Got so used to the Dave Dombrowski approach to the offseason I forgot how it actually works. The suspense may actually kill me!
I would want two of May, Lux and Verdugo.If it's the Dodgers, I want May. If it's the Padres, I want Patino. Otherwise, no deal. To trade Mookie, they should get something special back - pretty good is not good enough.
Great point. He didn't waste time.Got so used to the Dave Dombrowski approach to the offseason I forgot how it actually works. The suspense may actually kill me!
Trade was announced before we even knew it was being discussed. Now it's back to hot rumor followed by 3 days of silenceGreat point. He didn't waste time.
I personally prefer Gray to May and would prefer to get any of Smith, Urias or Gonsolin over Verdugo.I would want two of May, Lux and Verdugo.
The rumors seem to be coming from the other teams - haven't seen much originating from the Boston media about the Sox side of this.Trade was announced before we even knew it was being discussed. Now it's back to hot rumor followed by 3 days of silence
His trades were mostly fine. Where he failed was rebuilding the farm and committing way too much to SP.Much prefer the Dombrowski way! See need, identify player, get player. I don’t get the criticism he gets - not every trade works for anyone and most of his worked very well! He built a heckuva team and most of the prospects he gave up are still prospects, nothing more.
I still believe if we’d resigned Kimbrel in the offseason we’d have had a much different result last season. Bullpen by committee only works for lesser teams. Throw the stats out the window. When a team has confidence - including a stud closer - it changes everything. Especially the pitching - from starters through proper slotting in the bullpen. Give me a stud at the front of the rotation and at the back of the bullpen and many things fall in place.
You seem to be unfamiliar with Kimbrel's 2019 season.Much prefer the Dombrowski way! See need, identify player, get player. I don’t get the criticism he gets - not every trade works for anyone and most of his worked very well! He built a heckuva team and most of the prospects he gave up are still prospects, nothing more.
I still believe if we’d resigned Kimbrel in the offseason we’d have had a much different result last season. Bullpen by committee only works for lesser teams. Throw the stats out the window. When a team has confidence - including a stud closer - it changes everything. Especially the pitching - from starters through proper slotting in the bullpen. Give me a stud at the front of the rotation and at the back of the bullpen and many things fall in place.
No, I’m not. I specifically said signed in the “offseason”. Big difference.You seem to be unfamiliar with Kimbrel's 2019 season.
When you don’t have a defined closer, that’s what you have.Here's one vote for an "I am an idiot"-style autocorrect for "bullpen by committee."
“Bullpen by committee” is always the case.Here's one vote for an "I am an idiot"-style autocorrect for "bullpen by committee."
Bullpens are committees by default. It's closer by committee.When you don’t have a defined closer, that’s what you have.
Despite analytics style baseball fandom, confidence doesn’t have a stat. And it matters most in baseball. When you have a dude on the back end it matters. When you don’t - and we didn’t - it matters.
A bullpen, by definition, is a committee(a group of people appointed for a specific function, typically consisting of members of a larger group). You're talking about a closer by committee.When you don’t have a defined closer, that’s what you have.
Despite analytics style baseball fandom, confidence doesn’t have a stat. And it matters most in baseball. When you have a dude on the back end it matters. When you don’t - and we didn’t - it matters.
Gimme a VDespite analytics style baseball fandom ...
Fixed that for you.Gimme a V
P
Gimme an O
O
Gimme an R
O
Give me a P
P
What's it spell?
Victory!
speier’s book gets at this. Dombrowski didn’t even know who Logan Allen was and didn’t care. He wanted Kimbrell and throwing in a generic A-ball pitcher wasn’t going to stop him. He agreed to the trade without even consulting the rest of the baseball operations team.His trades were mostly fine. Where he failed was rebuilding the farm and committing way too much to SP.
While his trades were mostly fine, one wonders if maybe he could have gotten Kimbrel without including Guerra or Logan Allen. He paid a premium to get trades done early. I don't necessarily believe that but that's what the argument is re trades. Also people always misinterpret "Our farm system sucks" with "Those trades sucked." Those trades happened quite awhile ago and have little to no bearing on the state of the farm right now.
Mauricio Dubon on the other hand...speier’s book gets at this. Dombrowski didn’t even know who Logan Allen was and didn’t care. He wanted Kimbrell and throwing in a generic A-ball pitcher wasn’t going to stop him. He agreed to the trade without even consulting the rest of the baseball operations team.
the same thing was true in the Tyler Thornberg trade. Red Sox player development saw Mauricio Dublin as a starting SS in the big leagues with a utility player floor. Dave Dombrowski saw a player blocked by Bogaerts and Pedroia and didn’t care about anything else except vastly overpaying for a middle reliever with 1-1/2 good seasons to his credit.
