2022-2023 General Celtics thread

Eddie Jurak said:

This is a game the Celtics would have lost a year ago.

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Agreed. Great quote from Brogdon here:

“Super important [win]. This is a young team we played tonight, but they’re talented. But they don’t have a lot of expectations as far as winning. So it was important that we got this win. This was, I think, a more important win even than the Miami win, just to show that we’re mature, experienced, and ready to take that next step this year.”

Jimbodandy said:

If you want the Rick Pitino Negativity crown, it is yours. And while I think that you're seeing things through poop colored glasses here, I commend you on your prose.

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I was 100% joking for the record(you never know on the internet lol), but thank you for the prose appreciation.

Jimbodandy said:

Some may have concern about the defense for the first few games, but I'm still not concerned. Still no TL and tonight no Al. There were a few too many easy ones tonight for Orlando, but I think that there was same damn good ball luck against contested shots as well. And frankly...it seemed like the Celtics core knew that this game wasn't going to be a thing. Nobody likes to see teams take their foot off the gas pedal ever, because it can come back to haunt you and can reveal a lack of urgency in general. But the good teams, they know. They know that despite a really nice young roster, Orlando isn't a good team right now. Even nice performances by honest, real NBA players like Banchero and Wagner, was rather inefficient totals in the end. 23 on 19, 18 on 17. Sure, for a couple of guys their age, it's fucking fantastic, but that's not the point. The good guys knew that they could turn it on when necessary, and only Terrence Ross playing like he won a bet with God and Orlando outrebounding them like they were a freshman team even kept it close. When the time came, Jayson went bonkers, they got a few stops, and bam, it's over.

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Well, there are some significant personnel changes from last year's team at its defensive best (most notably the Rob injury and Al being a year older) and we haven't yet seen the team get locked in in the defensive end yet. So it is a concern in the sense that they will need to figure it out eventually. But it is not a huge concern because they still have plenty of time.

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The refs screwed up the rules towards the end of last night's game. With the Celtics holding a small lead and 3 minutes and change left, the Celtics inbounded the ball after an Orlando basket. The game clock does not stop after made baskets until there are under 2 minutes left. But the 24 second clock and the 8 second backcourt clock do not start until the ball is touched after it is put in play. With all of the Orlando players in their defensive zone, the Celtics inbounded the ball and let it sit on the floor with the game clock running. Smart was standing behind the ball and they had another player in front of it. They were just going to let the clock run until Orlando sent a defender up to play the ball. Orlando didn't know what was going on, and neither did at least one official, who waited 8 seconds and then whistled the Celtics for a violation. The refs conferred and waved the violation off, but they stopped the Celtics from running time off the clock.

However, it was all good in the end because Mazzulla was sitting on a "use it or lose it" timeout that would vanish at the 3 minute mark, and the ref stopped play with 3:07 remaining. Mazzulla had inexplicably removed White from the game in favor of Vonleh before the previous possession, and at the stoppage he called time out and reinserted White, who had his huge dunk on the next offensive possession.

Anyway, this feels like the sort of play that will lead to an unnecessary change of the rules because it looks bad. All the defensive team needs to do is guard the ball to avoid letting the other team run the clock like this, so it doesn't need a rule change.

Eddie Jurak said:

This is a game the Celtics would have lost a year ago.

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Not the Cs of the 2nd half of last year. They were killing everyone.

Eddie Jurak said:

The refs screwed up the rules towards the end of last night's game. With the Celtics holding a small lead and 3 minutes and change left, the Celtics inbounded the ball after an Orlando basket. The game clock does not stop after made baskets until there are under 2 minutes left. But the 24 second clock and the 8 second backcourt clock do not start until the ball is touched after it is put in play. With all of the Orlando players in their defensive zone, the Celtics inbounded the ball and let it sit on the floor with the game clock running. Smart was standing behind the ball and they had another player in front of it. They were just going to let the clock run until Orlando sent a defender up to play the ball. Orlando didn't know what was going on, and neither did at least one official, who waited 8 seconds and then whistled the Celtics for a violation. The refs conferred and waved the violation off, but they stopped the Celtics from running time off the clock.

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I don't know if the rules will chanve but I'm just glad the announcers figured out the strategy this year because last year, the announcers were befuddled why Schroder would walk the dog with more than 2 minutes left.

Also, two things about the play. (1) Gw throws the ball with a small amount of backspin so it dies ion the court,and (2) after inbounding the ball, GW becomes the "lead blocker" - he stands in front of the ball so that if any one races to the ball, he can block them while Marcus picks up the ball. Interestig play. I wonder how much time they could have run off the clock if the refs didn't screw up the whistle.

