I think it’s the play unless Kyrie is all in to resign. Heck, maybe even if he is.
Kyrie speculation
- Thread starter DJnVa
- Start date
Reporter: Hey Kyrie, do you still feel the same way you did when you announced that you wanted to re-sign with the Celtics?
Kyrie: Yes
The story writes itself
Yes, this is all 100% correct. The scenario I outlined was contingent on Kyrie suspecting/knowing that AD would wind up in LA one way or another. But I guess Davis doesn't have the leverage, short of threatening to pull a Kawhi, to force a trade specifically to the Lakers. Anyway, just a thought.
Seems like a Western Conference contender would be the likely landing spot in a potential Kyrie trade. Most of those teams already have superstar guards, though, so potential suitors would be limited. The only obvious choice is to send him to Denver for IT, who'd miraculously regain his 2016-2017 form immediately upon touching the shamrock, and lead the Celts to the finals.
Yea maybe not. It'd be a cool story though.
The thread existing is people flipping out. Bucher is a nobody. I’m not sure why the board hasn’t grasped the hot take/throw shit against the wall aspect of media better by now. This is basically a redux of ‘TB and BB hate each other because of Guerrero’.
Of course there’s a non zero chance he resigns but there is always that and this is basically Felger/Mazz level shit to grab clicks. People are bored waiting for the super bowl, media and fans, and grabbing every straw they can.
Give me an estimate on the % of KI going to LA after he basically demanded for a trade to get away from LeBron? A phone call and a tweet video don’t mean shit. I have plenty of people I’m friends with that I wouldn’t want to work with. Fuck, my boss will be my best man at my wedding and I basically want to strangle him once a week. This is also to say nothing of the financial ramifications of walking away.
People are making way too much over this, in many aspects. So yeah, I think people should simmer a bit. Until it comes out of Kyrie’s mouth (and he’s not exactly one to hold shit back) color me unconcerned.
I try not to do this but I can't help myself. This is a fucking stupid thread. KI is signed to a currently team friendly contract and could be the most important piece that leads to the Cs wining a championship. He's not going to get traded this year. Even for AD.
And if KI decides that he doesn't want to sign with the Cs for the max, yes it won't be great but it won't be like the Cs aren't a potentially championship caliber team either.
And the stuff about KI wanting to go back to playing with LBJ? It would be completely out of character for a 26-27 year old superstar who says that he wants to be "the Guy" to stick his tail under his legs and go back to be LBJ's apprentice. I mean it's possible but it would be crazy nuts for KI to do this.
The Cs aren't hitched to KI, KI is hitched to the Cs.
Can we move on?
And if KI decides that he doesn't want to sign with the Cs for the max, yes it won't be great but it won't be like the Cs aren't a potentially championship caliber team either.
And the stuff about KI wanting to go back to playing with LBJ? It would be completely out of character for a 26-27 year old superstar who says that he wants to be "the Guy" to stick his tail under his legs and go back to be LBJ's apprentice. I mean it's possible but it would be crazy nuts for KI to do this.
The Cs aren't hitched to KI, KI is hitched to the Cs.
Can we move on?
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Once again, nobody is this thread is seriously suggesting that Kyrie will be traded. Furthermore, nobody is buying the story hook, line and sinker.
That said, while some here choose to dismiss the prospect of Irving leaving after the season, its still a possibility. If the C's miss out on Davis, Irving's chances of winning another ring likely take a hit. You may feel like that isn't a big deal to him but others here can justifiably speculate that it may change his commitment to the C's.
Finally, its fine if you are completely dismissive of the topic and are supremely confident in how the future will play out. But saying people are freaking out for a mostly rational discussion of a topic in this forum is a gross exaggeration. We are all free to sit out discussions and/ or laugh at the participants. Suggesting that the discussion stop because you don't agree with it is a bit harsh.
That said, while some here choose to dismiss the prospect of Irving leaving after the season, its still a possibility. If the C's miss out on Davis, Irving's chances of winning another ring likely take a hit. You may feel like that isn't a big deal to him but others here can justifiably speculate that it may change his commitment to the C's.
Finally, its fine if you are completely dismissive of the topic and are supremely confident in how the future will play out. But saying people are freaking out for a mostly rational discussion of a topic in this forum is a gross exaggeration. We are all free to sit out discussions and/ or laugh at the participants. Suggesting that the discussion stop because you don't agree with it is a bit harsh.