Dombrowski’s due diligence and logic in closing both those trades was the same as Lou Gorman exercised when he traded Bagwell for Anderson. Thankfully neither Allen nor Dubon is a future HOF. Unfortunately, Thornburg was worse than useless.
Especially since P91 got it right the 2nd time.In the age of mobile internet access we need to be a little more forgiving of autocorrect errors.
What's the difference? Not only do I not see a difference, I don't see the relevance of when they signed him. He sucked in 2019. Fortunately, he sucked for the Cubs courtesy of Theo and a $10 million dollar prorated contract (with another $33 million due down the road) rather than for us.No, I’m not. I specifically said signed in the “offseason”. Big difference.
Not only am I going to trust in Bloom to do this right, I'm going to reserve judgement until we see how the youngest of the potential get back pans out. Bloom has proven to be very good at targeting young talent so I have faith in him. If it were solely to dump Price, this could have been done weeks ago. Just keep in mind that there are limited trade partners with both the talent and payroll flexibility to make this happen. Better still, we seem to have two motivated buyers who are division rivals where one desperately needs to get into the playoffs and the other with it's own sense of urgency having lost each of the past World Series. In Chaim I trust.This is killing me. Hopefully the Sox focus on the quality of the return as opposed to just using Mookie to dump Price.
Chiam, that Chiam?Not only am I going to trust in Bloom to do this right, I'm going to reserve judgement until we see how the youngest of the potential get back pans out. Bloom has proven to be very good at targeting young talent so I have faith in him. If it were solely to dump Price, this could have been done weeks ago. Just keep in mind that there are limited trade partners with both the talent and payroll flexibility to make this happen. Better still, we seem to have two motivated buyers who are division rivals where one desperately needs to get into the playoffs and the other with it's own sense of urgency having lost each of the past World Series. In Chaim I trust.
No, the Red Sox current president of baseball operations, CHAIM Bloom.Chiam, that Chiam?
The obvious difference is that he would have at a full spring training with the team. Not only the work outs themselves but the continuity of being his teammates, etc. As to 2018, he didn't suck. His lack of control made for some tense moments but he was mostly lights out. You may remember that his daughter had heart surgery at the beginning of that year and he missed some of spring training then as well.What's the difference? Not only do I not see a difference, I don't see the relevance of when they signed him. He sucked in 2019. Fortunately, he sucked for the Cubs courtesy of Theo and a $10 million dollar prorated contract (with another $33 million due down the road) rather than for us.
Kimbrel didn't exactly sign with the Cubs and pitch for them the following day. He signed with Chicago on June 7th and made his debut for them nearly three weeks later on the 27th. He had an additional three months to prepare himself for the season and quite honestly I'm not sure what continuity has to do with anything. Perhaps some level of comfort with his catcher, but he flat out wasn't very good by Kimbrel standards when he was on the field.The obvious difference is that he would have at a full spring training with the team. Not only the work outs themselves but the continuity of being his teammates, etc. As to 2018, he didn't suck. His lack of control made for some tense moments but he was mostly lights out. You may remember that his daughter had heart surgery at the beginning of that year and he missed some of spring training then as well.
Wait. What? This would be Bloom’s first ever deal. What evidence do you have that Bloom is very good at anything?Not only am I going to trust in Bloom to do this right, I'm going to reserve judgement until we see how the youngest of the potential get back pans out. Bloom has proven to be very good at targeting young talent so I have faith in him. If it were solely to dump Price, this could have been done weeks ago. Just keep in mind that there are limited trade partners with both the talent and payroll flexibility to make this happen. Better still, we seem to have two motivated buyers who are division rivals where one desperately needs to get into the playoffs and the other with it's own sense of urgency having lost each of the past World Series. In Chaim I trust.
Hear, hear! I don't know why I keep checking this thread, but every once in a while, someone says something sensible.Not only am I going to trust in Bloom to do this right, I'm going to reserve judgement until we see how the youngest of the potential get back pans out. Bloom has proven to be very good at targeting young talent so I have faith in him. If it were solely to dump Price, this could have been done weeks ago. Just keep in mind that there are limited trade partners with both the talent and payroll flexibility to make this happen. Better still, we seem to have two motivated buyers who are division rivals where one desperately needs to get into the playoffs and the other with it's own sense of urgency having lost each of the past World Series. In Chaim I trust.
every once in a while, someone says something sensible
Not sure I would call it his first deal ever. In this position perhaps, but he's been through this at a very high level under well known budgetary constraints. I believe his fingerprints are all over the model that Tampa has employed the past couple of years and they haven't been too shabby. He's been a big part in the Rays finding a way to be more than just competitive in the AL East. Here's a bit more on his background.Wait. What? This would be Bloom’s first ever deal. What evidence do you have that Bloom is very good at anything?
