Anthony Davis: No Loyalty

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
30,504
No, they wouldn't necessarily take a "haul" they were offered right now from LA, knowing that exact "haul" will be just as available this summer when Boston can make their "haul" offer with the LA "haul" offer as a minimum baseline to beat. There is no downside to them waiting unless AD makes it untenable to keep him until the summer unless they're afraid of him slipping and falling at his house and tearing his achilles.

It sounds crazy to me to think the team that has the golden goose with multiple bidders for it somehow has less leverage than one of the bidders. Like, if I owned the Mona Lisa and lots of people were bidding for it, the bidder who has the most money doesn't have leverage over me. He'd just have to pay above the price I can get the second richest guy to bid for it. Even if there were time constraints like in the AD situation, I can always just say if you don't meet my price, I'll just sell Mona Lisa Davis to the second highest bidder right now. I'll give you five minutes to top his price. Tick...tick...tick...

"haul"
With respect to the bolded, you are basically saying that there is no downside until, tick...tick...tick..., there is downside.

I might have not been clear but I was simply talking about leverage with respect to NO-BOS, with what I thought was an implicit understanding that we are analyzing something that won't even begin to happen until July.

Note that NO has a good deal of leverage versus LAL because LAL doesn't seem to have any decent contingency plans and at the end of the day may be able to extract a "historic" haul from LAL prior to TRS.

Obviously, events of last night have changed the analysis somewhat if LAC decides to enter the bidding. The more bidders there are I agree the more leverage NO has.

But - let's say it's July 1 and Kawhi is still unsigned and TOR decides they can't act before hearing what KL does and NYK has the #4 pick. Even assuming LAC enters the bidding, who else is there? LAC can put together a decent package but don't we all know that DA could beat it if he wanted to?

As I said above, if NO really had all the leverage, they could extract JT, JB, and MS from the Cs and be back into contention almost immediately. As the way things stand today, they don't have that much leverage and aren't going to get near that return. Fortunately for us.
 

Big John

New Member
Dec 9, 2016
2,086
I'm just waiting for the last minute "swoop" by a team like Toronto.

If no godfather deal materializes now, the Lakers will be sniffing around again in July with the same offer. And if the Knicks get ZW, waiting could be a big win.
 

Gunfighter 09

wants to be caribou ken
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2005
8,548
KPWT
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25933114/how-tatum-kyrie-boston-shape-anthony-davis-trade-talks
Lowe has a big piece out today about the AD situation.

My main takeaway is that Tatum's value nationally, and with NO, is higher than his value on this board, or with me personally.
Smart of Ainge to get their mouthpiece into the game late, rather than early. Clearly Jeannie used Ramona too soon.


I kid.

Zack captures Demp's dilemma well, it really comes down to what the Pels think of the Lakers' guys, how long they are willing to living in trade AD prison and the whims of Kyrie Irving.
 
Last edited:

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
31,212
Lowe is certainly no mouthpiece---it's pretty silly to compare him to Ramona, imo. If the article were Gary Washburn, sure.... but that's very very different.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
53,850

OnWisc

Microcosmic
SoSH Member
Apr 16, 2006
6,844
Chicago, IL
Smart of Ainge to get their mouthpiece into the game late, rather than early. Clearly Jeannie used Ramona too soon.
I'm not sure there's anything the Lakers could've done. I'm increasingly of the mindset that the Pels subdued reactions to Magic's entreaties are less a negotiating ploy and more due to genuine disinterest in anything LA has to offer. The players are middling and one doesn't even want to play in NO, and any draft picks are probably a longshot to be out of the 20+ range except maybe 2025 which is more of a crap shoot. LA has basically constructed a Voltron out of mediocre assets and is hoping that New Orleans is overwhelmed by how big it is.

I don't think there's any amount of posturing LA can do that will make New Orleans afraid of walking away from their offer and I don't think - at this point - Demps sees waiting until the summer as even a gamble. I honestly think anything short of all the firsts LA is free to deal doesn't even stir NO. Even if he's resigned to taking a handful of coins for a dollar, Demps is going to wait for someone who can at least throw in a couple quarters instead of just settling for a big pile of pennies and nickels.
 