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Wait, what? Because he’s a weird mofo, or because it’s a bad contract for performance?
Sorry it's late and I didn't proof read. Point being, if KI doesn't want to sign with the Cs, it's not like the Cs are going to be the 2018-19 Cavs.
Kyrie's chances of winning a ring and being top dog are better with the Cs than any other team.
Look, I love watching KI play and he's certainly a difference maker but if KI turns down a 5/$180+MM extension to go play with the Knicks or something, I don't think DA loses a minute of sleep as those dollars can be re-allocated.
I don't have a crystal ball so I can't see the future but I will stand by my last statement: KI needs the Cs more than the Cs need him.
I agree with everything you've written except that we don't really know if Irving cares about winning and being a top dog. After having both in his career and then seen what the Warriors have done, maybe he has determined that winning beats everything, even if you have to team up with other alphas. We just don't know.
Also, agreed that even Irving leaves, the Cs will still be a good team and Ainge will find more talent.
Actually, this idea was pretty dumb, because AD isn't going to sty here to lead our kids - he'd be a rental if we did this.
Good point - we'll know what he cares about if he leaves.
This would be rough though - not a good look for the C's as they try to play the free agency game again.
No it's not. This thread was broken out of another one by a mod. And it's a story whether or not it's "true" or whether or not it's a writer stirring shit up.
Posting about things is not flipping out.
So I don't think that this is just a writer stirring shit up: the story seems fake, but there's a pretty clear purpose:
1. The Celtics are currently calling the Pelicans, trying to convince them that a better deal, probably involving Tatum, will be available in the summer.
2. The Lakers and Rich Paul want the deal to happen now, for obvious reasons, and need to convince the Pelicans that the Celtics deal will come off the table.
The only thing that could really take the Celtics deal off the table in the summer would be Kyrie leaving. So, if I were the Lakers/Paul, I would be strategically leaking the hell out of this story, and trying to create a "no smoke without fire" impression that the Pels need to deal now.
That's not the only explanation, and we should definitely be discussing the story, but it's the most likely imo.
1. The Celtics are currently calling the Pelicans, trying to convince them that a better deal, probably involving Tatum, will be available in the summer.
2. The Lakers and Rich Paul want the deal to happen now, for obvious reasons, and need to convince the Pelicans that the Celtics deal will come off the table.
The only thing that could really take the Celtics deal off the table in the summer would be Kyrie leaving. So, if I were the Lakers/Paul, I would be strategically leaking the hell out of this story, and trying to create a "no smoke without fire" impression that the Pels need to deal now.
That's not the only explanation, and we should definitely be discussing the story, but it's the most likely imo.
While this is undoubtedly correct, the reality is that Kyrie and his agent have their own interests at stake as well.
Kyrie is a great player, but he's not in the same tier as Anthony Davis. Also, Kyrie is in a good situation here in Boston, and he knows it, even if this season hasn't quite worked out as well he may have hoped. Up until the trading deadline, it is in Kyrie's best interest to say he wants to stay in Boston after this season, unless he wants to get traded to "Pittsburgh". Ainge would have no problem trading him if Kyrie started making actual noise about leaving, and there would be a good chance it would be to a team that is in less favorable position than the Celtics.
So Kyrie's agent should be saying just enough that Ainge feels that there is at least a reasonable chance of resigning Kyrie, while also maintaining enough leverage to keep options open in case the situation in Boston should change.
And, as noted, there are plenty of parties in the 2 largest cities in the US that want to raise doubts about Kyrie's tenure in Boston. Fortunately, Ainge has been around long enough to know all this.
It's also worth noting that while maybe folks thought we'd be at the top of the conference this year, our "demise" has been greatly exaggerated. Yes, obviously it's MUCH harder to win a series when you don't have home court but we're not crashing out of the postseason here. Grab the 3 or 4 seed and if we have to win a Game 7 on the road in Philly then Milwaukee or whatever, then hopefully the fact we have the best closer in the game right now will do it. That's why we got him.
The discussion down the stretch will be fun---"Do we want the 4 seed and get Milwaukee in second round and have TOR/PHI beat each other up on the other side?"