I’m not saying that he sucks but I think we should give him a little time before we grant Belichick or Theo status.
Oh I have nothing against Bloom. I think if they put Price in the deal its being forced by Henry. I just hope for the best return possible for Betts alone. Price being involved will probably kill the return.I get that. I don’t think that Bloom is dumb or incompetent, he’s obviously a smart guy who knows his stuff. But a. we can’t quantify exactly how much impact he had in the Rays front office (I will concede that it was probably substantial but IDK) and b. sometimes people are better suited for the back room, think tank positions. Being the final say might not be their best look.
By all accounts Ben Cherington is also a smart guy with a great pedigree but this job ate him up. Is Bloom like him? I have no idea.
Obviously I’m hoping that Bloom kicks ass and builds the Sox into a machine. But this is his first trade and it’s a fucking doozy. Not only that but he’s trading with his mentor and former boss, which makes me a bit nervous. Like I said, I hope he does well but maybe I’m a bit cynical, so I’m not going to blindly trust the dude. Yet.
I get what you're saying here, but I think/hope that having a division rival who seems seriously interested in Betts and has good young talent to give won't drive down the return of a Betts/Price package to LA too much. I'll take the fact that the deal hasn't been done yet as a sign of hope.Oh I have nothing against Bloom. I think if they put Price in the deal its being forced by Henry. I just hope for the best return possible for Betts alone. Price being involved will probably kill the return.
Not likely but there is also the possibility of sending JBJ and getting both Verdugo and Pollock. Wish someone had screenshot the tweet.If I’m LA and Price is in the deal, I want Boston taking back Pollock and I’m keeping Verdugo, who’s younger, cheaper, better and hedges better against not signing Mookie long term. But then is Gonsolin enough of a headliner for the Sox? Probably, if they add Ruiz or Downs (roughly equal to Gonsolin in value?) and another high ceiling lower level prospect. As a Sox fan, I wouldn’t be thrilled with that deal, but it’s fair, saves a ton of cash, and gives us pieces to work with now and next year+.
Forget it Jake, it's Cheesetown.Kimbrel didn't exactly sign with the Cubs and pitch for them the following day. He signed with Chicago on June 7th and made his debut for them nearly three weeks later on the 27th. He had an additional three months to prepare himself for the season and quite honestly I'm not sure what continuity has to do with anything. Perhaps some level of comfort with his catcher, but he flat out wasn't very good by Kimbrel standards when he was on the field.
Clearly the motive in all of this is to shed payroll, but I don't see it being done at any cost, no pun intended. I'm not sure how heavily the "problems off the field" weigh into any of this. The thing with Eck was a couple of years ago and the Fortnight thing shouldn't be as big as it was. If you want to include injuries in all of that, then yeah there might be some level of concern there. As for punting, I'm sure that can be said without knowing the return and if it becomes Punto 2.0 and nets the Sox a Championship the following season I'm totally cool with that.Wouldn’t including Price, besides his salary, reveals they don’t want him around because of the problems off the field?
If they trade Betts and Price now, it is indicative they are punting and not really worried about the return. Punto 2.0.
Odds are he wasn't retiring a Red Sox. I'd be sicker if he left after the season with only a compensatory pick to show for it.I’m sick to my stomach thinking about Mookie in another team’s unis. That’s all I’ve got to say.
So ... it wasn't really done? Wondering why he didn't just edit the tweet to say deal was close, Price salary only hangup?Rosenthal tweeted that the deal was done (with Dodgers), and then deleted it. Deleted tweet said there was still discussions on Price's salary.
The way I see it is that Bloom is getting started a year early. Boston is not the place that will give a 400 million deal. So you're left with Betts leaving for a 4th round pick. It's already an uphill battle in the division. Verdugo has an absolute rocket for an arm and has adequate speed and could turn into a 20 homer guy who routinely hits .300. Thats a damn good building block. I just want to see this team get more talent than Verdugo in this deal. If he's the only real piece coming back then thats a major fail. If its Verdugo Ruiz and Downs/Gray for Betts and Price then its a win win. David Price is a good pitcher. 30 million dollars for Price is an overpay but 15-20 million certainly is fair market value. If its only Verdugo and lottery tickets then this ownership has failed this fan base by using their franchise player to dump a contract.I’m sick to my stomach thinking about Mookie in another team’s unis. That’s all I’ve got to say.