Last edited:

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
12,001
Which is weird, because during the postseason last year, there were posts saying his ceiling was top 5 or 10 NBA player.
We all, myself included, get too mad at the fadeaway 2s, and lose track of the fact that he's a fast-learning 20 year-old with #1 scorer upside who already is a menace on D. There just aren't a ton of those guys out there, and everyone knows it.
 

Gunfighter 09

wants to be caribou ken
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2005
8,548
KPWT
Lowe is certainly no mouthpiece---it's pretty silly to compare him to Ramona, imo. If the article were Gary Washburn, sure.... but that's very very different.

They do different things. Ramona's the third best insider in the NBA after Woj and Shams and is one hell of a writer. You won't see her doing Zack Lowe style film breakdowns. The fact that she can also do that while covering other sports (specifically MMA and football) is very impressive. And she is a fellow Raider fan, and therefore amazing.

Lowe's more of an analyst than an insider, though he clearly has a ton of connections and gets good info from people in the league. But, just like Ramona is a close personal friend with Jeannie Buss, Lowe is an admitted lifelong Celtics fan and makes no effort to hide his contempt for the Laker' media hype machine.


From a NOLA based reporter:
This morning:


Source: Pelicans 50-50 on Anthony Davis, Lakers trade right now. Could truly go either way. Polarizing decision. Some love Lakers haul of players/picks. Others will chastise them for lack of patience. Same goes for waiting, especially if Boston offer isn’t as strong as expected.

Last night:


Source: Some in Pelicans organization lobbying leadership “don’t be stubborn,” do deal w/Lakers. But what people have to realize, Mickey Loomis, not Dell Demps, ultimately making decision & Loomis is very patient. LA deal could still happen, but Pels likely wait till summer.
The part about Mickey Loomis (the Saints GM) having more sway with the Bensons than Demps makes quite a bit of sense. I dont know that I have ever viewed Loomis as "patient" though. When I think of Mickey Loomis I think of a great drafter who knows how to walk a salary cap tightrope and get out of players (Jimmy Graham and Junior Gallette come to mind) at exactly the right time.
 
Last edited:

cheech13

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 5, 2006
1,608
Wait. What? This is what you wrote earlier in the thread:



This is very astute! I feel like current me and old you should be agreeing. If the Pelicans don't like the centerpiece(s) of the deal, it shouldn't matter how many marginal assets are included in that deal. This report said they don't want Lonzo. Maybe it's Ingram. But let's say they happen to not like Ingram's game for what they would hope to build post-AD. Which of the Lakers' young guys is definitively more valuable to NO than the MEM pick? I don't think it's crazy to say there isn't a clear answer.

If I were in charge of a rebuild in NO, I'd rank the Celtics' and Lakers' assets as such:

1. Tatum
2. MEM pick
3 (tie). SAC pick / Brown (depends what NO wants in terms of a timeline)
5. Lakers 1st round picks and pick swaps 2022-2025 (these move up to no. 2, if you think LeBron is getting injured or retiring prematurely just as these convey. But with LeBron there and it being LA, I think they replenish mid-course and add another star closer to AD's age, so these picks stay in the 20s for most of this period)
6. Ball (extra year of control compared to Ingram; you could flip him)
7. Hart (seems like a solid guy, and with Brogdon-lite potential)
8. TimeLord (could be defensive anchor and lob machine, doesn't need the ball)
9. Lakers 1st round picks and pick swaps 2019-2021
10. Celtics future 1st round picks (say 2020-2024)
11. Ingram (admittedly, I just don't get his appeal)
12. Kuzma (gets you buckets but useless for a team in purgatory)

But if the Pelicans want to recreate the 2016-17 Lakers, only with Jrue Holiday instead of LeBron, they're free to try and save the franchise that way. And your point that "any team" could beat the Celtics' low-ball offer misses the point. No team (other than the several I mentioned) that could, would. Because they'd be mortgaging their future for one year of a grumpy and possibly pretending-to-be-injured AD.