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That trade doesn't work with the cap. Kyrie and Al (and a pick or a swap) for AD and Jrue does work. If you're trading Kyrie, then get rid of Al's salary and age and remake the team. They aren't trending like they could win this year anyway.
Starters
PG -Holiday
SG - Brown
SF - Tatum
PF - Morris
C - AD
Bench
Rozier, Smart, Hayward, Baynes, Theis
Re-signing Morris becomes more of a possibility. Rozier not so much unless you flip Holiday and let him start.
Still keep some draft assets.
Hard to see it happening, but I absolutely love that lineup — especially with Smart replacing MaMo. A Holiday-Smart-Brown-Tatum-Davis starting 5 would be an absolute monster defensively (with Tatum presumably filling out as he ages), and that defense-minded 1-2-3 would allow the more touches and usage for Tatum to reach his poor-man's-KD/Kawhi potential.
It will be interesting to see what NOP actually get for AD given they have zero leverage. Why would the Celts give them Tatum? No other team - that could have a realistic chance to re-sign him - can match that.
Al (for salary), Jaylen (for redundancy given the Hayward albatross), and a pick or two.
Al (for salary), Jaylen (for redundancy given the Hayward albatross), and a pick or two.
Because the Pelicans likely will make any deal with Boston for Davis contingent on bringing in Tatum. What other teams can offer is only partly relevant. Ainge can hold firm on Tatum as his walk away price but he risks the Pelicans dealing away for what we/others might deem an inferior package.
The problem in evaluating these trades is that players and draft assets aren't really fungible. Furthermore, there are other considerations for Demps et al aside from getting the best absolute value, which is hard to determine, in return for AD.
Finally, given what we think we know about Ainge's Davis valuation, I would be surprised if Tatum is too high a price.
Right, the real question is whether just Tatum+filler would be enough. If it is, I can see Ainge preferring keeping Brown, Smart, and the MEM pick,given the Celtics' own track record with high lottery picks.
From a value basis the Holiday idea is really sound, but would Davis resign with Kyrie gone? Is Holiday/Hayward/Tatum/Brown enough to keep him around?
Not likely. Kyrie/Picks for Holiday/AD would need another team because Kyrie has very little value to them.
Celtics won't do this: it would be awful for them if Kyrie knew they were shopping him, AND Kyrie is the main reason they're confident that Davis would re-sign. This isn't happening.
If Kyrie hints that he's gone (unlikely), and another team him, the Celtics will just move him straight up and build from the young core and picks.
If Kyrie hints that he's gone (unlikely), and another team him, the Celtics will just move him straight up and build from the young core and picks.
I could see Denver giving us a package of Murray+ if Kyrie would agree to stay in Denver. I don't see Kyrie having much trade value at all without agreeing to resign with the team he's traded to.
Murray, Tatum, Brown. They'd have enough pieces to trade for 2 big names, but maybe not the salary to match. I wouldn't be opposed to keeping all 3 and letting them develop together either.
It's possible he would give those assurances to another team and not Boston. We don't know.
Personally, I think he's going to be on the Celtics next year with or w/o Anthony Davis
Question: Is it financially advantageous at all for Kyrie to re-sign this summer with the team that currently (or in the near future) holds his rights? To put it another way, assuming Kyrie is NOT traded, can Boston offer him more money than some other team (all other things being equal)?
Yes. The Celtics can pay him more than other teams.
Celtics now: about $101 million/4 years
Other team if he's FA: $139 million/4 years
Celtics in July: $188 million/5 years
It's fair to point out that the difference doesn't really get large until year 4, and the next contract that Irving signs will have an opt out after year three. This was the problem Utah ran into with Hayward. The premium through three years wasn't enough for him to turn down the opportunity to play with his old coach.
Right, with the size of player contracts, and increasing player health, the 5th year and slight extra percentage incumbents can offer doesn't matter.
We also now have two cases of the supermax not mattering to superstars.
Yes, I agree with everything you said, not just the quoted part. My point was that Ainge should have been keeping tabs on the situation all along, addressing any issues, and giving Kyrie the level of engagement that a GM would give any star player, in order to make the right read.
Maybe he just thinks playing with LBJ is the best way to maximize his potential.
Oh, I think he has been. As I suggested in my initial post on this topic, that's his job.