Eddie Jurak said:

Well, there are some significant personnel changes from last year's team at its defensive best (most notably the Rob injury and Al being a year older) and we haven't yet seen the team get locked in in the defensive end yet. So it is a concern in the sense that they will need to figure it out eventually. But it is not a huge concern because they still have plenty of time.

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The refs screwed up the rules towards the end of last night's game. With the Celtics holding a small lead and 3 minutes and change left, the Celtics inbounded the ball after an Orlando basket. The game clock does not stop after made baskets until there are under 2 minutes left. But the 24 second clock and the 8 second backcourt clock do not start until the ball is touched after it is put in play. With all of the Orlando players in their defensive zone, the Celtics inbounded the ball and let it sit on the floor with the game clock running. Smart was standing behind the ball and they had another player in front of it. They were just going to let the clock run until Orlando sent a defender up to play the ball. Orlando didn't know what was going on, and neither did at least one official, who waited 8 seconds and then whistled the Celtics for a violation. The refs conferred and waved the violation off, but they stopped the Celtics from running time off the clock.

However, it was all good in the end because Mazzulla was sitting on a "use it or lose it" timeout that would vanish at the 3 minute mark, and the ref stopped play with 3:07 remaining. Mazzulla had inexplicably removed White from the game in favor of Vonleh before the previous possession, and at the stoppage he called time out and reinserted White, who had his huge dunk on the next offensive possession.

Anyway, this feels like the sort of play that will lead to an unnecessary change of the rules because it looks bad. All the defensive team needs to do is guard the ball to avoid letting the other team run the clock like this, so it doesn't need a rule change.

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Mazzulla removed White for Vonleh because the use-it-or-lose it timeout was coming. He was likely planning to call timeout once Orlando pressured the backcourt.

wade boggs chicken dinner said:

Not the Cs of the 2nd half of last year. They were killing everyone.

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That’s why I said “a year ago.” But the second half Celtics almost never played in these type of close and late situations.

Eddie Jurak said:

That’s why I said “a year ago.” But the second half Celtics almost never played in these type of close and late situations.

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I wasn't sure if "a year ago" meant "12 monts go" or "last season." The Cs of October 2021 seem like 2 or 3 seasons ago to me.

bigq said:

Thundercocked is a new one for me. I don’t fully understand what it means but it definitely has potential.

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I’m guessing it was meant for the Ime thread.

HomeRunBaker said:

I’m guessing it was meant for the Ime thread.

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That sounds about right.

The bench continues to be a competitive advantage for this team outscoring opponents in each game.

34-11 in the win vs the 76ers
27-21 in the win vs the Heat
39-21 in the win vs the Magic

I am interested to see how long this trend continues.

Hauser is filling the exact role we couldn’t ever get out of Nesmith. Knock down 2-3 open kick out 3’s a game; I’m really excited we might finally have the legit bench sniper we’ve been missing.

Except that Nesmith was far more athletic, could be a real pest on defense and could rebound better. The Nesmith of our dreams was better than the real Hauser who in turn is far more useful than the real Nesmith.

Tatum obviously wasn’t going to let Dukie Banchero upstage him this game. After Paulo got a couple of easy baskets, and Tatum did not get the call in front of his bench when he was fouled on a three point shot early, JT decided to impose his will on this game. I like this response to a non-call rather than Tatum just throwing up his hands in the back court complaining to the ref.

After Orlando played really well offensively in the first half, I thought the Celtics had a chance to lock this came up in the third quarter, when Tatum went on a scoring binge. They were up four baskets and got a stop. I know the Celtics are trying to get open three-point opportunities in early offense, but Marcus Smart, in this spot, hoisting up a three when he was one for seven from deep, four seconds into the shot clock, after Tatum just scored on three consecutive trips, was point guard malpractice. He bricked it, and bricaked another one a few possessions later, Orlando scored a couple of times, and the Celtics were back again into a dog fight. They won the game, but if they want to be the kind of team that dominates, they should’ve close this game out in the third quarter when they were on that run. Push the eight point lead to 16, and make it easier on your rotation. If Cole Anthony didn’t miss that late dunk when he was wide open, this would’ve been a one or two possession game in the final minute.

That quibble aside, I thought the Celtics responded really well on a back to back against that aggressive young team that really needed a victory. Orlando played like it was their Super Bowl, but Boston had enough veteran savvy, and enough talent to hold him at bay. Jaylen Brown had a horrible shooting night, but was the team leader in plus minus. This is the third game in a row that two Celtics have combined for over 60 points.