EDIT: I don't know where to rank S&T Rozier, Morris, Smart, etc., but you get the point.
I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you're a Celtics fan, right?

Ranking the assets 1 through whatever is impossible; you have no idea how other teams value the assets relative to one another. One team may want a PG, but not a wing. Some may want to avoid Ball's dysfunctional family. It's easier to slot them into tiers based on perceived value around the league.

TIER 1 (Premium Asset or Talent): Tatum
TIER 2 (Good Young Player or Asset): Brown, Ball, Ingram, Memphis pick
TIER 3 (Mid-tier Asset/Player): Kuzma, LAC pick, SAC pick
TIER 4 (Sweetener): Hart, Boston's or LAL's future 1st round picks
TIER 5 (Throw-ins): Williams, Zubac, Boston or LAL's future 2nd round picks

I didn't add Rozier, Smart, or Hayward. I don't think they move the needle for New Orleans, but they could be used reduce outgoing picks or balance bad salary coming back (like Solomon Hill).

Boston's offer is going to have to start with Tatum, Brown or the Memphis pick, the LAC or Sac pick, multiple first rounders and salary ballast.
 

moondog80

heart is two sizes two small
SoSH Member
Sep 20, 2005
8,105
I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you're a Celtics fan, right?

Ranking the assets 1 through whatever is impossible; you have no idea how other teams value the assets relative to one another. One team may want a PG, but not a wing. Some may want to avoid Ball's dysfunctional family. It's easier to slot them into tiers based on perceived value around the league.

TIER 1 (Premium Asset or Talent): Tatum
TIER 2 (Good Young Player or Asset): Brown, Ball, Ingram, Memphis pick
TIER 3 (Mid-tier Asset/Player): Kuzma, LAC pick, SAC pick
TIER 4 (Sweetener): Hart, Boston's or LAL's future 1st round picks
TIER 5 (Throw-ins): Williams, Zubac, Boston or LAL's future 2nd round picks

I didn't add Rozier, Smart, or Hayward. I don't think they move the needle for New Orleans, but they could be used reduce outgoing picks or balance bad salary coming back (like Solomon Hill).

Boston's offer is going to have to start with Tatum, Brown or the Memphis pick, the LAC or Sac pick, multiple first rounders and salary ballast.
I think that's more or less correct, other than Williams has to at least tier 4 at this point. I'd rather trade the LAC pick than Time Lord.
 

the moops

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 19, 2016
4,700
Saint Paul, MN
If NOP takes the Laker offer they gotta flip some of those players/picks for something else, right? I like Ball/Ingram/Kuzma but if LeBron couldn't do all that much with them, are they expecting Jrue to?
 

Auger34

used to be tbb
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
9,303
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25933114/how-tatum-kyrie-boston-shape-anthony-davis-trade-talks
Lowe has a big piece out today about the AD situation.

My main takeaway is that Tatum's value nationally, and with NO, is higher than his value on this board, or with me personally.
It does seem like the national media is overrating Tatum and underrating Jaylen Brown wildly.

I know that his start to the season got a lot of publicity and ink but, as we can all attest, his play has improved markedly within the last 2 months. It's pretty clear to me that he's a better asset to the Pelicans than anything the known contenders would be willing to throw in for Davis other than maybe SGA (Kuzma, Ball, Ingram, any Knicks asset not named Zion, Harrell, etc). Yet most of the media is treating him like he's on the Kuzma tier.

Can't forget what he did in the playoffs last year on the biggest stage against the toughest competition. Hopefully New Orleans remembers that too...