So, here's a crazy idea. 3 way trade between Celtics, Pelicans, and one of the top 5 teams in the NBA that is NOT the Warriors. Celtics get AD, said team gets Kyrie as a rental to try and win an NBA championship.
This summer Celtics still go hard after Kyrie to come back as a FA. Downside of this is the Kyrie gets less money, and potentially is insulted that Celtics traded him away. But, on the flip side, he maybe gets the experience of winning a championship somewhere.
I guess I'm just thinking that the only way Kyrie has trade value is to a team that looks at him as the final piece in winning a championship THIS year.
This summer Celtics still go hard after Kyrie to come back as a FA. Downside of this is the Kyrie gets less money, and potentially is insulted that Celtics traded him away. But, on the flip side, he maybe gets the experience of winning a championship somewhere.
I guess I'm just thinking that the only way Kyrie has trade value is to a team that looks at him as the final piece in winning a championship THIS year.
The final piece in winning a championship this year for any team besides the Warriors is an injury to Durant or Curry. Teams aren't going to sacrifice their future for a run, and wouldn't have any real pieces to add for a rebuilding team.
Us a team with three max contracts
Them a team with one max contract and almost nothing else on the roster
Why do THEY get to sign players?
Opt out wouldn't be til after year four if it's a five year deal, so the difference is still fairly significant.
Celtics don't have cap space this summer to sign Kyrie as an FA, not that he'd ever want to return after you traded him.
So yeah, crazy idea.
As advocate for this idea I’m clearly biased, but don’t think it’s dumb.
If you think AD is moving to the Lakers this deadline, then it’s now or never and you push your chips in... which of necessity means Kyrie.’
Obviously it’s not optimal, as you could conceivably create a package for AD this off-season where you keep Tatum and Kyrie. That said, I wouldn’t let either stand in his way.
Also don’t think Horford, Hayward, Smart, Tatum, Brown, etc are just ‘kids’
What I’m getting at is that it won’t be a five year deal. He’s going to want his 35% max as soon as he can get it.
So then you think he signs a 3 year deal with an opt out after 2 year two?
My guess is with his knee injury history he'd prefer to lock in more years. Could be wrong tho.
The story seems like BS for the reasons noted.
At the same time, I have no trouble seeing Kyrie wanting to move on if he thinks the Cs will not get enough or the right pieces to make them a legitimate contender. For whatever reason, this team has not jelled to the extent Kyrie probably anticipated. And there’s no denying that they play pretty well when he’s out. I also wonder if he views Hayward as a shadow of himself and a potential contractual albatross that will inhibit the Cs’ chance to put a championship squad together.
I’m in line with those who love his game but think he’s an odd duck and perhaps too mercurial to really count on to be a team leader.
Larry Bird seemed to make everyone around him better. Who on the Cs plays better with Kyrie? Maybe Horford and the Marcuses. Certainly not Tatum, Hayward, Rozier and Brown. I know, Larry is a tough comp for all players. Just noting.
At the same time, I have no trouble seeing Kyrie wanting to move on if he thinks the Cs will not get enough or the right pieces to make them a legitimate contender. For whatever reason, this team has not jelled to the extent Kyrie probably anticipated. And there’s no denying that they play pretty well when he’s out. I also wonder if he views Hayward as a shadow of himself and a potential contractual albatross that will inhibit the Cs’ chance to put a championship squad together.
I’m in line with those who love his game but think he’s an odd duck and perhaps too mercurial to really count on to be a team leader.
Larry Bird seemed to make everyone around him better. Who on the Cs plays better with Kyrie? Maybe Horford and the Marcuses. Certainly not Tatum, Hayward, Rozier and Brown. I know, Larry is a tough comp for all players. Just noting.
I've said this before-- Kyrie is figuring it out. His assists are up, his defensive effort is much better. But do they need him to win? The answer is clearly no in the regular season, but maybe the playoffs are different. For starters you need at least one player who gets star treatment from the officials to win close playoff games.
If that’s the case then they need to move on because Kyrie gets the least calls of any superstar ever. He’s like the anti-Harden.
True, but it’s less about the calls than his game I think. Where Harden’s seems genuinely engineered to flail into the defender for a foul, Kyrie is water bugging to the hoop avoiding contact.