The defense wasn’t great, but I did notice a lot of really good switching out on the perimeter, especially in the second half. It looks like the defense is coming together. There was some good gang rebounding in this game, but the defensive glass was a little bit of a problem. It wasn’t for lack of trying. The Celtics were whistled for face guarding blockout fouls at least twice.

Grant looks so locked in offensively. Three games in, his eFG is 1.14, on 85/89/85% shooting. 12.7 points in 26.7 mpg. 8-10 from three, 4-4 from two. He looks so much better attacking close outs. I like how Coach Joe is getting Hauser acclimated to rotation minutes, although I would’ve liked to have seen him earlier in the third as a zone buster. He is 5-7 for the year from three. The PP, Hauser, GW, MB, Blake line up is a bomb squad. Brogdon will have a lot of opportunity off drives with this squad.

I have to again renew my objection to Luke Kornet. It makes little sense to me to try to develop that guy, when you have someone like Kabengele who is a live bodied big and should be able to fit their scheme better. There are a lot of opportunities for cleanup baskets, but I don’t see Kornet being the kind of guy to get them. It might’ve been just rust from him coming off his ankle sprain, but that guy looked horrible last night.

bosockboy said:

Hauser is filling the exact role we couldn’t ever get out of Nesmith. Knock down 2-3 open kick out 3’s a game; I’m really excited we might finally have the legit bench sniper we’ve been missing.

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At $2 million a year, for three years. That should be very good value.

This was a back-to-back being played less than 21 hours after they got off the floor from the Miami game. We shouldn't be expecting locked in defense or a ton of energy. I was expecting a loss and Tatum putting the team on his back was tremendously encouraging to see in terms of his growth. If he's consistently carrying the team when they don't have it this season, he's actually pushing himself into that top five in the NBA conversation (and not just being the "potential" guy anymore). That's the difference between All-NBA and MVP.

If/when Time Lord comes back, the only thing this team will be missing is Malik Fitts bench celebrations. This start to the season, with some difficult matchups on the slate and 3 games in 5 days, is super encouraging.

Orlando was also playing the second game of back-to-back as well, travelling from Atlanta.

Koufax said:

Orlando was also playing the second game of back-to-back as well, travelling from Atlanta.

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Yeah, but the average age for their team is only 24. We average like 26 or 27, right?

Eddie Jurak said:

Well, there are some significant personnel changes from last year's team at its defensive best (most notably the Rob injury and Al being a year older) and we haven't yet seen the team get locked in in the defensive end yet. So it is a concern in the sense that they will need to figure it out eventually. But it is not a huge concern because they still have plenty of time.

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The refs screwed up the rules towards the end of last night's game. With the Celtics holding a small lead and 3 minutes and change left, the Celtics inbounded the ball after an Orlando basket. The game clock does not stop after made baskets until there are under 2 minutes left. But the 24 second clock and the 8 second backcourt clock do not start until the ball is touched after it is put in play. With all of the Orlando players in their defensive zone, the Celtics inbounded the ball and let it sit on the floor with the game clock running. Smart was standing behind the ball and they had another player in front of it. They were just going to let the clock run until Orlando sent a defender up to play the ball. Orlando didn't know what was going on, and neither did at least one official, who waited 8 seconds and then whistled the Celtics for a violation. The refs conferred and waved the violation off, but they stopped the Celtics from running time off the clock.

However, it was all good in the end because Mazzulla was sitting on a "use it or lose it" timeout that would vanish at the 3 minute mark, and the ref stopped play with 3:07 remaining. Mazzulla had inexplicably removed White from the game in favor of Vonleh before the previous possession, and at the stoppage he called time out and reinserted White, who had his huge dunk on the next offensive possession.

Anyway, this feels like the sort of play that will lead to an unnecessary change of the rules because it looks bad. All the defensive team needs to do is guard the ball to avoid letting the other team run the clock like this, so it doesn't need a rule change.

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I appreciated that the one fucking moron got a visible on-court lecture from the ref closest and then the one farthest. It was a clear dressing-down. Inadvertent whistles happen. Not-knowing-the-damn-rules whistles shouldn't.

But you're right. This rule could go the way of the dodo if this time-killing approach becomes more widespread. We'll see.

Koufax said:

Orlando was also playing the second game of back-to-back as well, travelling from Atlanta.