If trading Tatum instead of Jaylen means that we keep Marcus Smart and a couple of 1st round picks, I think I would trade Tatum and keep the secondary assets
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,406
around the way
If NOP takes the Laker offer they gotta flip some of those players/picks for something else, right? I like Ball/Ingram/Kuzma but if LeBron couldn't do all that much with them, are they expecting Jrue to?
Depends on your perspective. Lebron can't make a championship contender out of that flotsam, sure. But they're competing for the playoffs. If NO thinks that this group moves the needle toward the middle class and can start them down the path of respectability, then that might be a feature to them, not a bug. We're all programmed to shoot the moon or tank and decry middle class, borderline playoff hell. That's a fair point of view. But not every team's and GMs needs are the same. Not sucking might be their 3 year plan.
 

cheech13

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 5, 2006
1,608
It does seem like the national media is overrating Tatum and underrating Jaylen Brown wildly.

I know that his start to the season got a lot of publicity and ink but, as we can all attest, his play has improved markedly within the last 2 months. It's pretty clear to me that he's a better asset to the Pelicans than anything the known contenders would be willing to throw in for Davis other than maybe SGA (Kuzma, Ball, Ingram, any Knicks asset not named Zion, Harrell, etc). Yet most of the media is treating him like he's on the Kuzma tier.

Can't forget what he did in the playoffs last year on the biggest stage against the toughest competition. Hopefully New Orleans remembers that too...

If trading Tatum instead of Jaylen means that we keep Marcus Smart and a couple of 1st round picks, I think I would trade Tatum and keep the secondary assets
FWIW, the Ringer's trade value column, written by noted Boston homer/enthusiast Bill Simmons, had Jaylen Brown in the "Honorable Mention" portion with Kyle Kuzma. Lonzo Ball (53), Brandon Ingram (49) and Jayson Tatum (18) all placed in the top 55. I guess that your point is that ranking would be unfair, but I think the feeling is that he's a starter on a good team, but not an All-Star.
 

Auger34

used to be tbb
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
9,303
I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you're a Celtics fan, right?

Ranking the assets 1 through whatever is impossible; you have no idea how other teams value the assets relative to one another. One team may want a PG, but not a wing. Some may want to avoid Ball's dysfunctional family. It's easier to slot them into tiers based on perceived value around the league.

TIER 1 (Premium Asset or Talent): Tatum
TIER 2 (Good Young Player or Asset): Brown, Ball, Ingram, Memphis pick
TIER 3 (Mid-tier Asset/Player): Kuzma, LAC pick, SAC pick
TIER 4 (Sweetener): Hart, Boston's or LAL's future 1st round picks
TIER 5 (Throw-ins): Williams, Zubac, Boston or LAL's future 2nd round picks

I didn't add Rozier, Smart, or Hayward. I don't think they move the needle for New Orleans, but they could be used reduce outgoing picks or balance bad salary coming back (like Solomon Hill).

Boston's offer is going to have to start with Tatum, Brown or the Memphis pick, the LAC or Sac pick, multiple first rounders and salary ballast.
I just posted about this but I really don't get this tier system. Shouldn't Ball and Ingram be listed in Tier 3 with Kuzma? (Also that LAC pick should be in Tier 4 but that's a separate conversation)

Until this year, Ball and Ingram were on bad teams where they were primary options and should've put up strong counting numbers. Their numbers were mediocre. This year, you bring in LeBron and you would expect both of them to develop more and instead they have both stagnated.
So, for both of them other than the pedigree of being a top 3 pick, there's no positives that you can take away from their NBA development. Played on bad teams where they haven't learned great habits and neither showed the ability to be a primary option on a less talented team.

Meanwhile Brown has been brought up in the Celtics culture, learned positive habits and is a great defender. Not only that, he proved he could be a top option on a team that went deep into the playoffs.

What am I missing? Beyond where they were picked (and it's not like Jaylen is some 2nd round scrub, he was also a top 3 pick) what have Ball and Ingram done that would make them the same quality asset as Jaylen Brown?
 

queenb

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 6, 2016
236
I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you're a Celtics fan, right?

Ranking the assets 1 through whatever is impossible; you have no idea how other teams value the assets relative to one another. One team may want a PG, but not a wing. Some may want to avoid Ball's dysfunctional family. It's easier to slot them into tiers based on perceived value around the league.

