Graham” said so. I guess that’s the bottom line.24-23 is the definition of mediocre. How is that not obvious? Do you have any faith that the APtriots could win a playoff game in the foreseeable future? I don't. Time to move on.
24-23 is mediocre. But it's pretty amazing *when you're in total rebuilding mode*. They're managing to rebuild *while remaining competitive*. For him to be at about .500 with Cam and a rookie Mac Jones as his QBs for two of those seasons is pretty amazing actually and it speaks to how good BB is. When your worst seasons are .500 while you're rebuilding, that means you're one hell of a coach.24-23 is the definition of mediocre. How is that not obvious? Do you have any faith that the APtriots could win a playoff game in the foreseeable future? I don't. Time to move on.
This is where I disagree. You can't say he's a hell of a coach and accept he has a mediocre record. He built this team and coaches it. So many dumb plays. So many uncompetitive games against quality opponents. And, if you are in total rebuilding mode, why do you overspend on Jonnu Smith, Agholor etc? Spoiler alert: because the past several years' drafts were abysmal.24-23 is mediocre. But it's pretty amazing *when you're in total rebuilding mode*. They're managing to rebuild *while remaining competitive*. For him to be at about .500 with Cam and a rookie Mac Jones as his QBs for two of those seasons is pretty amazing actually and it speaks to how good BB is. When your worst seasons are .500 while you're rebuilding, that means you're one hell of a coach.
What signs show you there is a path toward Super Bowl contention? To me, the #1 ingredient is talent, and BB has been mediocre or worse at drafting for over a decade now. Then #2 is coaching. Does this team seem well-coached to you? How many more years of "rebuilding" has he earned? In my mind, it is dumb to pay for past performance. Pay for what you think the coach and GM will deliver in the future. Watching them throw away games because I'm grateful he beat the Falcons in SB LI seems like the exact opposite approach BB has taken throughout his career.Yeah, when your worst seasons are .500 rebuilding seasons, you're a hell of a coach. If .500 was his peak, then yeah, you've got an argument. But....you don't.
They are the fifth oldest team in the NFL. Lots of rebuilding left to do.24-23 is mediocre. But it's pretty amazing *when you're in total rebuilding mode*. They're managing to rebuild *while remaining competitive*. For him to be at about .500 with Cam and a rookie Mac Jones as his QBs for two of those seasons is pretty amazing actually and it speaks to how good BB is. When your worst seasons are .500 while you're rebuilding, that means you're one hell of a coach.
I didn’t say he was a crap coach. I said he has been mediocre as the head of the Patriots for the past 3 years. He is in charge of everything. So if the team is mediocre, his performance is mediocre is too. Wow, he won 10 games with a rookie QB! Did you think that team had any chance of advancing in the playoffs? Of course not. They beat bad teams and lost to good teams. Because they do not have enough talent. Because BB didn’t assemble enough talent. And then this year BB didn’t assemble a competent coaching staff anywhere except on Defense. It’s clear that he has been completely mediocre. The bar is higher here.How many years of rebuilding has he earned? A hell of a lot more than you are apparently willing to give him.
But you’re right. One year after winning ten games and making the playoffs with a rookie QB, Belichick has completely lost it and has fallen totally off the cliff. What a crap coach he is now.
You can't fill every hole on the roster through the draft, they needed tight ends and receivers as they had missed on Harry in 2019 and Asiasi and Keene in 2020 so they wound up with the large FA class in 21.This is where I disagree. You can't say he's a hell of a coach and accept he has a mediocre record. He built this team and coaches it. So many dumb plays. So many uncompetitive games against quality opponents. And, if you are in total rebuilding mode, why do you overspend on Jonnu Smith, Agholor etc? Spoiler alert: because the past several years' drafts were abysmal.
I didn't think Henry was disastrous last year.i thought he played quite wellO'Shea got a promotion in Cleveland - he's passing game coordinator in addition to WR coach.
We can't tell very easily from the outside what the issues are or whose fault it is, but I imagine Belichick et al have a pretty good idea.
The only thing that makes sense to me is that Bill felt like the offense had gotten away from him under McDaniels and he wanted to be more plugged in and set the direction more clearly. Appointing a couple blank slate offensive minds would make sense through that lens. I go back and forth on how much he expected the O to struggle this year - I think the OL issues were something of a surprise, but he had to know he was locked in to the disastrous TE and Agholor signings from the previous offseason.
They have Slater, dmc, folk that are quite old. There are a lot of young guys on this roster.They are the fifth oldest team in the NFL. Lots of rebuilding left to do.
You said he’s “lost it”.I didn’t say he was a crap coach. I said he has been mediocre as the head of the Patriots for the past 3 years. He is in charge of everything. So if the team is mediocre, his performance is mediocre is too. Wow, he won 10 games with a rookie QB! Did you think that team had any chance of advancing in the playoffs? Of course not. They beat bad teams and lost to good teams. Because they do not have enough talent. Because BB didn’t assemble enough talent. And then this year BB didn’t assemble a competent coaching staff anywhere except on Defense. It’s clear that he has been completely mediocre. The bar is higher here.
Folk, Hoyer, and Slater really skew that. They’ve added tons of young talent. But yes they still have lots of rebuilding left to do.They are the fifth oldest team in the NFL. Lots of rebuilding left to do.
Show your work.Spoiler alert: because the past several years' drafts were abysmal.
In terms of being the greatest in the league, BB has lost it.You said he’s “lost it”.
One metric is Career Approximate Value Over Expected (CAVOE). Check out the Patriots over the past ten years. Really good until 5 years ago, then not so much (2017 -15.4, 2018 -4.6, 2019 -24.4, 2020 -6.3, 2021 1.7): https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/33297949/nfl-draft-which-teams-gotten-best-value-2012-rank-all-32Show your work.
LOL ok.In terms of being the greatest in the league, BB has lost it.
If Bill was fired today, and he said he was ready to keep coaching. Where does the bidding start? Numbers would be astronomical.LOL ok.
He'd instantly be the highest paid coach in the NFL (if he isn't right now anyway). And all the Pats fans who wanted him gone would see him do wonders with his new team and see the Pats' rebuild take even longer and they'd think, why can't we get guys like that?If Bill was fired today, and he said he was ready to keep coaching. Where does the bidding start? Numbers would be astronomical.