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Right, but they were still the home team, playing in front of a fired up crowd that was excited to see their 1 overall pick. I personally wasn't expected the Cs to blow them out, partly because I think Orlando will be competitive this year but also because the Cs have had a difficult schedule to start.

benhogan said:

https://www.celticsblog.com/2022/10/22/23418615/a-just-win-effort-10-takeaways-from-boston-celtics-orlando-magic

Marcus with 8 assists but 9 3pt attempts? Don't love him settling for 3s with so much shooting around him

Blake's energy on the bench is great, made a good hustle play late in the 3rd. We can live with 7-8 mpg of diving on the floor, taking charges, and solid passes/screens from an ex-superstar. Easing him into certain situations with limited minutes is the best way to take advantage of whatever he has left. Still want another BIG for Xmas

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Is it settling when he's wide open?

He's shot 38% on wide open 3s the last two seasons, I'd classify 7 of his shots as wide open last night. He toom one bad one in the first quarter and a backcourt heave at the end of the first half (a rare guy who actually doesn't wait until the buzzer goes off before releasing the shot, my stars!)

He's not taking shots away from anyone. He's averaging 9 shots a game so far. If he takes many less, he turns into a Simmonsesque guy you don't even bother guarding.

It's fine. I hope it's not another season of Smart Watch every time he has a bad shooting night.

mcpickl said:

I hope it's not another season of Smart Watch every time he has a bad shooting night.

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Your hope will be crushed. This is in full effect here as noted yesterday.

There appears to be people on this board who know basketball and yet want Smart taking no more than zero shots per game. And then there is the smaller subset who want Smart gone but they are mostly quiet these days because even they see his value.

mcpickl said:

Is it settling when he's wide open?

He's shot 38% on wide open 3s the last two seasons, I'd classify 7 of his shots as wide open last night. He toom one bad one in the first quarter and a backcourt heave at the end of the first half (a rare guy who actually doesn't wait until the buzzer goes off before releasing the shot, my stars!)

He's not taking shots away from anyone. He's averaging 9 shots a game so far. If he takes many less, he turns into a Simmonsesque guy you don't even bother guarding.

It's fine. I hope it's not another season of Smart Watch every time he has a bad shooting night.

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Seconded. I've complained about Smart's shooting in the past, but there was no attempt to ballhog or take bad shots last night. Much like when Kyrie and Hayward and Kemba were here, he's been happy to defer to Brogdon and gave the ball up to White a bunch last night because White was clearly having such a great night. I even remember several possession where he had open shots and decided to pass since he wanted to see if they could find a better one.

I actually expect he'll have a pretty good shot at his best percentages in years. He's going to get a boatload of wide open shots, and more from the corners too.

mcpickl said:

Is it settling when he's wide open?

He's shot 38% on wide open 3s the last two seasons, I'd classify 7 of his shots as wide open last night. He toom one bad one in the first quarter and a backcourt heave at the end of the first half (a rare guy who actually doesn't wait until the buzzer goes off before releasing the shot, my stars!)

He's not taking shots away from anyone. He's averaging 9 shots a game so far. If he takes many less, he turns into a Simmonsesque guy you don't even bother guarding.

It's fine. I hope it's not another season of Smart Watch every time he has a bad shooting night.

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I'm pro-Smart in most ways, but the idea that we somehow want him chucking up 9 threes in a game is ludicrous. The idea that an open Smart three should never be passed up is equally ludicrous.

He takes just under 6 threes per 36 minutes, which rates him 5th among the starters. It's a little more than I'd like to see, but not so many I am going to complain. But if he shoots one every time he gets the ball and is open, that's good for our opponents, not us. If he goes 1 for 9 in a game he needs to rein himself in.

This team is simply loaded. I will enjoy the season but it’s now at the point where expectations ruin the fun a bit. I enjoy overachiever energy for the regular season. Now it’s just a please get healthy for and stay healthy during the playoffs thing because we have the best team.

Eddie Jurak said:

I'm pro-Smart in most ways, but the idea that we somehow want him chucking up 9 threes in a game is ludicrous. The idea that an open Smart three should never be passed up is equally ludicrous.

He takes just under 6 threes per 36 minutes, which rates him 5th among the starters. It's a little more than I'd like to see, but not so many I am going to complain. But if he shoots one every time he gets the ball and is open, that's good for our opponents, not us. If he goes 1 for 9 in a game he needs to rein himself in.

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But he didn’t take it every time he was open. He often kicked for a better shot. He shot poorly last night but his shot selection was pretty good.

Just a bit outside said:

But he didn’t take it every time he was open. He often kicked for a better shot. He shot poorly last night but his shot selection was pretty good.

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If he's taking 9 threes per game and missing 8, then he's taking too many threes. At the same time, he shot 1-2 from 2, which was too few.

Eddie Jurak said:

I'm pro-Smart in most ways, but the idea that we somehow want him chucking up 9 threes in a game is ludicrous. The idea that an open Smart three should never be passed up is equally ludicrous.