TIER 1 (Premium Asset or Talent): Tatum
TIER 2 (Good Young Player or Asset): Brown, Ball, Ingram, Memphis pick
TIER 3 (Mid-tier Asset/Player): Kuzma, LAC pick, SAC pick
TIER 4 (Sweetener): Hart, Boston's or LAL's future 1st round picks
TIER 5 (Throw-ins): Williams, Zubac, Boston or LAL's future 2nd round picks

I didn't add Rozier, Smart, or Hayward. I don't think they move the needle for New Orleans, but they could be used reduce outgoing picks or balance bad salary coming back (like Solomon Hill).

Boston's offer is going to have to start with Tatum, Brown or the Memphis pick, the LAC or Sac pick, multiple first rounders and salary ballast.
Perceived value around the league isn't any more knowable than who the Pelicans like.

I just keep seeing people saying Ball and Ingram are more valuable than the SAC pick, but nobody coming out and saying that the Pelicans would gladly trade the equivalent of the SAC pick -- no. 13 overall -- for Ball or Ingram this year if they could. The Pelicans' own pick is 11 right now. Would they obviously trade that for Ball or Ingram?
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Ingram has the same counting stats and better rate stats than Jaylen Brown. Jaylen Brown is good but very overrated on here.
 

Auger34

used to be tbb
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
9,303
FWIW, the Ringer's trade value column, written by noted Boston homer/enthusiast Bill Simmons, had Jaylen Brown in the "Honorable Mention" portion with Kyle Kuzma. Lonzo Ball (53), Brandon Ingram (49) and Jayson Tatum (18) all placed in the top 55. I guess that your point is that ranking would be unfair, but I think the feeling is that he's a starter on a good team, but not an All-Star.
Good point. I saw that too and it really gave me pause. Simmons is normally a Celtics honk so that column is definitely odd.

It's entirely possible that I am even more of a Celtics homer than Simmons is and don't realize it but I really disagree with BS there
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
We are talking about a guy who is scoring less than 13 a night who is a poor rebounder and terrible passer.
 

Auger34

used to be tbb
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
9,303
We are talking about a guy who is scoring less than 13 a night who is a poor rebounder and terrible passer.
That's where the situations the players were drafted into matters no? Brown hasn't had the chances or opportunities to put up the volume of shots or dominate the ball as much as Ingram and Ball have.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
That's where the situations the players were drafted into matters no? Brown hasn't had the chances or opportunities to put up the volume of shots or dominate the ball as much as Ingram and Ball have.
They have the same exact usage rate. People just overrate Jaylen Brown and ignore his first month completely. If Ingram was on the Celtics, we'd be talking about how great he is.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Brown averaged over 30 minutes a game last year. He took 1.4 less shots than Ingram per game, while playing 3 minutes less. It's not like he wasn't getting burn.

And Ball put up huge numbers, just not scoring numbers.
 

Rustjive

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 30, 2009
1,048
Ingram has the same counting stats and better rate stats than Jaylen Brown. Jaylen Brown is good but very overrated on here.
I'm sure you know about Jaylen's injury, but since he came back from being out in early December, Jaylen is putting up 19.9/6.5/2.0 per 36 on .481/.377/.709 shooting, .571 TS with plus defense (6th best SG by DRPM for the season). Since Ingram came back from his injury, he's put up 19.0/5.8/3.8 per 36 on .500/.263/.672 shooting, .552 TS with non-plus defense (58th best SF by DRPM).

Not sure who's overrated.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
I'm sure you know about Jaylen's injury, but since he came back from being out in early December, Jaylen is putting up 19.9/6.5/2.0 per 36 on .481/.377/.709 shooting, .571 TS with plus defense (6th best SG by DRPM for the season). Since Ingram came back from his injury, he's put up 19.0/5.8/3.8 per 36 on .500/.263/.672 shooting, .552 TS with non-plus defense (58th best SF by DRPM).

Not sure who's overrated.
Considering everyone on here thinks Brandon Ingram is cancer, I'm pretty sure he's not overrated.

Maybe around the league he is.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
12,001
Considering everyone on here thinks Brandon Ingram is cancer, I'm pretty sure he's not overrated.

Maybe around the league he is.
Again, if anyone in the league thought he was worth a lottery pick, that deal would likely be done already. I just don't see any indication that Ingram has much value; it's not a homer thing.

Brown had a ton more value after the playoff run last year. All reports were that if he had been part of a package for Kawhi, Kawhi would be a Celtic now. He's fallen off that some, but the national narrative is starting to like him again.

Ingram simply doesn't have the perceived value that comes from putting up 18ppg in a deep playoff run.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,094
They have the same exact usage rate. People just overrate Jaylen Brown and ignore his first month completely. If Ingram was on the Celtics, we'd be talking about how great he is.
Ingram is a career 3.9 WS player. Brown is 7.9. This year, they're 1.4 and 2.0, respectively. Not a perfect stat obviously but a decent index.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Again, if anyone in the league thought he was worth a lottery pick, that deal would likely be done already. I just don't see any indication that Ingram has much value; it's not a homer thing.

Brown had a ton more value after the playoff run last year. All reports were that if he had been part of a package for Kawhi, Kawhi would be a Celtic now. He's fallen off that some, but the national narrative is starting to like him again.

Ingram simply doesn't have the perceived value that comes from putting up 18ppg in a deep playoff run.
I don't think anyone offers a lottery pick for Jaylen Brown either. He's going to get paid far more than he is worth too.
 

ZMart100

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 15, 2008
3,190
What do people think Jaylen Brown's ceiling is?
Competent starter. They seem properly on the same tier to me. I'd probably rank them Ingram, Brown then Ball.

I wouldn't trade Brown for Ingram, but mostly because there isn't a ton of difference and I know how Brown fits on the Celtics.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
Again, if anyone in the league thought he was worth a lottery pick, that deal would likely be done already. I just don't see any indication that Ingram has much value; it's not a homer thing.

Brown had a ton more value after the playoff run last year. All reports were that if he had been part of a package for Kawhi, Kawhi would be a Celtic now. He's fallen off that some, but the national narrative is starting to like him again.

Ingram simply doesn't have the perceived value that comes from putting up 18ppg in a deep playoff run.
One reason why guys like Ingram, Jaylen.....and Otto Porter at same stage of his career......aren't highly valued in trades is that as productive young starters the teams are a year or two from having to pay them the max or close to max to retain them. None of these guys have that type of upside to "win" that max bet so their is downside to giving up assets for these type (or level) of players. Ingram and Jaylen are both going to get paid when their rookie contracts are up.....it's just a matter of which teams position themselves to be the ones to do it. They could become Jeff Green or they could be Oladipo.....but most likely somewhere in the middle which is no mans land for max contracts.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
One reason why guys like Ingram, Jaylen.....and Otto Porter at same stage of his career......aren't highly valued in trades is that as productive young starters the teams are a year or two from having to pay them the max or close to max to retain them. None of these guys have that type of upside to "win" that max bet so their is downside to giving up assets for these type (or level) of players. Ingram and Jaylen are both going to get paid when their rookie contracts are up.....it's just a matter of which teams position themselves to be the ones to do it. They could become Jeff Green or they could be Oladipo.....but most likely somewhere in the middle which is no mans land for max contracts.
Right, Otto Porter on his rookie contract is pretty great. Otto Porter on the max is shit.
 

Marbleheader

Moderator
Moderator
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2004
11,726
Can someone explain what the point of not being able to trade for 2 Rose Rule players is? If a team smartly uses its assets, why hamstring them from being able to make 2 such deals? Especially in the era of the free agent superteam trend. I don't really understand why that restriction is in place. Right now, it would be in the best interest of 2 franchises.
 

cheech13

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 5, 2006
1,608
Perceived value around the league isn't any more knowable than who the Pelicans like.