He takes just under 6 threes per 36 minutes, which rates him 5th among the starters. It's a little more than I'd like to see, but not so many I am going to complain. But if he shoots one every time he gets the ball and is open, that's good for our opponents, not us. If he goes 1 for 9 in a game he needs to rein himself in.

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If Smart gets nine wide open shots that result from an action, he needs to keep shooting them regardless of whether he has one or nine makes.

Results oriented coaching typically yields poor results. If the offense is designed to find the open player who is then supposed to shoot, deviating from that because execution isn't great is essentially shooting yourself in the foot. If Smart doesn't have it that night, change the personnel or gameplan. But abandoning the playbook is silly imo.

Eddie Jurak said:

If he's taking 9 threes per game and missing 8, then he's taking too many threes. At the same time, he shot 1-2 from 2, which was too few.

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That’s not how it works though. Smart, or anyone for that matter, don’t have the luxury of knowing the result of their shot prior to taking them. If he has an open three “in rhythm” then he should be shooting it or else it screws up the entire set since his teammates expect each other to take these shots in rhythm.

Eddie Jurak said:

I'm pro-Smart in most ways, but the idea that we somehow want him chucking up 9 threes in a game is ludicrous. The idea that an open Smart three should never be passed up is equally ludicrous.

He takes just under 6 threes per 36 minutes, which rates him 5th among the starters. It's a little more than I'd like to see, but not so many I am going to complain. But if he shoots one every time he gets the ball and is open, that's good for our opponents, not us. If he goes 1 for 9 in a game he needs to rein himself in.

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And this is exactly what he did.

He took 5 in the first quarter, 4 of them wide open.
He took 2 in the second quarter, one wide open, the other a backcourt heave at the buzzer.
He took 2 in the third quarter, both wide open.
He took zero in the 4th quarter.

So after hitting 1 for his first 5, he only took 3 in his final 30 minutes on the floor (I'm taking out the backcourt heave, I think that's fair)
The last one he took was with 8:29 left in the third quarter.

Consider him reined.

If he takes 9 threes every game, that's probably not going to work since he likely won't have that many wide open looks.
If he takes 9 in the rare games he has a ton of wide open looks, and ends up averaging 5 or 6 like he's done the last three seasons, it's probably the right amount.

Certainly don't think it's worth another year of bellyaching about it.

mcpickl said:

Is it settling when he's wide open?

He's shot 38% on wide open 3s the last two seasons, I'd classify 7 of his shots as wide open last night. He toom one bad one in the first quarter and a backcourt heave at the end of the first half (a rare guy who actually doesn't wait until the buzzer goes off before releasing the shot, my stars!)

He's not taking shots away from anyone. He's averaging 9 shots a game so far. If he takes many less, he turns into a Simmonsesque guy you don't even bother guarding.

It's fine. I hope it's not another season of Smart Watch every time he has a bad shooting night.

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I've liked Smart for years. I've been saying he's the de facto team Captain for years. I was in favor of punting Kemba and having Marcus play PG for years.

That being said I went back and checked out his 3pt FGA from the game. Marcus stopped launching 3s with 8:29 left in Q3, so that's cool. Good recognition on his part when the game was tight/in balance. That follows along with his high basketball IQ

There was a buzzer-beater half-court attempt. So toss that out
I'd classify 5 as open Also plenty of shot clock left on those 8 attempts. Marcus will have the ball in his hands a lot this year. I like when he works for the best shot and distributes (also mentioned his 8 assists)

When he is "wide open", he should go ahead and launch. 38% still puts him behind several other teammates on the floor ( and why I also mentioned better options). I doubt he turns into Simmons-esque by being more selective. When Marcus attacks the rim, drives, draws and dishes for open step in 3s from his teammates they are "their best selves". YMMV

Then again if he finds himself wide open from 3 a lot this season there is probably a reason why (besides Orlando's defense)

I hope this isn't another season of posts being taken out of context mixed in with snark

Koufax said:

Except that Nesmith was far more athletic, could be a real pest on defense and could rebound better. The Nesmith of our dreams was better than the real Hauser who in turn is far more useful than the real Nesmith.

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Nesmith [very] occasionally got some nice blocks, but he was godawful defensively. His athleticism didn't change the fact that he couldn't shuffle sideways so he had to take full steps to stay in front of people, which left him out of position and lousy in team concepts. His athleticism did help him rebound a bit better, but also led to really dumb fouls and again left him out of position frequently. His faults would have been fine with an NBA player in the first half of their rookie season, but were inexcusable for a player finishing up year 2. His ceiling everywhere other than shooting was (and I guess still is) higher than Hauser, but he hadn't made any steps towards that ceiling in 2 full years.