I just keep seeing people saying Ball and Ingram are more valuable than the SAC pick, but nobody coming out and saying that the Pelicans would gladly trade the equivalent of the SAC pick -- no. 13 overall -- for Ball or Ingram this year if they could. The Pelicans' own pick is 11 right now. Would they obviously trade that for Ball or Ingram?
Teams in the lottery can't and shouldn't be moving their picks for non-star players close to free agency. You take the non-zero chance that the pick is something as good or better than Ball, Ingram or Brown knowing that even if they don't "hit" you still have four years of cost certainty and the ability to choose the player and mold them as you see fit. In a vacuum, Brown, Ball and Ingram would probably all be "worth" a late lottery pick, say something in the 10 to 15 range, but contract status and competitive timelines skew the value of the asset based on the buyer and seller.
 

sox311

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 30, 2004
1,753
That's what she said.
Can someone explain what the point of not being able to trade for 2 Rose Rule players is? If a team smartly uses its assets, why hamstring them from being able to make 2 such deals? Especially in the era of the free agent superteam trend. I don't really understand why that restriction is in place. Right now, it would be in the best interest of 2 franchises.
It seems to be an attempt to do what the Designated Player Contracts attempted as well. It seems both have failed miserably.

Meaning, the DPE didn't keep Boogie in Sacramento. Didn't keep KD in OKC, has crippled the Wizards franchise even further than their GM could do alone. The DPE and Rose Rule will probably be squashed in the next CBA if not sooner.
 

cheech13

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 5, 2006
1,608
Can someone explain what the point of not being able to trade for 2 Rose Rule players is? If a team smartly uses its assets, why hamstring them from being able to make 2 such deals? Especially in the era of the free agent superteam trend. I don't really understand why that restriction is in place. Right now, it would be in the best interest of 2 franchises.
Essentially the Rose rule was created to allow teams to reward an MVP/All-NBA player that they drafted and developed by giving them a contract that wasn't otherwise permitted under the CBA. The catch was that the team could only give that contract once. Trading for two players on this deal would be a workaround of that limit in violation of the CBA.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
Right, Otto Porter on his rookie contract is pretty great. Otto Porter on the max is shit.
We'll likely be saying the same about both Ingram and Jaylen which was my point as to why they are highly in demand in trades.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Ingram and Brown are up for contracts next year. The only players teams trade lottery picks for now are established stars... or Jeff Green.
 

Marbleheader

Moderator
Moderator
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2004
11,726
Essentially the Rose rule was created to allow teams to reward an MVP/All-NBA player that they drafted and developed by giving them a contract that wasn't otherwise permitted under the CBA. The catch was that the team could only give that contract once. Trading for two players on this deal would be a workaround of that limit in violation of the CBA.
But you can have two players on the same team, just can't trade for two of them. Seems like an odd restriction. Pelicans could have Tatum for two runs with Davis. I'm not so sure they can maximize their asset for a single run.
 

TripleOT

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2007
7,758
What do people think Jaylen Brown's ceiling is?
If Brown was drafted third by a scrub team, and got to play 35 meaningless minutes a night for a 25 win team, I can see him a relatively efficient 20 ppg scorer. I rate him a bit higher than Ingram and Ball, but on the same tier.

Tatum
Griz Pick
Brown, Ingram, Ball,
Kuzma, Rozier, Clippers, Sacto pick.
Zubac, Hart, Williams, Lakers picks, Celtics pick
 

cheech13

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 5, 2006
1,608
But you can have two players on the same team, just can't trade for two of them. Seems like an odd restriction. Pelicans could have Tatum for two runs with Davis. I'm not so sure they can maximize their asset for a single run.
No, you're only allowed one Rose rule player per roster. It's why Minnesota ultimately had to trade Kevin Love. They declined to give him the Rose contract because they wanted to save it for Ricky Rubio and as a result Love was slated to hit free agency two years earlier than he needed to.