By the end, there was absolutely nothing redeeming about his play here.

benhogan said:

I've liked Smart for years. I've been saying he's the de facto team Captain for years. I was in favor of punting Kemba and having Marcus play PG for years.

That being said I went back and checked out his 3pt FGA from the game. Marcus stopped launching 3s with 8:29 left in Q3, so that's cool. Good recognition on his part when the game was tight/in balance. That follows along with his high basketball IQ

There was a buzzer-beater half-court attempt. So toss that out
I'd classify 5 as open Also plenty of shot clock left on those 8 attempts. Marcus will have the ball in his hands a lot this year. I like when he works for the best shot and distributes (also mentioned his 8 assists)

When he is "wide open", he should go ahead and launch. 38% still puts him behind several other teammates on the floor ( and why I also mentioned better options). I doubt he turns into Simmons-esque by being more selective. When Marcus attacks the rim, drives, draws and dishes for open step in 3s from his teammates they are "their best selves". YMMV

Then again if he finds himself wide open from 3 a lot this season there is probably a reason why (besides Orlando's defense)

I hope this isn't another season of posts being taken out of context mixed in with snark

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If Smart is a 38% 3-point shooter on wide open shots, and he's passing up open 3s in the halfcourt, that would be inexcusable.

Fortunately, he doesn't do that, because Marcus Smart is smart and good at basketball.

This all seems like a massive overreaction to a 1-9 game.

Eddie Jurak said:

If he's taking 9 threes per game and missing 8, then he's taking too many threes. At the same time, he shot 1-2 from 2, which was too few.

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He’s not taking 9 threes per game and missing 8. He took 9 threes in a game (really 8 because of the heave) and missed 8 (really 7). Those aren’t at all the same thing, and I’m pretty sure you know it.

While part of good offense is creating good looks, a lot of it is recognizing what the opposing team is leaving open and taking advantage of it. If other teams are conceding Smart open threes, he’s a good enough shooter that he needs to take them. Anything else lets the other team actively concede that shot and helps them make the shots we want even more even harder to get. Unless someone can make the case that Smart taking open threes is actually a bad shot, people need to stop complaining when he has a bad night shooting. It’s basketball, everyone has bad nights shooting unless they never shoot.

benhogan said:

I've liked Smart for years. I've been saying he's the de facto team Captain for years. I was in favor of punting Kemba and having Marcus play PG for years.

That being said I went back and checked out his 3pt FGA from the game. Marcus stopped launching 3s with 8:29 left in Q3, so that's cool. Good recognition on his part when the game was tight/in balance. That follows along with his high basketball IQ

There was a buzzer-beater half-court attempt. So toss that out
I'd classify 5 as open Also plenty of shot clock left on those 8 attempts. Marcus will have the ball in his hands a lot this year. I like when he works for the best shot and distributes (also mentioned his 8 assists)

When he is "wide open", he should go ahead and launch. 38% still puts him behind several other teammates on the floor ( and why I also mentioned better options). I doubt he turns into Simmons-esque by being more selective. When Marcus attacks the rim, drives, draws and dishes for open step in 3s from his teammates they are "their best selves". YMMV

Then again if he finds himself wide open from 3 a lot this season there is probably a reason why (besides Orlando's defense)

I hope this isn't another season of posts being taken out of context mixed in with snark

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But, these two comments go hand in hand.

Yes, there are several other teammates who shoot better than Marcus does when they are as wide open as he is.
Yes, the reason he finds himself wide open is because opponents know it is better to give Marcus a wide open three over many of his teammates getting a wide open three.

Therefore, it's much less likely Marcus teammates will eventually have a wide open three if Marcus passes up his wide open three.

That makes a Marcus wide open three a pretty good shot for Boston.

What did I take out of context from this quote that I bolded?

benhogan said:

https://www.celticsblog.com/2022/10/22/23418615/a-just-win-effort-10-takeaways-from-boston-celtics-orlando-magic

Marcus with 8 assists but 9 3pt attempts? Don't love him settling for 3s with so much shooting around him

Blake's energy on the bench is great, made a good hustle play late in the 3rd. We can live with 7-8 mpg of diving on the floor, taking charges, and solid passes/screens from an ex-superstar. Easing him into certain situations with limited minutes is the best way to take advantage of whatever he has left. Still want another BIG for Xmas

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Were you not complaining about him shooting 9 threes yesterday? What was out of context?

mcpickl said:

Were you not complaining about him shooting 9 threes yesterday? What was out of context?

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I said "don't love him settling with so much shooting around him"

settling = early shot clock 3s when not wide open, which he did 3X

wide-open 3s are fine

We are dancing around the binary here. Either you are ok with Marcus Smart taking open shots or you are not. We have a lot of word salads here hiding it but it seems pretty clear that there are some people who only want Smart taking layups etc.

There is really no practical choice that accounts for "good shots for Marcus". If you (not pointing at anyone in particular) aren't ok with him taking open looks, just admit it.

We can discuss it or not but its unrealistic to hold NBA players to a standard of only taking the shots they make.

.38 x 3 is 1.14 points per possession, by the way. There's no universe in which that is not only a good shot, but a great shot.

Smart’s first three in the third quarter was a horrible decision by him, even though it was an open three in early offense. The Celtics got on a nice run to start the second half, scoring six possessions in a row, four times by Tatum, in 2.5 minutes to push the lead to 9. After a Magic basket, Smart, who was 1-7 from deep at the time, hoisted up an open three, nine seconds into the possession, the first touch any Celtic had in scoring position that possession.

Tatum was on fire, getting to the rim four times, basically unstoppable. To me, at that point of the game, a savvy PG is going to make sure Tatum touches the ball that possession, to either get another layup, or to drive and kick if Orlando finally sags their defense to stop him. Instead, Smart bricks the three, the Magic score, he bricks another three, and they score again to make what could have been a double digit lead into a one possession game.

Besides letting the Magic into the game, Smart’s decisions to shoot coolered Tatum, who didn’t score again for 17 minutes of game time. Smart never took another shot in the game after clanging that second three of the quarter. I think criticism of Smart‘s shooting tends to be over the top, but his first three of the third quarter had a “I’m getting mine” look to it.

Fishy1 said:

.38 x 3 is 1.14 points per possession, by the way. There's no universe in which that is not only a good shot, but a great shot.

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In a vacuum, yes. So far this season, the Celtics are averaging 1.46 points per shot. Even though someone shooting 38% on open threes is a good option normally, there are actually better options for this offensive juggernaut.

Every Celtic who has made a basket this season has an eFG over 58%, besides the two PGs. They are number one in the league in two point shooting percentage, at 62.5%, probably due to pace, spacing, and the number of three point threats they play at the same time.

DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:

We are dancing around the binary here. Either you are ok with Marcus Smart taking open shots or you are not. We have a lot of word salads here hiding it but it seems pretty clear that there are some people who only want Smart taking layups etc.

There is really no practical choice that accounts for "good shots for Marcus". If you (not pointing at anyone in particular) aren't ok with him taking open looks, just admit it.

We can discuss it or not but its unrealistic to hold NBA players to a standard of only taking the shots they make.

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This is an oversimplification. There are some open looks he should take and others he should pass up, such as when there is a ton of time on the clock and he is sharing the floor with much better offensive players.

DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:

We are dancing around the binary here. Either you are ok with Marcus Smart taking open shots or you are not. We have a lot of word salads here hiding it but it seems pretty clear that there are some people who only want Smart taking layups etc.

There is really no practical choice that accounts for "good shots for Marcus". If you (not pointing at anyone in particular) aren't ok with him taking open looks, just admit it.

We can discuss it or not but its unrealistic to hold NBA players to a standard of only taking the shots they make.

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trying to flush out those 205 card-carrying members of your secret subset that wants Marcus traded?

the Green Scare has hit the Cellar

I plead the 5th

Eddie Jurak said:

This is an oversimplification. There are some open looks he should take and others he should pass up, such as when there is a ton of time on the clock and he is sharing the floor with much better offensive players.

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If an offense is designed to generate open looks for players, they need to take those looks - assuming there are no better open looks (this would be rare except maybe they are playing tanking teams) - regardless of who is on the floor.

Its been explained upthread but eschewing a clear shot will end up hurting the teams better shooters. But I guess if it prevents people from having to watch Smart's offense, that's fine.

The Celtics almost certainly cannot win a championship if Marcus Smart isn't allowed to take open looks.

DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:

If an offense is designed to generate open looks for players, they need to take those looks - assuming there are no better open looks (this would be rare except maybe they are playing tanking teams) - regardless of who is on the floor.

Its been explained upthread but eschewing a clear shot will end up hurting the teams better shooters. But I guess if it prevents people from having to watch Smart's offense, that's fine.

The Celtics almost certainly cannot win a championship if Marcus Smart isn't allowed to take open looks.

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This is absurd. Watch any Celtics game and you will probably see at least one player with an open look pass. Do you really think that is always a bad play?

I mean it is simply obvious that the Celtics offensive strategy is not "always take the first open shot." Because they don't.

The Port Cellar demands a whipping boy. With Ojeleye, Langford, Theis and Nesmith gone the bullseye moves to Smart. A 3-0 start is not good enough. It will never be good enough. All this negativity that’s in this town sucks. It stinks. It makes the greatest city in the world lousy.

TripleOT said:

Smart’s first three in the third quarter was a horrible decision by him, even though it was an open three in early offense. The Celtics got on a nice run to start the second half, scoring six possessions in a row, four times by Tatum, in 2.5 minutes to push the lead to 9. After a Magic basket, Smart, who was 1-7 from deep at the time, hoisted up an open three, nine seconds into the possession, the first touch any Celtic had in scoring position that possession.

Tatum was on fire, getting to the rim four times, basically unstoppable. To me, at that point of the game, a savvy PG is going to make sure Tatum touches the ball that possession, to either get another layup, or to drive and kick if Orlando finally sags their defense to stop him. Instead, Smart bricks the three, the Magic score, he bricks another three, and they score again to make what could have been a double digit lead into a one possession game.

Besides letting the Magic into the game, Smart’s decisions to shoot coolered Tatum, who didn’t score again for 17 minutes of game time. Smart never took another shot in the game after clanging that second three of the quarter. I think criticism of Smart‘s shooting tends to be over the top, but his first three of the third quarter had a “I’m getting mine” look to it.

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This makes no sense. Recent possessions where Tatum scores doesn’t call for the Celtics to abandon their offense. They should run the offense and take good shots when they are available unless there is an immediate option for a better shot. That is, a player should obviously pass out of an open above the break look if there’s an open corner three or layup available. Smart shouldn’t pass up open threes in rhythm to reset the offense.

JakeRae said:

This makes no sense. Recent possessions where Tatum scores doesn’t call for the Celtics to abandon their offense. They should run the offense and take good shots when they are available unless there is an immediate option for a better shot. That is, a player should obviously pass out of an open above the break look if there’s an open corner three or layup available. Smart shouldn’t pass up open threes in rhythm to reset the offense.

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This.

Now we are damning Smart for hypotheticals where he shoots an open look when better shooters have better shots. I don't see anyone arguing for that outcome here as its not even being discussed. But here we are...

3-0...

bigq said:

The Port Cellar demands a whipping boy. With Ojeleye, Langford, Theis and Nesmith gone the bullseye moves to Smart. A 3-0 start is not good enough. It will never be good enough. All this negativity that’s in this town sucks. It stinks. It makes the greatest city in the world lousy.

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I mean, there are and will always be people coming for Smart but this discussion is not that. It's possible to want Smart to be the Celtics PG, yet not think it helps the team for him to brick 5 threes in a quarter or that any time he can shoot he should. I mean "any time he can shoot he should" is absolute nonsense yet people are defending that.

Eddie Jurak said:

I mean, there are and will always be people coming for Smart but this discussion is not that. It's possible to want Smart to be the Celtics PG, yet not think it helps the team for him to brick 5 threes in a quarter or that any time he can shoot he should. I mean "any time he can shoot he should" is absolute nonsense yet people are defending that.

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I'd love to see the numbers comparing Smart's wide open 3 percentage to Tatum's guy-less-than-3ft-away 3pt percentage. If it says what I think it says, you need to decide if you have a problem with both of those shots or just the former. Or if it's just a "time left on the shot clock" thing.

Eddie Jurak said:

I mean, there are and will always be people coming for Smart but this discussion is not that. It's possible to want Smart to be the Celtics PG, yet not think it helps the team for him to brick 5 threes in a quarter or that any time he can shoot he should. I mean "any time he can shoot he should" is absolute nonsense yet people are defending that.

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First and second sentence, absolutely. Last one, I don't think so. I'm pretty sure what people are saying is when he has good looks he should usually shoot, which is quite different.

I was more put off my Jaylen last night than by Marcus. I felt like JB had very little energy from the get go (it was maybe the 3rd possession where he gave a really lackluster effort on a loose ball). The two had pretty similar nights.
JB: 4/16 overall, 1/6 from 3. 9 Rebounds, and 4 assists against 2 TOs. 12 pts. Remarkably led the Celts at +14.
MS: 2/11 overall, 1/9 from 3. 2 Rebounds, and 8 assists, also against 2 TOs. 6 pts. Remarkably ended at an even 0 in +/-.

Single game plus minus isn't much good, but yeah, Jaylen's shot wasn't falling so great. He dropped all the way down to 25PPG on .605 TS.